Gay Radicals Disrupt/Protest Worship Services

[LuisDantas]

When you find out, tell me. I want to know too.

 

[Autodidact]

To me they seem rather dumb, ineffective and juvenile.

 

[Pah]

These people who are the epidemy of tolerance desecrate a house of worship. And the weenie cops did nothing.

Pretty soon are we going to police our own churches and keep the freeks of society out because our own law enforcement has left their fortitude in the car?

Quite an action from a loving Christianity. Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?

These freeks gave up their free speech rights when they crossed the line disrupting a group worshipping God according to thier rights under the Constitution.

Ah it was freedom of worship not freedom of speech.

It was in response to the massive monetary investment LDS made in defying freedom of worship. Good Christians were married and want to marry in California and LDS trashed that.

Though I am not in favor of reprisal, I understand "tit for tat".

And I can understand when people are dismayed when dogma becomes law.

 

[Watchmen]

Quite an action from a loving Christianity. Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?

Ah it was freedom of worship not freedom of speech.

It was in response to the massive monetary investment LDS made in defying freedom of worship. Good Christians were married and want to marry in California and LDS trashed that.

Though I am not in favor of reprisal, I understand "tit for tat".

And I can understand when people are dismayed when dogma becomes law.

That's right. The 2% of the population in California (LDS) passed Prop 8 on their own. :sarcastic

 

[Mr Spinkles]

That's right. The 2% of the population in California (LDS) passed Prop 8 on their own.

No they were helped by their LDS brothers and sisters in Utah who donated ~ $16 million, financing nearly half the entire YES on Prop 8 campaign. Without that money the YES campaign's funds would have been halved, and NO would have had twice as much money as YES. It's fair to say that the LDS contributions were the most important factor in passing Prop 8; in fact there's no way it would have passed without them.

 

[Alceste]

The (official?) blog of the group that put on the protest also claims that this happened:

Bash Back! News

However, I'm not sure whether going into a church and causing a disturbance would have been illegal until they were asked to leave, and only then if they refused.

Their blog also states that the fire alarm was pulled.

That doesn't make it any more credible. Bash Back! has a good reason to hype their own actions, just as the anti-gay community has a good reason to believe the hype. If you look carefully, the references are circular (i.e. the news story references Bash Back for taking the credit, and presumably bases aspects of their report on the Bash Back blog entry).

According to a report on the Bash Back group's news site, protesters inside the church pulled a fire alarm, unfurled a banner from the church balcony, shouted and threw fliers to the worshippers.

In the absence of independent verification, like a video or eye witness testimony, there's no way to know what actually happened, or whether anything happened at all.

But more to the point, who cares?

 

[Watchmen]

No they were helped by their LDS brothers and sisters in Utah who donated ~ $16 million, financing nearly half the entire YES on Prop 8 campaign. Without that money the YES campaign's funds would have been halved, and NO would have had twice as much money as YES. It's fair to say that the LDS contributions were the most important factor in passing Prop 8; in fact there's no way it would have passed without them.

Of course money played at part, but bottom line: NO had more money. Voters choose YES.

As you already know, I was a NO voter.

 

[Apex]

Of course money played at part, but bottom line: NO had more money. Voters choose YES.

As you already know, I was a NO voter.

Also, if the money from Mormons had any kind of effect, all it did was put the two campaigns on an equal financial playing field. Yet, if we are going to judge who won by the amount of money raised, NO should have prevailed as they still had more money.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Of course money played at part, but bottom line: NO had more money. Voters choose YES.

As you already know, I was a NO voter.

Let's do some math.

NO had a little more money, $37.6 million to YES's $35.8 million. And voters were fairly narrowly divided on the issue: only a few percent more people voted YES than NO, with a margin of victory of 4%. Without the $16 million from Utah, YES would have had only $19.8 million; in other words, it's campaign would have been cut in half. And by comparison, the NO campaign would have been putting out more than twice as many commercials, fliers, etc. as YES. So it's highly, highly unlikely YES could have won without the money from Utah, given the relatively small margin of victory and the enormity of the money involved.

Source: California Proposition 8 (2008) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, if the money from Mormons had any kind of effect, all it did was put the two campaigns on an equal financial playing field.

