Gay Radicals Disrupt/Protest Worship Services

[Heneni]

It might help your cause, but i have a suspicion it might cause trouble in some mormon camps. The one hand gets fed and the other hand feels rejected.

Wont you feel though, that you'll be owing the mormons something? Who does things for nothing these days?

Its been great chatting to you autodidact. You aks so many questions, im sure i didnt get around to addressing all of them.

Good luck to you. Wishing you all the best in the future.

Heneni

 

[Father Heathen]

Homosexual. Marriage. Would. Not. Impact. Heterosexual. Marriage. In. Any. Conceivable. Way.

 

[Sunstone]

Homosexual. Marriage. Would. Not. Impact. Heterosexual. Marriage. In. Any. Conceivable. Way.

Nice try.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The gay agenda is a public one. The agenda of the poor has been put on the shelf.

I would rather see people getting worked up about poverty and have millions of dollars raised by the churhc to help the dying, sick, lonely and hungry. Instead we have MILLIONS of dollars for a prop 8 campaing.

And shame on those who would expend their resources and efforts denying rights to people rather than putting it towards doing actual good.

Dont wait for a few generations to pass by.....you can change things NOW if you acknowledge that the term 'marriage' is not a trivial matter to many heterosexuals.

You finally said something I agree with. As a married heterosexual myself, I agree that the term 'marriage' is not a trivial matter. Marriage is a sacred thing; its sacredness would not be diminished in any way whatsoever by same-sex couples entering into it as well. In fact, I think that the sacred nature of marriage is what makes unfairly denying it to same-sex couples all the more unjust.

It is an enormous thing to deny marriage to a person who wants to marry. It should not be done arbitrarily or lightly.

I think you need to go tell them that this issue is trivial, and not worth concerning themselves about. Because it really isn't. I mean, only something like 3% of the population is gay; who cares whether they get married or not? Other than gay people themselves, of course, who care very much.

For most people, if they think about it for a bit, then they'll find that they're in a <3% minority in some way that they care about. My hope would be that this would bestow people with a bit of empathy... but my hope seems to be unfounded way too often.

 

[Katydidit]

It is an enormous thing to deny marriage to a person who wants to marry. It should not be done arbitrarily or lightly.

Do you really think that anyone who "denies" people that right does so lightly? :sarcastic

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you really think that anyone who "denies" people that right does so lightly? :sarcastic

In some cases, yes, I do.

 

[Katydidit]

In some cases, yes, I do.

Elaborate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Elaborate.

You don't think that there are people in the anti-same-sex marriage movement who have just jumped on the bandwagon without fully considering the issue?

 

[Watchmen]

Not directly, but it did go toward providing a venue for promotion of that campaign. The LDS Church did indirectly support the "yes" campaign in a number of campaigns. Tithes helped this happen. I realize that they also help many other things happen, which I realize would affect a person's assessment of the effect of tithes, but this impact on same-sex marriage is a part of it.

I faced a similar dilemma (though not exactly the same) with my wife's church: I recognized that the Catholic Church does a lot of good, but I think it does a lot of bad as well. In the end, I decided not to give the Church any money, and instead support secular charities that have similar positive effects without the negative baggage.

Please detail how tithes helped out?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please detail how tithes helped out?

They would have paid for the upkeep and operating costs on the venues that were used to encourage LDS members to support the "yes on 8" campaign financially. They would have paid the salaries of Church staff who spent working hours on the issue - press releases don't write or release themselves (and I realize you don't have paid ministry; I'm thinking more of positions like communications and office staff, plus any instances where unpaid representatives might have claimed reimbursement for expenses). I read about the LDS Church organizing things like satellite TV broadcasts to California meeting houses on the issue; that's not free by any stretch of the imagination.

While the Church apparently didn't support proposition 8 with direct financial contributions (except for the ~$3,000 donation that I did find, which I mentioned earlier and recognize is minor), they did support it indirectly, and tithes would have allowed this to happen.

 

[Watchmen]

Thanks.
Wow, those Mormons are really obsessed with gay people in another state.

To be fair - donations for YES came from 49 states and donations for NO came from 50 states. Even though it was a California Prop it was treated as a national issue.

