Gay vs God... 2 questions

[TJ73]

I do not have an automatic reaction to homosexuality. I have plenty of gay people in my life for years, friends, employees, relatives. I feel for their struggle since people can be so dam cruel.
I understand the prohibition of gay sex from a religious perspective. What I wonder is why.
Can anyone give an idea (since it is not clearly stated in any scripture) why God has made this prohibition?
Could it be because of the command to have children?
Why do you think so many people take the prohibition so far as to be cruel and even dangerous to gay people?

 

[Caladan]

I do not have an automatic reaction to homosexuality. I have plenty of gay people in my life for years, friends, employees, relatives. I feel for their struggle since people can be so dam cruel.
I understand the prohibition of gay sex from a religious perspective. What I wonder is why.
Can anyone give an idea (since it is not clearly stated in any scripture) why God has made this prohibition?
Could it be because of the command to have children?
Why do you think so many people take the prohibition so far as to be cruel and even dangerous to gay people?

The prime command to reproduce and be fertile is certainly a first thing that comes to mind.
as for the cruelty of men. I don't find it exceptionally directed solely on gays. every group, including every one of us on the forum faces some degree of antagonizing from another opposing group. and most of us antagonize other groups which we deem in opposition to our own ideals.

 

[Gruffudd]

Could it be because of the command to have children?

Certainly that is one Jewish perspective. G-d commanded man to "go forth and multiply" so the sterility is a problem. It is seen as a misuse of sexuality.

I'm not sure that position works so well for Christianity with the emphasis it places on celibacy. The earliest Christian writers - e.g. Clement of Alexandria - saw the prohibition as being specifically against penetrative sex. This is perhaps closer to the original concern addressed in Leviticus, which forbids a man from lying with a man as with a woman.

 

[TJ73]

True. But there seems to be a lot of it amongst those of Abrahamic faith. I seen similar commands for the treatment of many sins, but homosexuality seems to be across the board singled out for greater scrutiny.

 

[Caladan]

True. But there seems to be a lot of it amongst those of Abrahamic faith. I seen similar commands for the treatment of many sins, but homosexuality seems to be across the board singled out for greater scrutiny.

I don't know. Israel was one of the first nations to legalize same sex marriage which goes in complete opposition to the Jewish scriptures. to some of the major social problems there are solutions. nothing a little leverage and flexibility cannot fix.

 

[Penumbra]

I do not have an automatic reaction to homosexuality. I have plenty of gay people in my life for years, friends, employees, relatives. I feel for their struggle since people can be so dam cruel.
I understand the prohibition of gay sex from a religious perspective. What I wonder is why.
Can anyone give an idea (since it is not clearly stated in any scripture) why God has made this prohibition?

It doesn't make sense because it's not god that said it. It was mankind and its own prejudice.

Could it be because of the command to have children?

If anything, we've got a problem with overpopulation.

Why do you think so many people take the prohibition so far as to be cruel and even dangerous to gay people?

Took the prohibition so far?

In Leviticus it said to put those who have homosexual sex to death. So it's embedded into Jewish and Christian scriptures, and basically found its way into most or all Abrahamic faiths. So it's not like people take it too far; if anything these religions have mitigated the original magnitude of the prejudice.

But the reason people are cruel to gay people mostly doesn't have to do with scripture. It has to do with the fact that they have the same prejudice and hatred as those who wrote the scriptures. People love scapegoats, they dislike those diffrent from them, and they love to hate sins they can safely say they haven't committed.

 

[fantome profane]

I do not have an automatic reaction to homosexuality. I have plenty of gay people in my life for years, friends, employees, relatives. I feel for their struggle since people can be so dam cruel.
I understand the prohibition of gay sex from a religious perspective. What I wonder is why.
Can anyone give an idea (since it is not clearly stated in any scripture) why God has made this prohibition?
Could it be because of the command to have children?
Why do you think so many people take the prohibition so far as to be cruel and even dangerous to gay people?

I am sorry, I realize this may be tiresome but I have to point out the obvious. The most likely explanation by far for this prohibition is that it was written by men who were afraid of anything different. There have always been bigoted hateful men. And when you see bigoted hateful writings it is not difficult to figure out who wrote it.

Now you can go back to speculating as to why “God” would say something so silly.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

For what it's worth TJ, I don't think god prohibited homosexuality, or dislikes homosexuals. Think about it. Why would an all-transcendent being care about what goes on between human beings in sexual intercourse, especially between two consenting adults where no party is harmed?

I think it's as Pnumbra said, that as opposed to god disliking homosexuality, it's that people dislike it, and it's easy to use religion to justify mistreating people you hate. It always has been. It's not god that hates homosexuals, it's people.

