Gay parents are at least as good as straight parents.

[emiliano]

Unmarried couples can adopt in most states in the US.
Right.
That's like saying that everyone can play golf at the mens-only golf course once they get in, so it's not discriminating based on sex.
No, it's not. Adoption by unmarried couples (and therefore by same-sex couples) is illegal in some states, but not all. There are plenty of same-sex couples in the US who are raising and have raised adopted children.
Not in Massachussetts. Also, Canadian and European studies would give an indication of the likely effects of the same thing in the US.

I am sure that you know that the sample is striking to insignificance and it clear that finding a reliable study is extremely hard. Just like I told you.

 

[Green Gaia]

I've been PMed and asked why I'm not participating in this thread. Frankly, I have no desire to defend my right to be a parent or try to prove to ignorant bigots that my children are happy, secure, loved and "normal". I know they are and that's all that matters.

BTW, there are plenty of reasons I shouldn't have children. My sexual orientation is not one of them.

Autodidact, I'll frubal you again when I can, sister. :jam:

 

[Autodidact]

You are dodging my request, I said that I would be interested in seen your research on the success of children adopted by gay, lesbians having children is a different issue, this children are not adopted.

O.K., for some reason emiliano is particularly interested in adoption, although most lesbians who have children did not adopt them.

Your have studied for forty years?

Not me, emil, professional social scientists.

What kind of couple have you studied?

Read the studies, or at least the summaries.

These children that these people that you cited have, are they clones of a female?

No.

I am sure that they are mostly the product of male and a female

Are you referring to artificial insemination?

Can these children be adopted by a lesbian?

I have three children, one I gave birth to, one my partner, and one that I adopted. Does that help?

I notice that you make a separation between lesbians and gay couple.

No, I don't. Although I myself know many more lesbian families than gay families.

Why is it so? I class them as homosexuals.

Why would we care how you classify us?

O.K. Adoption. Here's a report from the Urban Institute (not a gay organization) that basically covers the demographics.

Gay and lesbian parents are raising four percent of all adopted children in the United States.

Gay and lesbian parents are raising three percent of foster children in the United States.
A national ban on GLB foster care could cost from $87 to $130 million.
Costs to individual states could range from $100,000 to $27 million.

Here's a report from the Child Welfare League of America (not a gay organization) that summarizes the situation:

The primary successes of this group included meaningful and gratifying parenting and successful testing of whether adoption might be a natural next step after foster parenting. The primary challenges included insensitive, inappropriate, and difficult social workers; state or local laws that worked against successful foster parenting by LGB adults; failure to recognize parents' partners; and lack of support by the system to acknowledge the important role of LGB parents

The CWLA supports the case by case placements of children in qualified adoptive homes and those homes can include gay men and lesbians," Rob Woronoff, a Director at the Child Welfare League of America

"The bottom line for those of us who advocate for children is clear," said Adam Pertman, the Executive Director of the Adoption Institute in a March 23, 2006 statement. "There's simply no credible research to indicate that children are harmed in any way when they're adopted by gay and lesbian parents, but there's lots of evidence to indicate that they do well in those homes."

(also not a gay organization) The Independent Adoption Center (not a gay organization)

Principal findings

1. Against a backdrop of increasing public acceptance, social science research concludes that children reared by gay and lesbian parents fare comparably to those of children raised by heterosexuals on a range of measures of social and psychological adjustment.

1. Studies are increasing in number and rigor, but the body of research on gay/lesbian parents is relatively small and has methodological limitations. Still, virtually every valid study reaches the same conclusion: The children of gays and lesbians adjust positively and their families function well. The limited research on gay/lesbian adoption points in the same direction.

And here's a good summary of the research, from The National Association of Social Workers (not a gay organization)

There is a limited number of studies involving children adopted by gay and lesbian adults and couples but once again the results are very positive. The following shows important findings from research on adoptive families with gay and lesbian parents:

• Adoptive families with gay and lesbian parents have been found to have positive family functioning, well-behaved children, and helpful family support networks (Erich, Leung, & Kanenberg, 2005a).
• There were no significant differences between gay and lesbian adoptive parents and heterosexual parents in terms of family functioning, their children’s behavior problems, and their family support networks (Erich, Leung, & Kanenberg, 2005b).
• In a study involving three groups of adoptive families, “parent’s sexual orientation” was not found to be a significant predictor of how well families function (Leung, Erich, & Kanenberg, 2005c).

This research provides clear support for the well-being of children being reared in homes with gay and lesbian adults or couples. In concert with the National Association of Social Work Code of Ethics which prohibits discrimination in any form, these findings direct social workers to support the practice of adoption by gay and lesbian adults and couples.

That is another point that I hope is clarified by your research, does your research contain date, decades is a bit broad, can you be more precise?

Yes, see above.