 

[Apex]

They would have paid the salaries of Church staff who spent working hours on the issue - press releases don't write or release themselves (and

Tithing money is specifically not used to pay any Church staff or leaders.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

To be fair - donations for YES came from 49 states and donations for NO came from 50 states. Even though it was a California Prop it was treated as a national issue.

Good point Watchmen, but OTOH Autodidact was right to express surprise, since: "About 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state." So not everyone regarded this as a national issue proportionately. California Proposition 8 (2008) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mr Spinkles]

While the Church apparently didn't support proposition 8 with direct financial contributions (except for the ~$3,000 donation that I did find, which I mentioned earlier and recognize is minor), they did support it indirectly, and tithes would have allowed this to happen.

The LDS Church all but commanded its followers to donate time and money to the YES campaign, and the Church itself participated in the campaign whether or not it donated money directly. It's well worth it to read the entirety of the following, from: California and Same-Sex Marriage - LDS Newsroom

The following letter was sent from the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Church leaders in California to be read to all congregations on 29 June 2008:

Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families

In March 2000 California voters overwhelmingly approved a state law providing that &#8220;Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.&#8221; The California Supreme Court recently reversed this vote of the people. On November 4, 2 008, Californians will vote on a proposed amendment to the California state constitution that will now restore the March 2000 definition of marriage approved by the voters.

The Church&#8217;s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator&#8217;s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.

A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.

[emphasis added]

 

[Smoke]

To say that they could have stopped tithing shows a complete lack of respect for what it means to be a member of a people, whether a nation or a religion.

Lesbians, gay men, and transfolk rarely have any experience of being a full member of a people, whether a nation or a religion. We are discriminated against and denied equal rights by our nations, and driven to the closet, apostasy, or death by our religions.

We have, in most cases, been driven out from the "peoples" we once thought we belonged to, forced to choose between our "peoples" and our integrity. If our straight "friends" consider such a choice unthinkable, that means nothing to me except that straight folks cannot even begin to conceive of a genuine commitment to justice.

Until straight folks are willing to share our burdens, even to our exile from the religious groups that are havens for them but toxic to us, they should not presume to speak to us about a "complete lack of respect."

 

[Alceste]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if the credibility issue was addressed before, but here you go. Making out in front of the pastor, check, banners, check, fliers, check, loudness, check, violence, 'fraid not.

Offensive? Kind of. But is it any more offensive than this? To me, it seems rather tame in comparison.

 

[bhimashelper]

I wonder how gay Mormons feel about this issue? any gay Mormons on this forum care to contribute?

 

[Luminous]

These people who are the epidemy of tolerance desecrate a house of worship.

As christians desecrated "houses of worship" back in the day, so must us Agnostics show those who are blatant idolworshiper and scared sheep that what they are doing is wrong.

And the weenie cops did nothing.

This is as usual.

Pretty soon are we going to police our own churches and keep the freeks of society out because our own law enforcement has left their fortitude in the car?

Go ahead, make yourself like the Catholics were and you shall see how the might of secular peoples desends upon ye.

These freeks gave up their free speech rights when they crossed the line disrupting a group worshipping God according to thier rights under the Constitution.

Freedom of religion does not imply freedom from protest and dialogue.

Gay rights protesters disrupt Sunday service | lansingstatejournal.com | Lansing State Journal

I really don't know why these people are resorting to violence. its kinda contraproductive, whatever i guess. they can do as they want but the consecuences for their actions will (and are) comming.

 

[Alceste]

I really don't know why these people are resorting to violence. its kinda contraproductive, whatever i guess. they can do as they want but the consecuences for their actions will (and are) comming.

There was no violence. What kind of "consequences" do you think are appropriate for people who pepper a church with fliers, pull a fire alarm and make out in public?

 

[DallasApple]

What kind of "consequences" do you think are appropriate for people who pepper a church with fliers,

They should be asked to leave the premises..edited to add..with a warning..that if they come back they will be arrested and charged with tresspassing..

pull a fire alarm

This is a bit more serious..Im sure there are laws regarding this..So whoever is the one that pulled the alarm..should be charged with breaking whatever law prohibits this.

make out in public?

Anything from nothing(no consequences)..to lewd behavior or indecent exposure.Depending on what you mean by make out..

Love

Dallas