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Gay Radicals Disrupt/Protest Worship Services

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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
George Washington and the Founding fathers knew that if they lost they were dead men. The understood who they were going up against, the greatest military power in the world at that time. They pleged their lives, property, and sacred honor for the American Revolution.
I disagree.

Once the war got going, sure, but they made the choice to engage in it in the first place at a time when the stakes, while important, weren't their very lives.

Blacks also largely gained their rights through peacable means. Marches, sit ins, protesting, were all largely non violent. Of course you see overreaction by both sides in instances such as hosing down of black and white protesters on one side when provocation was not initiated by the protesters. But many protesters of the more radical element did get out of line and the law had to deal with them.
How is a group of people making a commotion in a church any fundamentally more violent than occupying a coffee shop for a sit-in?

No one is out to deny our homosexual citizens their rights. Just protecting a heterosexual right unique to that relationship.

Take "Fiddler on the Roof". Tevia has three daughters and tradition to deal with.

The first daughter weds an orthordox Jew, but he is not matched up by tradition. He is still a Jew.

The second daughter weds a secular Jew. He is not orthodox, nor is he practicing. But he is still a Jew. Both of these changes Tevia could recognize, even with hardship.

Along comes the third daughter and wants to marry a gentile. Although a good man, Tevia draws a line in the sand and says that even tradition has it's limits and marrying outside of the faith is not one of them. He rejects his third daughter's marriage.

Now I am not arguing for or against the marriage of the third daughter or that all traditions are correct. But I am illustrating that people can push, and push, until someone draws a line in the sand and states no more.
Ah... so the anti-same-sex marriage movement is the parent, and same-sex couples who want to get married are the disobedient child. Right.

It is the same with any other extremisim. You don't win support by punching people in the nose so that you can get your own plastic surgery done.:)
OTOH, protesting the taxes on tea by throwing the object of those taxes into the harbour seemed to be rather effective in the long run, didn't it? ;)
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
If this article is genuine then it was wrong for this group to do this. Just like it was wrong for Christians to get involved at a Wiccan family's house during their worship in Florida. Wrong is wrong. And I hardly think that Zippy would be able to beat up some gays if they disrupted his church but if he could then he should be arrested right along with the offending group.


The problem here I don't think the article Zippy posted is "completely" genuine. I've read that the church holds hundreds or thousands of people so I find it odd that there is not video footage of said attacks. No one was arrested for any civil disobedience or arrested for pulling the fire alarm (which is a federal crime...I believe). One video poster on Youtube, who obviously didn't attend the service that day, said two lesbian women got up on the stage and started to make out.....COME ON......Maybe the protesting outside was genuine but the rest, which has been unsubstantiated, sounds like a pack of lies that have been circulated, regurgitated and accepted by those who should no better....
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
George Washington and the Founding fathers knew that if they lost they were dead men. The understood who they were going up against, the greatest military power in the world at that time. They pleged their lives, property, and sacred honor for the American Revolution.

Point Two: Sufferage was a legitimate protest as women were denied a whole list of rights such as voting, inheritence rights, divorce rights, et al.. Largely, these demonstrations were peaceful. I am sure if I did my history their were radical elements here too. But the majority of rights were won through peaceable means.

Point Three: Blacks were denied many of rights won during the Civil War that had previously been denied by their slave status. When reconstruction ended, Jim Crow laws were put in place to keep blacks from gaining power in the South. Even during the era of Jim Crow only black males could vote.

Blacks also largely gained their rights through peacable means. Marches, sit ins, protesting, were all largely non violent. Of course you see overreaction by both sides in instances such as hosing down of black and white protesters on one side when provocation was not initiated by the protesters. But many protesters of the more radical element did get out of line and the law had to deal with them.

Take Rosa Parks. What she did was one of the greatest acts of courage by refusing to go to the back of the bus. Was this illegal? Yes. Violent? No.

Blacks of the Civil Rights era just wanted equal rights and protection under existing laws. That is all. They did not seek special status over their white or other race brothers, just equity under the law. Republicans supported the black cause more than Democrats ironically.

Now to the gays and marriage. Gays want equality under the law. They should have equality under the laws of the land. But, first marriage is a heterosexual institution. It is meant as a legal contract between a man and a woman for the purposes of starting the foundation of a family and having children.

Homosexuality is not instituted on that premise. Neither are homosexual unions. You cannot deny some group of people a "right" that does not exist for them. Give them civil unions and equal protection for their partners. But it cannot be marriage even if government wants it to be defined that way. Marriage is a heterosexual union, not homosexual. In my world view you call a spade a spade.