Think about it, people who say they hate the sin but love gay people aren't being truthful. They claim that gay people will be cast into hell forever, some even say it with joy and relish. They advocate the taking of rights from us, and some would even like to see us dead under state law. That's not love!

People need to examine themselves and ask why they hate gay people, and ask why they want to blame god for this hate, for according to them, god loves all. Yet they claim god would cast gay people into an eternal hell for who we love. We have no choice. We're not sexually attracted to women, and it's not our fault.

 

[TheKnight]

I've considered this issue as I've come to deal with more and more homosexuals.

Ultimately, there is no conclusive answer for why God prohibits homosexual sex acts. And even then, I personally believe that there is some question that can be brought to how the prohibition is viewed and interpreted.

Regardless of the reason why it is prohibited, how homosexuality is dealt with varies on a case to case basis.

I've told people (who've asked my personal opinion as I do not represent Judaism in any official sense) that I think one could halakhically justify a gay person being involved in a gay relationship if the person has tried to change and has found it impossible and also feels as if he or she would die (IE suicide) otherwise.

I base this on the principle that we are to live by Torah (not die by it). It's logic that is used to justify why a Jew doesn't have to die for any commandment other than for adultry, murder, and idolatry. I personally don't find evidence in Torah to support that God would be against a same sex relationship where two monogamous partners remained devoted to one another and felt as if they would not be able to live otherwise (IE suicide).

As far as for Noahides. Our code is supposed to be a code that (generally) ensures our right to live (hence why the punishment for all of our laws is death). However, given that the purpose of our laws is to "settle the world" or avoid chaos, I don't see how a monogamous gay relationship between two devoted partners would be harmful to that goal. And I would agree that such (or any relationship gay or straight) should be reviewed or terminated if it were harmful to such a goal.

I think it's a leniency that can be justified. Loosely no doubt, but still justifiable. Obviously though, I an no talmud chacham and thus am not in any sort of position to be qualified enough to know what is halakhically justifiable or not. However, I've met too many closeted and deeply religious gays who've tried unsuccessfully to change their orientation to believe that God would mandate that they decide between a life of insanity (IE having to fight such a powerful urge as the sexual one) and death (suicide).

I've told this opinion to those religious but gay people that I've met who've also been suicidal.

 

[TheKnight]

For what it's worth TJ, I don't think god prohibited homosexuality, or dislikes homosexuals. Think about it. Why would an all-transcendent being care about what goes on between human beings in sexual intercourse, especially between two consenting adults where no party is harmed?

Why would an all-transcendent being (insert anything here)? We don't know. We cannot assume, however, that we know what an all-transcendent being would do or why it would do it.

In fact, I think it is improper (given what we observe in the universe) to believe in such a being unless we can logically justify a reasonable belief in such a being.

 

[km1141]

If you get to know and learn about God's nature you should know that his plan all along in a relationship should be between a husband and a wife and no other way. In the very beginning God created woman from man instead of any other way. In Genesis 2:24 it goes on to say "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Many verses in the new testament go on to talk about the relationship between a husband and a wife. God is creator of the world and as his creations we should accept what his purpose his and what he wants us to do.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

If you get to know and learn about God's nature you should know that his plan all along in a relationship should be between a husband and a wife and no other way. In the very beginning God created woman from man instead of any other way. In Genesis 2:24 it goes on to say "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Many verses in the new testament go on to talk about the relationship between a husband and a wife. God is creator of the world and as his creations we should accept what his purpose his and what he wants us to do.

Kind of hard to do that if you're not sexually interested in the opposite sex. I guess you didn't think of that little hangup.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree with Penumbra in that ultimately, while people often have good scriptural incentive to persecute homosexuals, most of the time they do so out of a somewhat more mundane distaste for social stances that don't reinforce their own.

Until perhaps the 1960s it took a fair amount of personal determination to have goals that did not explicitly include marrying in the early 20s and having children shortly after. Even today, not too many people are really adapted to the alternatives. It is no coincidence that religions that strongly emphasize traditional families are associated with the people who have the harder time accepting homosexuality.

 

[Autodidact]

I do not have an automatic reaction to homosexuality. I have plenty of gay people in my life for years, friends, employees, relatives. I feel for their struggle since people can be so dam cruel.
I understand the prohibition of gay sex from a religious perspective. What I wonder is why.
Can anyone give an idea (since it is not clearly stated in any scripture) why God has made this prohibition?
Could it be because of the command to have children?
Why do you think so many people take the prohibition so far as to be cruel and even dangerous to gay people?

