Gay parents are at least as good as straight parents.

[gnomon]

No, they never will be because no matter how hard you try, the child will be lacking in understanding that they would get from having a normal family with a mother and a father.

Outstanding!

The child will lack in understanding that they would get from having a normal family with a mother and father.

What understanding would that be oh great prophet?

You say normal family. What's so normal about just having a mom and dad raise a child. There are so many other people involved directly with the raising of a child in most cultures. So worldwide, the Western nuclear family really isn't normal. Looking at the horrible job so many American couples do at that normalcy I would say you really are presenting no case whatsoever.

You just say it is.

Are you a prophet of God? Are you repeating LDS scripture? Are you repeating what the elders say?

I think you are representing none of these things. Next time, actually present evidence of something.

 

[UnTheist]

Next time, actually present evidence of something.

It'll never happen.

 

[Autodidact]

No, they never will be because no matter how hard you try, the child will be lacking in understanding that they would get from having a normal family with a mother and a father.

Do you have any research to support this assertion, is or is it just your private prejudice?

 

[Autodidact]

Oh God, I thought that I was clear on this, there is no reliable data

And I said, have you familiarized yourself with the research before making this assertion, or is it just an assumption on your part?

and I stated that the reason is that this is a new thing, I mean people wanting to marry another of same sex, wanting to adopt, how long this has been on?

It's bee going on forever, but I think it's been studied now for about 40 years.

How many people can we find is such position in the US?

About one of three lesbian households has kids in it.

Yes at present we just don’t know,

We have a pretty good idea.

but it seems that there are no intention of allowing this marriages and find out, that is the will of the majority.

So far. However, lesbian and gay couples are having kids with or without society's permission to marry.

So we just don’t know, if this are not marriages how can they adopt?

Single adults can adopt. I have one adopted child myself.

You are still hang up on the equality thing, all married couples can adopt if they meet the requirement, no one is disadvantaged.

Yeah, that gosh darned equality thing. I'm still hung up on it, you know, justice, freedom, that whole equality thing.

It was clear that this issue was resolved the only marriage that is accepted in the Us is between a man and a woman,

Take it to the gay marriage thread, emil.

and adoption is only permitted to married couples that meet the requirements, and one of them is that they would be able to be a role model.

You're mistaken.

A girl from her adopted mother and a boy from his adopted father. That’s the way it is.

What is the way what is?

To get an equal number of parent for the sample, we need first to find gay couples that are legally married and have adopted children, that would be a hard task in the US, don’t you think?

No, emil. Millions of lesbians have children, whether through adoption or insemination. It's been common for decades.

When I have time, I'll summarize the research for you.

 

[Random]

I grew up ****** up because I had a father. He was a drunk who ruined my youth and self-esteem, never taught me anything for reasons of his own selfishness, and spoilt my otherwise perfect relationship with my mother. I hated him, and since have only learnt to suffer him with indifference.

Problem is, these sorts of problems can happen with same-sex parents too, its human thing - not just a sex or orientation thing. To say gay parents are at least as good as straight ones seems to me to be the same thing as my saying I would have turned out great if I'd only been raised by my mother alone, as a single parent.

You (I) just don't know if it's true or not. How, I wonder, do single parents compare with gay ones? Statistically I mean. I couldn't even begin to imagine where to start on that one.

It's a good thread though, Autodidact.

 

[Autodidact]

Unless I have missed them whilst skimming through, I believe the studies you speak of concerning the effectiveness of same sex parenting are yet to be produced? If you could actually present them for me to look at, I feel this discussion could be much more productive.

Yes, you did miss something. There are hundreds of such studies, and as soon as time permits I will summarize them for you.

As it stands, I do think that it would be logical to find that your average same-sex parents do a better job than your average heterosexual parents. This is for the very reasons that have already been presented: -
- It is harder for same-sex couples to adopt, and thus for a same sex couple to obtain children they have to be of a higher standard than their heterosexual 'competitors' (for want of a better term).
- Since it is impossible for same-sex couples to conceive together naturally without assistance, they will not have children by accident, and thus the child will be more likely to be brought up in a stable environment, as opposed to a heterosexual couple who might have children at entirely the wrong time.