Absolutely correct. The money from Mormons put an anti-civil rights campaign on an equal playing field with pro-civil rights. Civil rights would likely have prevailed without the heroic intervention from Utah.

Yet, if we are going to judge who won by the amount of money raised, NO should have prevailed as they still had more money.

No one is saying that there is a one-to-one correlation between money raised and how the vote turns out. But there is a correlation. Given the numbers above, there's just no denying how Mormon money was critical in deciding a close vote in one of the most liberal states in the union.

 

[Apex]

Let's do some math.

NO had a little more money, $37.6 million to YES's $35.8 million. And voters were fairly narrowly divided on the issue: only a few percent more people voted YES than NO, with a margin of victory of 4%. Without the $16 million from Utah, YES would have had only $19.8 million; in other words, it's campaign would have been cut in half. And by comparison, the NO campaign would have been putting out more than twice as many commercials, fliers, etc. as YES. So it's highly, highly unlikely YES could have won without the money from Utah, given the relatively small margin of victory and the enormity of the money involved.

Source: California Proposition 8 (2008) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Absolutely correct. The money from Mormons put an anti-civil rights campaign on an equal playing field with pro-civil rights. Civil rights would likely have prevailed without the heroic intervention from Utah.

No one is saying that there is a one-to-one correlation between money raised and how the vote turns out. But there is a correlation. Given the numbers above, there's just no denying how Mormon money was critical in deciding a close vote in one of the most liberal states in the union.

You speak as if campaign money "purchases" votes...

 

[Sunstone]

You speak as if campaign money "purchases" votes...

Doesn't it?

 

[Apex]

Doesn't it?

I sure hope not.

 

[Autodidact]

You speak as if campaign money "purchases" votes...

Well, if they didn't think it would have an effect, I don't think all those Mormons would have donated it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fair question, indeed. Wasn't the whole point of raising that money to somehow help in approving Proposition 8? One can only assume that it did.

 

[Watchmen]

Of course money influences votes by paying for advertising.

However, a person gets to vote how they choose to vote and more people voted YES. I think it's time the gay community gets a proposition of their own. Only when a majority of voters side with the gay community will this be put to rest, IMO.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You speak as if campaign money "purchases" votes...

First of all, I said very clearly:

No one is saying that there is a one-to-one correlation between money raised and how the vote turns out. But there is a correlation.
​

Secondly, with all due respect--get real. You don't just raise $35 million and blow it on something if you don't think it will have an effect. Commercials, radio spots, fliers, rallies...they change some voters' minds, and get the decided voters to actually vote, and they all cost $$. And they make the biggest difference when the vote is going to be close.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

However, a person gets to vote how they choose to vote and more people voted YES.

Very true; but recall your response to Magsk:

It was in response to the massive monetary investment LDS made in defying freedom of worship. Good Christians were married and want to marry in California and LDS trashed that.

That's right. The 2% of the population in California (LDS) passed Prop 8 on their own. /sarcasm/

Your response to Magsk was way off base. The fact of the matter is the LDS Church was the MVP on the anti-civil rights starting line-up.

Not that it's any of my business, but i.m.o. if you truly cared about both your church and civil rights, you would be more concerned about reforming your church's attitudes than making excuses for it and downplaying the catastrophic effect it has had on thousands of families and married couples.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Only when a majority of voters side with the gay community will this be put to rest, IMO.

True enough. But it's certainly more difficult to reach that majority when the LDS Church leadership all but commands its followers to actively campaign against civil rights.

 

[Watchmen]

Very true; but recall your response to Magsk:

Your response to Magsk was way off base. The fact of the matter is the LDS Church was the MVP on the anti-civil rights starting line-up.

Not that it's any of my business, but i.m.o. if you truly cared about both your church and civil rights, you would be more concerned about reforming your church's attitudes than making excuses for it and downplaying the catastrophic effect it has had on thousands of families and married couples.

My response was not way off base. Money matters, BUT the bottom line is the LDS voters in Cali are only 2% of the population.

And you're right. It is none of your business.

 

[Watchmen]

True enough. But it's certainly more difficult to reach that majority when the LDS Church leadership all but commands its followers to actively campaign against civil rights.

Now you're overstating. There are statements from LDS leaders that there would be no sactions for those who opposed prop 8.