As I say we just don’t have the data to judge this, and your post didn’t help me none cause is vague, decades, inseminations, to consider this the children must be adopted into a same sex family, what percentage of this children turn out gay?

The same as the population at large.

How many of them end up been affected by GID that is considered a mental disorder?

I don't think there have been any cases yet. I haven't heard of any.

 

[Autodidact]

It wasn't me that PMd Green Gaia, but I'm more interested in the cowardly bigots who spouted this slander having the guts to show up and defend their lies, since the research from objective child welfare organizations all supports what I'm saying. But doesn't it make you mad when people spread lies about you?

 

[Ozzie]

I'm pretty confident a same sex parenting relationship would provide as much of a financially viable backdrop "at least" compared to the other option, with all the opportunity that affords. However, in an "ideal" world, I'd like to think children would choose to be born into a loving relationship between a man and a woman.

I think any other opinion is expressing the interests of interested parents, not those of children (in an ideal world).

 

[Autodidact]

Ozzie: Why is a loving relationship between a man and a woman better to grow up with than a loving relationship between two men or two women? Is one kind of love better than they other?

 

[Ozzie]

Ozzie: Why is a loving relationship between a man and a woman better to grow up with than a loving relationship between two men or two women? Is one kind of love better than they other?

Its not a question of one type of love being better than the other, "love" is simply an expression of the interests of the parents.

 

[emiliano]

O.K., for some reason emiliano is particularly interested in adoption, although most lesbians who have children did not adopt them.[/QUOTE]
And that fall into another area that isn’t discussed here, this are designer babies, this might come up for public debate soon, and it is a situation that is completely different, if one can select from known gene pool. Then this children‘s success or failure cannot be attributed to parental skills, and it cannot be compared to the success of failure of children that are generally the product of troubled natural parents.

Not me, emil, professional social scientists. Read the studies, or at least the summaries. No. Are you referring to artificial insemination? I have three children, one I gave birth to, one my partner, and one that I adopted. Does that help? No, I don't. Although I myself know many more lesbian families than gay families. Why would we care how you classify us?

As said above IV babies cannot be part of the study, because there is a pre-selection of genes, you buy good ones. and it is just that I noticed that you separate gay from lesbians. To me they are in the same group.
O.K. to the Adoption‘s reports. Here we have that 4% of children up for adoption are adopted by gays , that means that 96% are adopted by heterosexuals, that adoptions regulations are stricter on gays couples wishing to adopt, that there are a thoughtful analysis of their possibility of parental success, this is an apples and oranges argument, the truth is that we just don’t know at present. The financial advantages piece for not banning gay adoptions is interesting but not a proof of equal parenting skills. Qualifying these homes is of paramount importance and restriction must be maintained and strictly adhere to, thus they are not comparable to the adoptions by heterosexuals, do you have any statistic on how many of these children turn out gays. Or with GID?

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., for some reason emiliano is particularly interested in adoption, although most lesbians who have children did not adopt them.[/QUOTE]
And that fall into another area that isn’t discussed here, this are designer babies, this might come up for public debate soon, and it is a situation that is completely different, if one can select from known gene pool. Then this children‘s success or failure cannot be attributed to parental skills, and it cannot be compared to the success of failure of children that are generally the product of troubled natural parents.

Let me get what you're saying here. Children conceived by artificial insemination are genetically superior to children conceived naturally? That's your contention? Wow, that's really wild. Anyway, if you actually look at the research I cited, I believe at least one study compared children of gay and lesbian vs. heterosexual families, all conceived by AI.

As said above IV babies cannot be part of the study, because there is a pre-selection of genes, you buy good ones. and it is just that I noticed that you separate gay from lesbians. To me they are in the same group.

In some ways yes, in others no.

O.K. to the Adoption‘s reports. Here we have that 4% of children up for adoption are adopted by gays , that means that 96% are adopted by heterosexuals, that adoptions regulations are stricter on gays couples wishing to adopt,

Non sequitor. About 3% of the population is gay. Agencies apply the same standards to both groups.

that there are a thoughtful analysis of their possibility of parental success, this is an apples and oranges argument,

No, it isn't. You compare similar groups of families, with the only difference between them being the parent's gender. Then you measure the results.

the truth is that we just don’t know at present.

The truth is that you didn't even look at those studies, did you emil?

The financial advantages piece for not banning gay adoptions is interesting but not a proof of equal parenting skills. Qualifying these homes is of paramount importance and restriction must be maintained and strictly adhere to, thus they are not comparable to the adoptions by heterosexuals, do you have any statistic on how many of these children turn out gays. Or with GID?

It's in the studies, emil. About the same as kids of heterosexuals. And no, agencies are not stricter on gay families than straight. Nice try though.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm pretty confident a same sex parenting relationship would provide as much of a financially viable backdrop "at least" compared to the other option, with all the opportunity that affords. However, in an "ideal" world, I'd like to think children would choose to be born into a loving relationship between a man and a woman.