Thus I would say the average performance of same-sex parents is kept artificially high when placed into comparison with heterosexual parenting. I do not see how a decent comparison can be reasonably or easily made.

Which is why I want to review your studies.

I was following you and nodding until I got to "artificially high." What does this mean in this context. Gay parents do better than straight for valid reasons (there's a couple more too which I will lay out also as time allows) but this is "artificial" because...I mean, if they really do a better job, why is that artificial? That's actual, isn't it?

Why can't we do a decent comparison. You take a matched group of straight and lesbian families. You decide what trait you want to measure. Then you measure it, using good, blind methods. And you see how the kids turn out. For example, does one group have a higher percentage of criminal involvement? High school drop out rate? Teen preganancy? Adult divorce? Adult homosexuality? Overall mental health? Happiness? Whatever you want to measure.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Yes, you did miss something. There are hundreds of such studies, and as soon as time permits I will summarize them for you.

That was what I meant in the first place. It sounded like you were holding your cards to your chest - I wasn't implying that there are not any such studies, merely that you haven't said which you are referring to in order to support your statement that gay parents are at least as good as straight ones.

I was following you and nodding until I got to "artificially high." What does this mean in this context. Gay parents do better than straight for valid reasons (there's a couple more too which I will lay out also as time allows) but this is "artificial" because...I mean, if they really do a better job, why is that artificial? That's actual, isn't it?

Why can't we do a decent comparison. You take a matched group of straight and lesbian families. You decide what trait you want to measure. Then you measure it, using good, blind methods. And you see how the kids turn out. For example, does one group have a higher percentage of criminal involvement? High school drop out rate? Teen preganancy? Adult divorce? Adult homosexuality? Overall mental health? Happiness? Whatever you want to measure.

I would assume that the main method of heterosexual couples obtaining children is by reproduction, and the main method of homosexual couples obtaining children is via adoption. The former is a pretty much unchecked method of getting children, the latter protected by vigorous checks and expectations. By artificially high, I meant that if you were to do a flat out comparison as to, say, the percentage of abuse cases in the children of straight and homosexual couples, homosexual couples would probably come out favorably in the main part because of that fact - likely abusers would be rooted out by the adoption system.

That is what I meant when I said comparison too - a flat out comparison between the two. Off the top of my head, I can construct a set of parameters that would help alleviate the disparity. One of those is that we only look at homosexual and heterosexual couples who adopted their children. But in the end, given the massive variances between families, I do think there are a truckload of confounding factors that make it hugely difficult to focus exclusively as to whether homosexual or heterosexual couples perform better.

I suppose I had best clarify my position as it stands currently. I'm happy for homosexual couples to adopt, but in a position where two couples were to be in competition for a child and the only difference is that one was same sex and the other heterosexual, I would give the latter advantage. I can't particularly see that scenario being all that common, however.

 

[DallasApple]

I will say...I dont think its right to start saying kids are "better off" with two women or two men raising kids than a man and a woman..I mean a blanket statement like that doesnt seem quite right.

If you have a happy well adjusted couple..that love each other and demonstrate respect to one another..That also are focussed on the best interest of a child..that work together to provide a safe (physically and emotionally) eviroment for the child..You have a win win situation for that child.Whether its a man and a woman..two women ...or two men...

I also believe the same goes for single parents..Even though I will say they may not learn the modeling or the dynamics of how a "couple" should treat each other..That doesnt mean they cant be "taught" in theory...

I think there is something of much value..for a childs self esteem to be able to know "my parents love each other"..

Just my 25cents..(inflation ya know)...

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I know this is fictitional..And I hope its not offensive to mention because it sort of(well not sort of...big time) stereotypes a feminine and a masculine portrayal of two gay men...But the movie the "Bird Cage" comes to mind..

I love that movie by the way..LOL!!!

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

No, they never will be because no matter how hard you try, the child will be lacking in understanding that they would get from having a normal family with a mother and a father.