The fight for civil rights as mentioned above were for all human beings. They were not unique to gender, race, religion, creed, or sex. They were intended for all people, and equity under the law.

Homosexual "marriage" is not meant to be. It flies in the face of thousands of years of tradition of successful rearing and raising of families in societies from tribal primitive to advanced civilization.

No one is out to deny our homosexual citizens their rights. Just protecting a heterosexual right unique to that relationship.

Take "Fiddler on the Roof". Tevia has three daughters and tradition to deal with.

The first daughter weds an orthordox Jew, but he is not matched up by tradition. He is still a Jew.

The second daughter weds a secular Jew. He is not orthodox, nor is he practicing. But he is still a Jew. Both of these changes Tevia could recognize, even with hardship.

Along comes the third daughter and wants to marry a gentile. Although a good man, Tevia draws a line in the sand and says that even tradition has it's limits and marrying outside of the faith is not one of them. He rejects his third daughter's marriage.

Now I am not arguing for or against the marriage of the third daughter or that all traditions are correct. But I am illustrating that people can push, and push, until someone draws a line in the sand and states no more.

That is what the people of some 30 states of the Union have done with marriage. They have defined it as it has always been between a man and a woman, a heterosexual institution. Even polygamy, where and when it has been practiced is heterosexual in nature where that type of marital union is legal.

But homosexuality never has been or will be marriage. Change all the laws you want and bring down the wrath of the judges. It won't change what marriage is.

Again, no one is out to take away from gays their rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness under the law. We as a society are drawing a line in the sand and saying no to redefining marriage as something it is not.

And finally vandalism and debaucherous behavior have never won anyone anything except the animosity of society at large. Take the KKK. They are part of the lunatic fringe. Most of society rejects their white supremacy and should.

It is the same with any other extremisim. You don't win support by punching people in the nose so that you can get your own plastic surgery done.:)

What is your opinion about Act 1 passed in Arkansas?

Read this thread here,
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/72783-intersex-marriage.html
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Thank you for ignoring what I have said along with quite a few others. I will continue to bang my head against my desk due to peoples inability to listen to what I have tried several times to explain. If anyone thinks I lump all gay-rights activists with this group, you are wrong. Accept it or get over it, I don't care which.

I found some more stuff on the protests Ill post latter. The protesters have beaten some non-LDS girls who tried to remove some of the hateful signs on the Temple. Arrests were made.

I no longer support the movement against Prop 8. I do not want to be associated with bigotry, hate, vandalism, and physical assault.

Maybe you wouldn't have to keep "banging your head against your desk", if you stopped making these statements. I notice that after you said that you don't generalize, you go ahead and generalize in a different thread.

I would expect you of all people to realize that in every group there are some irrational members, but that they don not represent the entire group. You should not stop supporting others' human rights just because some people rubbed you the wrong way. If you really do believe that Prop 8 was wrong, then I assume it's because you thought it was taking away legal rights from that group of people and that is wrong. Do you think they should have their rights taken away from them just because some of them act out harshly?
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
So when George Washington and the rebels did their whole revolution what do you think they wanted? And what about African-Americans and women protesting to get their civil rights?

I don't think the situation is comparable. Here we've got democracy, and don't need to fight a violent revolution to accomplish our goals. The whole news report of this tiny, dumb, "incident" is a bit unclear, but sounds basically counter-productive to me.

And what about the Civil Rights movement? I mean, sitting down at a lunch counter may have been illegal, but not inherently disruptive. It was the racist scum yelling at them who actually disrupted things. Come to think of it, though, I think the people who integrated segregated lunch counters were arrested for disturbing the peace, weren't they, so it all does get a bit ambiguous. Anyway, in sum I don't think this particular protest was effective, but do support and endorse appropriate and effective protests.

This was one basically ****** people off without probably changing anyone's mind. Better would have been to invite the church to an interfaith dialog with MCC, that would have been more effective. Let the other side be the jerks.
 
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Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
The hypocrisy of charging homosexuals with being overly disruptive when they're mimicking stunts from the feminist, labor, and civil rights movement is stunning. The church shouldn't have sided with bigotry, just as the businesses which many laborers refused to leave should have payed better wages.

The only difference is that the GLBT movement is taking it to the churches. Tough luck, religion. You're not special.
 
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Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
Now to the gays and marriage. Gays want equality under the law. They should have equality under the laws of the land. But, first marriage is a heterosexual institution. It is meant as a legal contract between a man and a woman for the purposes of starting the foundation of a family and having children.