I think any other opinion is expressing the interests of interested parents, not those of children (in an ideal world).

In an ideal world, everyone would know exactly the best courses of action to follow.

Children don't get to choose the circunstances of their births, and there is convincing evidence that they can't even conceive of having other parents until quite a few years of age.

So it seems to me that you're just expressing wishful thinking.

 

[emiliano]

Let me get what you're saying here. Children conceived by artificial insemination are genetically superior to children conceived naturally? That's your contention? Wow, that's really wild.

Well, you get to choose the material you buy, don’t you? The wenker that sell the result of a masturbation is screened isn’t it? The bank does not store inferior specimen and you have the right to all the information, race, intelligence, hereditary diseases, etc. so these children are not a good comparative group to measure adopted parents parental skills

Anyway, if you actually look at the research I cited, I believe at least one study compared children of gay and lesbian vs. heterosexual families, all conceived by AI.
In some ways yes, in others no. Non sequitor. About 3% of the population is gay. Agencies apply the same standards to both groups. No, it isn't. You compare similar groups of families, with the only difference between them being the parent's gender. Then you measure the results.

What genders are we comparing? Gay is not a gender. I saw the one you cited so, do any of this studies answer my questions.

The truth is that you didn't even look at those studies, did you emil? It's in the studies, emil. About the same as kids of heterosexuals. And no, agencies are not stricter on gay families than straight. Nice try though

My post is directed at responding to the researches that you presented (the 4% to 96% comparisons) There was another with a ration of 3% gay to 97% heterosexuals.

How many of their children grow out to be Gays or suffer GID? Are the whole lot of these studies, apples and oranges arguments? I think that I told you this before. I like to read, but have not much time to do it and that as a consequence of this am very selective of the material that I read, so a I would appreciate that you point it to me, the ones that you presented are not of any help. I am not the only one that has brought the differences in the way that gay couples are screened for adoptions in this thread, so there is a problem there, sorry!

 

[Green Gaia]

It wasn't me that PMd Green Gaia, but I'm more interested in the cowardly bigots who spouted this slander having the guts to show up and defend their lies, since the research from objective child welfare organizations all supports what I'm saying. But doesn't it make you mad when people spread lies about you?

Of course it does. But I know the limits of my reasonableness, and this subject pushes that limit. I can easily see me saying something to get myself banned. I can deal with it when the ignorant bigots attack me, but when they bring my kids into it, the gloves come off.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, you get to choose the material you buy, don’t you? The wenker that sell the result of a masturbation is screened isn’t it? The bank does not store inferior specimen and you have the right to all the information, race, intelligence, hereditary diseases, etc. so these children are not a good comparative group to measure adopted parents parental skills

Yes, but no more than, probably less than, every woman screening a potential mate.

What genders are we comparing? Gay is not a gender.

I'm glad you now realize this. I mean gender as in same gender vs. two different genders.

My post is directed at responding to the researches that you presented (the 4% to 96% comparisons) There was another with a ration of 3% gay to 97% heterosexuals.

exactly. Just about the same ratio as in the population at large.

How many of their children grow out to be Gays or suffer GID?

Same as in the general population of children.

Are the whole lot of these studies, apples and oranges arguments?

No. They follow sound methodology, trying to match the measured and control group as much as possible.

I think that I told you this before. I like to read, but have not much time to do it and that as a consequence of this am very selective of the material that I read, so a I would appreciate that you point it to me, the ones that you presented are not of any help. I am not the only one that has brought the differences in the way that gay couples are screened for adoptions in this thread, so there is a problem there, sorry!

What is your specific question, proportion of kids who turn out gay? I don't think there have been any cases of GID or research on that. I will look for the numbers on sexual preference for you.

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., emiliano wants to know about sexual preference of the children of lesbian and gay parents, and I aim to serve:

Allen, M., & Burrell, N. (1996). Comparing the impact of homosexual and heterosexual parents on children: Meta-analysis of existing research. Journal of Homosexuality, 32, 19-35.

This meta-analysis summarizes the available quantitative literature comparing the impact of heterosexual and homosexual parents, using a variety of measures, on the child(ren). The analyses examine parenting practices, the emotional well-being of the child, and the sexual orientation of the child. The results demonstrate no differences on any measures between the heterosexual and homosexual parents regarding parenting styles, emotional adjustment, and sexual orientation of the child(ren).

Anderssen, N., Amlie, C., & Ytteroy, E. A. (2002). Outcomes for children with lesbian or gay parents: A review of studies from 1978 to 2000. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 43, 335-351.