"Normal" is an overated ...overused..and misunderstood word in this discussion.

What children thrive on is a loving support system and someone who is concerned and takes measures to ensure their physical and emotional well being..


Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

O.K. this is going to take a while. First, here are some sites where you can find summaries of the research:

APA.
AAP
Questia

A lot of different factors have been researched for a long time. Here's a fairly typical study that looks at what we're trying to learn about: how are the kids doing?
Golombok, S., Perry, B., Burston, A., Murray, C., Mooney-Somers, J., Stevens, M., & Golding, J. (2003). Children with lesbian parents: A community study. Developmental Psychology, 39, 20-33.

Existing research on children with lesbian parents is limited by reliance on volunteer or convenience samples. The present study examined the quality of parent-child relationships and the socioemotional and gender development of a community sample of 7-year-old children with lesbian parents. Families were recruited through the Avon Longitudinal Study of Parents and Children, a geographic population study of 14,000 mothers and their children. Thirty-nine lesbian-mother families, 74 two-parent heterosexual families, and 60 families headed by single heterosexual mothers were compared on standardized interview and questionnaire measures administered to mothers, co-mothers/fathers, children, and teachers. Findings are in line with those of earlier investigations showing positive mother-child relationships and well-adjusted children. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)

Here's another:
Gartrell, N., Deck, A., Rodas, C., Peyser, H., & Banks, A. (2005). The National Lesbian Family Study: 4. Interviews with the 10-year-old children. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 75(4) 518-524.

This fourth report from a longitudinal study of U.S. lesbian families presents data from 78 families in which the children were conceived by donor insemination. Results indicate that the prevalence of physical and sexual abuse in these children was lower than national norms. In social and psychological development, the children were comparable to children raised in heterosexual families. Children of unknown donors were indistinguishable from those with known donors in psychological adjustment. Fifty-seven percent of the children were completely out to their peers, and 43% had experienced homophobia. The children demonstrated a sophisticated understanding of diversity and tolerance. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2005 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)

Here's another:
Tasker, F., & Golombok, S. (1995). Adults raised as children in lesbian families. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 65, 203-215.

Conducted a longitudinal study to examine the psychological well-being, family relationships, and the formation of friendships/intimate relationships among individuals raised in lesbian families. Twenty-five young adults (aged 17-35 yrs.; 8 males) from lesbian families and 21 aged-matched controls (12 males) raised by heterosexual single mothers were interviewed regarding their family and peer relationships, sexual orientations, and psychological adjustment. Subjects raised by lesbian mothers functioned well in adulthood in terms of psychological well-being and of family identity and relationships. The commonly held assumption that lesbian mothers will have lesbian daughters and gay sons was not supported. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)

Gotta go--more later.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Thanks for sharing. I just thought I should clarify it was never my intention to imply that homosexual couples were inferior at parenting to any significant degree. I do believe the current research reflects that.

However I notice, and just thought I should highlight, the study hailing that abuse in lesbian families was lower than the national norm still does not imply anything inherently positive about an upbringing with homosexual parents. Rather I think that is still down to the planned parenthood factor I hinted at previously. The 'norm' the study refers to would apparently be that of all children born/raised by heterosexual couples, planned and unplanned.

 

[Autodidact]

As far as the research, I'm sure we can all agree that the group we need to look at is gay and lesbian families, and then compare with heterosexual families. Research into, for example, single-parent families, would not be relevant, right?

 

[Random]

As far as the research, I'm sure we can all agree that the group we need to look at is gay and lesbian families, and then compare with heterosexual families. Research into, for example, single-parent families, would not be relevant, right?

If you say so. I don't agree, but there you go...anyway, nobody cares. Issues like these are a waste of time.

 

[UnTheist]

nobody cares.

Obviously this is false. Plenty of people care.

Issues like these are a waste of time.

Says who?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh God, I thought that I was clear on this, there is no reliable data and I stated that the reason is that this is a new thing, I mean people wanting to marry another of same sex, wanting to adopt, how long this has been on? How many people can we find is such position in the US? Yes at present we just don’t know, but it seems that there are no intention of allowing this marriages and find out, that is the will of the majority. So we just don’t know, if this are not marriages how can they adopt?