There's one explanation that always works, never fails, is always consistent with the evidence, and requires no tortured theology. God doesn't exist.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Why would an all-transcendent being (insert anything here)? We don't know. We cannot assume, however, that we know what an all-transcendent being would do or why it would do it.

In fact, I think it is improper (given what we observe in the universe) to believe in such a being unless we can logically justify a reasonable belief in such a being.

See this goes back to what I said in my other thread about egoistic beliefs. If one believes this all-transcendent deity that rules over an entire universe of planets and probably other life has nothing better to do then monitor humans 24/7 then it makes sense god must care about our sexuality. Though if you examine it on the cosmic scale it doesn't measure up.

 

[Gaura Priya]

There was alot of interpretation that all black people bore the mark of Cain and were considered the inheritants of Ham's curse in the Bible, and so strong was this belief and interpretation that it supported segregation as well as slavery for the longest time. My my, how interpretation and lifestyles have changed over the years.

Nowadays, save a very few, one does not even recall the idea of separate races in the Bible anymore, and it is not part of any mainstream Christian theology.

Alot of modern interpretations also see that the Judeo-Christo-Islamic-Baha'i Scriptures are only against anal penetration for any couple, and not against homosexuality per se.

That being said, there are an emerging sub-movement of gay and lesbian and even trans religionists nowadays. In my own locality, there is a gay evangelical church, as well as support groups for Sikhs, Jews, and Muslims who are also LGBT.

 

[Alceste]

I do not have an automatic reaction to homosexuality. I have plenty of gay people in my life for years, friends, employees, relatives. I feel for their struggle since people can be so dam cruel.
I understand the prohibition of gay sex from a religious perspective. What I wonder is why.
Can anyone give an idea (since it is not clearly stated in any scripture) why God has made this prohibition?

The obvious answer is that man - compelled by the siren song of his inherent bigotry and prejudice - inserted his own opinion into holy scriptures.

Could it be because of the command to have children?
Why do you think so many people take the prohibition so far as to be cruel and even dangerous to gay people?

We are human. Persecuting minorities is one of our favorite pastimes. Because we tend to chase and cling to our personal conception of beauty and goodness, all the darkness in our souls needs somewhere to go. Where better to direct our murderous impulses than the smallest of all outsider minorities - a people no other people are likely to rise up to defend or avenge?

If we are to assume (for argument's sake) that good is the work of God and evil is the work of Satan, and that these forces are playing tug-of-war with our (hypothetical) soul, I can't see any reason the forces of evil would not take advantage of any window of opportunity that could be found in religious writing to bend humans toward the darkness. Religious prohibitions against homosexuality, even if they are cosmologically inspired and innocently intended, provide an excellent window.

 

[Tony L Smith]

All right patterns on earth bring understanding of spiritual truth. Male, female, seed, womb, conception, children. There is an order of purpose, prodution and progression. Right order brings Glory to our creator, because it reflects truth. Disorder brings confusion, and darkens the purpose of God in mankinds heart.
On another note God understands the wrong actions that have caused wrong order, but we can't jusifify the ends because of the means, we must be healed and restored.

 

[Beta]

As always there are plenty of views, opinions and interpretations from the human angle , it's only natural we try to understand God from our own perspective. Looking at scripture from another way just does not make sense to us.
Yet Isah.55v7-9 clearly says OUR thoughts and ways are not like HIS and we must forsake OUR wicked ways.
Seems man is not able to for a number of reasons.
But if we are as fair-minded as we THINK we are could we not consider God's reasons for making rules and regulations ?
Why the prohibition of homosexual acts ?
The God of the Bible is also CREATOR - His purpose is ' to bring into Existence '. If we believe scripture we see he also created man - not just to have an earthly existence for a lifetime but to take us further ' into an Eternal Existence as HE is Himself '.
This means to take on the characteristics and qualities of God and we know that homosexual acts produce the opposite of creating. The whole purpose of human life becomes lost and wasted when God can not take it to higher levels. There would be no point of promoting those in whom is lacking the spirit of 'Creating' since their inclinations rest in physical lust and personal satisfaction.
(please forgive me for being blunt but it's hard to squeeze such an important subject into a few sentences.) :yes:

 

[MissAlice]

All right patterns on earth bring understanding of spiritual truth. Male, female, seed, womb, conception, children. There is an order of purpose, prodution and progression. Right order brings Glory to our creator, because it reflects truth. Disorder brings confusion, and darkens the purpose of God in mankinds heart.
On another note God understands the wrong actions that have caused wrong order, but we can't jusifify the ends because of the means, we must be healed and restored.

What about those of us who don't want to produce or unable to?