Reviewed 23 empirical studies published between 1978 and 2000 on nonclinical children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers (one Belgian/Dutch, one Danish, three British, and 18 North American). Twenty studies reported on offspring of lesbian mothers, and three on offspring of gay fathers. The studies encompassed a total of 615 offspring (age range 1.5-44 yrs.) of lesbian mothers or gay fathers and 387 controls, who were assessed by psychological tests, questionnaires, or interviews. Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning. Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes. The studies indicate that children raised by lesbian women do not experience adverse outcomes compared with other children. The same holds for children raised by gay men, but more studies should be done.

Gottman, J. S. (1990). Children of gay and lesbian parents. In F. W. Bozett & M. B. Sussman (Eds.), Homosexuality and family relations (pp. 177-196). New York: Harrington Park Press.

Reviews research literature on children of homosexual (HS) parents, including comparisons with children of heterosexual parents. Children of HS parents did not appear deviant in gender identity, sexual orientation, or social adjustment. Issues that emerged during their upbringing related more to society's rejection of homosexuality than to poor parent-child relationships.

 

[emiliano]

I knew that this was going to be interesting. There are interesting points: Burrell concluded ( in !996) that parental styles make no difference, I found an article that present the same objections that I have about this type of studies.
The Status of Gay and Lesbian Parenting
Defining the family structure of gay and lesbian parents can be a challenging task. The most common type of homosexual household is step or blended families. These are gay and lesbian parents who had their biological children in a former heterosexual relationship, then "came out", and created a new family with another partner. Other types of family structures include single gay or lesbian parents and couples having children together. Both of these family types may be created through adoption, but more frequently reproductive technology is being utilized.
There has been some research on biological families with gay and lesbian parents. This research focuses mainly on children born to donor-inseminated lesbians or those raised by a parent, once married, who is now living a gay lifestyle. While research on these situations has not addressed all the issues relevant to adoptive parenting; this information is invaluable for social workers struggling with difficult decisions, for gay men and lesbians who want to be parents, for their families and friends, and for anyone seeking information on this nontraditional type of family.
Unfortunately, the effects on children of being raised by lesbian and gay adoptive parents cannot be predicted. The number of homosexuals who have adopted is unknown, and because of the controversial nature of the issue, their children are often reluctant to speak out. Testimony of children who have grown up in gay households may turn out to provide the best information about the results of gay parenting.
Research studies, often conducted by individuals or organizations with a vested interest in the outcome, are contradictory. Studies linked to conservative political and religious groups show negative effects on children of gay and lesbian parents; while studies which support homosexual parenting are said to reflect the bias of those who are themselves gay or who support gay rights. Clearly, what are needed are definitive studies that would follow larger numbers of children over a long period of time. That research, when completed, will provide more definitive information for the debate.
From the National Adoption Information Clearinghouse (U.S. Department of Health & Human Services)
Adoption and Same-Sex Couples: Basics - Divorce & Family Law Center

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., emiliano, good contribution. It's not from some anti-gay propagandists, but rather a fairly neutral outfit. However, I would point out that when alleging pro-gay bias, your source says these studies "are said to reflect bias," not do reflect such bias. I submit that in fact there are several good studies using good methodology, and that the uncertainty is exaggerated. At most, you can argue that we don't know, but certainly not state, as some do (and as I am complaining about) that straight homes are better than gay homes. No studies come to that conclusion.

And indeed we have seen in this thread not a single study, not one, comparing gay to straight homes, finding a better outcome for straight homes.

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., to summarize, we have not a single piece of research to support the false assertion that children are better off with straight parents than gay. What we have seen is that either (1) children are at least as well with gay parents as straights or (2) we don't know for sure yet, although the evidence leans that way. I hope I will never again see a lying bigot here at RF making this false, unsupported assertion. Thank you.

 

[Random]

O.K., to summarize, we have not a single piece of research to support the false assertion that children are better off with straight parents than gay. What we have seen is that either (1) children are at least as well with gay parents as straights or (2) we don't know for sure yet, although the evidence leans that way. I hope I will never again see a lying bigot here at RF making this false, unsupported assertion. Thank you.

Oh yeah, that ends the argument once and for all, fer sure!

 

[misanthropic_clown]

O.K., to summarize, we have not a single piece of research to support the false assertion that children are better off with straight parents than gay. What we have seen is that either (1) children are at least as well with gay parents as straights or (2) we don't know for sure yet, although the evidence leans that way. I hope I will never again see a lying bigot here at RF making this false, unsupported assertion. Thank you.

I'm certainly in category number 2. I think there are far too many confounding factors to realistically expect such research to uncover anything but a rather stark difference between straight and gay parents. As it stands, the research does indicate that there is no such stark difference between the two.

 

[tomspug]

I say let's let people do what we want until there IS enough research to come to a conclusion. I understand that we want what's best for children, but when we don't know what that means, isn't it OK to focus on what we DO know? That children need love, and they should be in the most stable and loving families possible (within legal boundaries, of course).