This attitude is making me rethink getting married to Guitar's Cry. Firstly, with the thought that marriage is only to procreate, I don't think it's right to reduce the incredible love I feel with him down to becoming baby factories, which is something that neither of us want. Secondly, I don't feel right indulging in a basic right like marriage when a good number of my friends can't. I can't imagine the slap in the face that would be.

This is all off-topic, but I had to say that...
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This attitude is making me rethink getting married to Guitar's Cry. Firstly, with the thought that marriage is only to procreate, I don't think it's right to reduce the incredible love I feel with him down to becoming baby factories, which is something that neither of us want. Secondly, I don't feel right indulging in a basic right like marriage when a good number of my friends can't. I can't imagine the slap in the face that would be.

This is all off-topic, but I had to say that...

Vote for love! If you and Guitar's Cry love each other, and want to take a chance on your love, go for it, all that support love support you. Then go on supporting gay marriage. btw, have you seen Keith Olberman's commentary? I think you would love it.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
This attitude is making me rethink getting married to Guitar's Cry. Firstly, with the thought that marriage is only to procreate, I don't think it's right to reduce the incredible love I feel with him down to becoming baby factories, which is something that neither of us want. Secondly, I don't feel right indulging in a basic right like marriage when a good number of my friends can't. I can't imagine the slap in the face that would be.

This is all off-topic, but I had to say that...

I agree..You arent helping your friends by denying yourself..Its kind of like this one guy was postign shouldnt we all eat less..to help starving nations.

And seriously..just try and ignore the ones that put "procreation" as the #1 or main reason for marrying..So far I havent met anyone that said they got married so they could have sex to have a baby..Some might say ..among other things they were ready to "settle down and start a family"..But the family core is the man and wife ..children or no children..

I mean after you get married..the beginning of it we call the "honeymoon"..not the "romper room"..

We(many) have pointed this out over and over..If marriage was to have legitimate babies..Then why would for instance a woman who is widowed..that aleady has children that are grown..and is past the time of childbearing ever marry again?

Love

Dallas
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
I don't think the situation is comparable. Here we've got democracy, and don't need to fight a violent revolution to accomplish our goals. The whole news report of this tiny, dumb, "incident" is a bit unclear, but sounds basically counter-productive to me.

And what about the Civil Rights movement? I mean, sitting down at a lunch counter may have been illegal, but not inherently disruptive. It was the racist scum yelling at them who actually disrupted things. Come to think of it, though, I think the people who integrated segregated lunch counters were arrested for disturbing the peace, weren't they, so it all does get a bit ambiguous. Anyway, in sum I don't think this particular protest was effective, but do support and endorse appropriate and effective protests.

This was one basically ****** people off without probably changing anyone's mind. Better would have been to invite the church to an interfaith dialog with MCC, that would have been more effective. Let the other side be the jerks.
Holy crap, we agree on something....
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Holy crap, we agree on something....

If you'll notice nobody (or at least almost nobody) is supporting the methods mentioned in the OP. We pretty much all agree that this particular kind of demonstration was not right. We just seem to disagree on whether or not that reflects on the entire community.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If you'll notice nobody (or at least almost nobody) is supporting the methods mentioned in the OP. We pretty much all agree that this particular kind of demonstration was not right. We just seem to disagree on whether or not that reflects on the entire community.
I think extreme tactics can sometimes be justified, but not in this case. It was wrong for them to target a church like that.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Maybe you wouldn't have to keep "banging your head against your desk, if you stopped making these statements. I notice that after you said that you don't generalize, you go ahead and generalize in a different thread.
I assume you are talking about the thread where posted about the two girls who were beaten by the protesters? If so, I have seen enough hatred from those people to warrant no longer supporting the No on Prop 8 group. I can think of a hundred different ways they could/can go about their protests in a manner that would of actually been productive rather than simply further polarizing people from their cause.

I would expect you of all people to realize that in every group there are some irrational members, but that they don not represent the entire group. You should not stop supporting others' human rights just because some people rubbed you the wrong way.
See above, I am talking about the No on Prop 8 group. Although, I also am not expecting any kind of condemnation, of the protesters behavior, from large Gay activist groups either.

If you really do believe that Prop 8 was wrong, then I assume it's because you thought it was taking away legal rights from that group of people and that is wrong.
Yes
Do you think they should have their rights taken away from them just because some of them act out harshly?
This statement does not make sense. Their rights were not taken away because they acted harshly. Because the people in California voted to not allow them to marry is the reason they are acting harshly (although "harsh" is a fairly mild term for their actions, "illegal and immoral" fit better). They chose the exact wrong way in which to respond to the vote:
-Pick a small group of people who contributed money to Prop 8
-Forget that this group only made up 5% of the "yes" votes
-Proceed with vandalism, hatred, bigotry, assault, and intolerance
They have become the very thing which they are denouncing.