Unmarried couples can adopt in most states in the US.

You are still hang up on the equality thing, all married couples can adopt if they meet the requirement, no one is disadvantaged.

Right.

That's like saying that everyone can play golf at the mens-only golf course once they get in, so it's not discriminating based on sex.

It was clear that this issue was resolved the only marriage that is accepted in the Us is between a man and a woman, and adoption is only permitted to married couples that meet the requirements, and one of them is that they would be able to be a role model. A girl from her adopted mother and a boy from his adopted father. That’s the way it is.

No, it's not. Adoption by unmarried couples (and therefore by same-sex couples) is illegal in some states, but not all. There are plenty of same-sex couples in the US who are raising and have raised adopted children.

To get an equal number of parent for the sample, we need first to find gay couples that are legally married and have adopted children, that would be a hard task in the US, don’t you think?

Not in Massachussetts. Also, Canadian and European studies would give an indication of the likely effects of the same thing in the US.

 

[tomspug]

I'm really sick and tired of people around here slandering us gay parents, by saying that we do not do as good a job as straight parents. This thread is to give you a chance to bring forward your evidence that this is the case. Not your biased, bigoted, opinion, based on neither research not actual personal experience with gay families, but your quality, sound, unbiased research, using sound methodology, that shows this to be the case. I would also be interested in your personal experience with gay and lesbian families, as compared to straight families. I in my turn will be happy to do the same. When I get done showing you that the overwhelming evidence supports my assertion that gay parents do at least as good a job as straight parents, I hope never again to hear this slander from you lying bigots, casting dishonest aspersions on us hardworking gay parents. Go for it.

I think that good parenting has nothing to do with circumstances and everything to do with love. As long as there is love, a child will grow in a healthy environment with a bright future and the ability to do good.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

As far as the research, I'm sure we can all agree that the group we need to look at is gay and lesbian families, and then compare with heterosexual families. Research into, for example, single-parent families, would not be relevant, right?

That would be the most valid tactic, though I so think the research that takes into account the potential difference of planned parenthood is probably important as well. I notice a few studies in that list have actually taken that into account.

 

[SATYAKI]

I think that good parenting has nothing to do with circumstances and everything to do with love. As long as there is love, a child will grow in a healthy environment with a bright future and the ability to do good.

Well said.

 

[emiliano]

And I said, have you familiarized yourself with the research before making this assertion, or is it just an assumption on your part? It's bee going on forever, but I think it's been studied now for about 40 years. About one of three lesbian households has kids in it. We have a pretty good idea. So far. However, lesbian and gay couples are having kids with or without society's permission to marry. Single adults can adopt. I have one adopted child myself. Yeah, that gosh darned equality thing. I'm still hung up on it, you know, justice, freedom, that whole equality thing. Take it to the gay marriage thread, emil. You're mistaken. What is the way what is?
No, emil. Millions of lesbians have children, whether through adoption or insemination. It's been common for decades.

When I have time, I'll summarize the research for you.

You are dodging my request, I said that I would be interested in seen your research on the success of children adopted by gay, lesbians having children is a different issue, this children are not adopted. Your have studied for forty years? What kind of couple have you studied? These children that these people that you cited have, are they clones of a female? I am sure that they are mostly the product of male and a female. Can these children be adopted by a lesbian? I notice that you make a separation between lesbians and gay couple. Why is it so? I class them as homosexuals.
Somebody attracted to same sex: somebody who is sexually attracted to members of his or her own sex
adj
1. attracted to same sex: sexually attracted to members of the same sex
2. of homosexuality: relating to sexual attraction or activity among members of the same sex
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
That is another point that I hope is clarified by your research, does your research contain date, decades is a bit broad, can you be more precise? As I say we just don’t have the data to judge this, and your post didn’t help me none cause is vague, decades, inseminations, to consider this the children must be adopted into a same sex family, what percentage of this children turn out gay? How many of them end up been affected by GID that is considered a mental disorder?