They should have proceeded with making plans for more legislation on this matter to have it overturned (I believe some groups are doing this) and then held peaceful protests directed at the population who voted "yes" in general and not at a small sub-set of those who voted yes.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I assume you are talking about the thread where posted about the two girls who were beaten by the protesters? If so, I have seen enough hatred from those people to warrant no longer supporting the No on Prop 8 group. I can think of a hundred different ways they could/can go about their protests in a manner that would of actually been productive rather than simply further polarizing people from their cause.

Yes, I'm talking about that thread. However, bringing up a horrible incident like that isn't doing anything but appealing to emotion. So, by the same token, should I condemn all LDS because of the actions of some of them?

See above, I am talking about the No on Prop 8 group. Although, I also am not expecting any kind of condemnation, of the protesters behavior, from large Gay activist groups either.

Except that this doesn't even reflect all of the "No on Prop 8" crowd (which would include pretty much the entire gay community anyway). It reflects a small portion of the people who are pro-"No on Prop 8".

Yes
This statement does not make sense. Their rights were not taken away because they acted harshly. Because the people in California voted to not allow them to marry is the reason they are acting harshly (although "harsh" is a fairly mild term for their actions, "illegal and immoral" fit better). They chose the exact wrong way in which to respond to the vote:
-Pick a small group of people who contributed money to Prop 8
-Forget that this group only made up 5% of the "yes" votes
-Proceed with vandalism, hatred, bigotry, assault, and intolerance
They have become the very thing which they are denouncing.

They should have proceeded with making plans for more legislation on this matter to have it overturned (I believe some groups are doing this) and then held peaceful protests directed at the population who voted "yes" in general and not at a small sub-set of those who voted yes.

Again, no one is arguing that the actions of this group were right. No one is condoning that behavior. However, we also realize that they did not represent the entire "No on Prop 8" community. My point was that you seem to feel that because you don't like the actions of some people supporting gay marriage, you're justified in letting them have their rights taken away. If you truly felt that the gay community having their rights denied them was wrong, something like this wouldn't stop you supporting them. That's no better than supporting the Jews during the Holocaust until one of them spat in your face for no good reason, and then telling the entire Jewish population that they're on their own.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Yes, I'm talking about that thread. However, bringing up a horrible incident like that isn't doing anything but appealing to emotion.
So actions like this should be left in the dark and not talked about?

So, by the same token, should I condemn all LDS because of the actions of some of them?
This is not comparable. I am not talking about all Gays, only the No on Prop 8 group.

Except that this doesn't even reflect all of the "No on Prop 8" crowd (which would include pretty much the entire gay community anyway). It reflects a small portion of the people who are pro-"No on Prop 8".
When they fail to reign in actions done in their name, there is a problem. And 2,500 people is not "a small portion". That sounds like a fairly large chunk of people form the group in LA. If this were more along the lines of say, 100-150 protesters, I would agree with you.


Again, no one is arguing that the actions of this group were right. No one is condoning that behavior.
No one is publicly coming out and denouncing the behavior either.

However, we also realize that they did not represent the entire "No on Prop 8" community. My point was that you seem to feel that because you don't like the actions of some people supporting gay marriage, you're justified in letting them have their rights taken away. If you truly felt that the gay community having their rights denied them was wrong, something like this wouldn't stop you supporting them. That's no better than supporting the Jews during the Holocaust until one of them spat in your face for no good reason, and then telling the entire Jewish population that they're on their own.
Again, 2,500 people....
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
No one is publicly coming out and denouncing the behavior either.

Apex,

Who is "no one" and what public venue would you like to see utilized to denounce the behavior in this case?

Love

Dallas
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
So actions like this should be left in the dark and not talked about?

Talked about for how long..and to what end result?

What conclusion are you aiming for as the end result of the discussion on it?

Love

Dallas
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Apex,

Who is "no one" and what public venue would you like to see utilized in this case?

Love

Dallas
Fro example, the official organizers of the No on Prop 8 organization. I did find this on their web site,
We achieve nothing if we isolate the people who did not stand with us in this fight. We only further divide our state if we attempt to blame people of faith, African American voters, rural communities and others for this loss
However, it seems a fairly week and generic statement when compared to the type of behavior that has been going on in their name. Also, I have not even seen anything about people protesting against African-Americans or rural communities. Now, if they came out and posted a letter singling out the actions that have been done in their name, such as the protesters at the LDS Temple who have, so far, committed countless acts of vandalism, assault, and spewed hatred left and right, I would jump right back behind them again.
 
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