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Geert Wilders - guilty of "insulting a group"

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I also wish politicians would take such care. But they routinely don't. And in this one particular case, political pressure was such that a trial ensued. Why in this one particular case?
Probably a combination of the targets of his speech bringing it in to the scope of discrimination laws and various political machinations. Again, I'm not saying the court case was a good thing but that doesn't make what he said OK.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Probably a combination of the targets of his speech bringing it in to the scope of discrimination laws and various political machinations. Again, I'm not saying the court case was a good thing but that doesn't make what he said OK.

This is what he is trying to halt in western countries, but ‘freedom of speech’ allows it to continue.

German city submits to Sharia law

However, in that same continent he does not enjoy the same rights to ‘freedom of speech’.

The Dutch Death Spiral: From Paradise to Bolshevik Thought Police
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Probably a combination of the targets of his speech bringing it in to the scope of discrimination laws and various political machinations. Again, I'm not saying the court case was a good thing but that doesn't make what he said OK.

Clearly many Dutch people believe that many Moroccan guests have abused Dutch hospitality. What would be the "OK" way to discuss this issue?

My sense is that many European government officials would rather deny the issue than address it honestly. Of course this is a very delicate situation, but avoiding the issue is unlikely to be a good solution.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Clearly many Dutch people believe that many Moroccan guests have abused Dutch hospitality. What would be the "OK" way to discuss this issue?
Clearly they believe that to be the case but shouldn’t policy be based on fact rather than belief? I’ve no doubt some Moroccans in the Netherlands abuse the advantages they have (be they guests, permeant residents or naturalised Dutch) but so do lots of other people, immigrant and native born. I’m equally sure lots of Moroccans don’t though which is why stirring up generic hatred against them all was wrong. Frankly, if someone isn’t capable of understanding how to discuss this kind of issue without taking it in that direction they should probably avoid professional politics. Of course, that presumes they’re interested in any kind of discussion at all. None of this really addresses any of the actual problems but it does raise Wilders’ election prospects.

My sense is that many European government officials would rather deny the issue than address it honestly. Of course this is a very delicate situation, but avoiding the issue is unlikely to be a good solution.
That’s a government issue, not an immigration one. Officials and elected representatives will obviously seek to play down problems for which there are no easy answers or quick fixes regardless of the subject. Wilders (and those like him) don’t have to worry about that while their seeking office which is why they can generalise, rabble-rouse and come out with impractical “solutions” to simplistic problems but were he to get in to any position of power, he’d quickly realise (if he doesn’t already know) that reality isn’t anything like as simple and he’ll become just as evasive and unspecific about any real practical polices (especially in some of the other areas his politics doesn’t focus on).
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Wilders (and those like him) don’t have to worry about that while their seeking office which is why they can generalise, rabble-rouse and come out with impractical “solutions” to simplistic problems but were he to get in to any position of power, he’d quickly realise (if he doesn’t already know) that reality isn’t anything like as simple and he’ll become just as evasive and unspecific about any real practical polices (especially in some of the other areas his politics doesn’t focus on).

You apparently don't know who Wilders is. He already IS (and has been for some time), a parliamentary group leader in the Netherlands.

So I ask again, just how should this topic be discussed? You seem to be inferring that Wilders has no basis for his claims?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
You apparently don't know who Wilders is. He already IS (and has been for some time), a parliamentary group leader in the Netherlands.
Being in opposition isn't having power. The point is that he isn't in a position to implement whatever policies he believes would achieve his aims.

So I ask again, just how should this topic be discussed? You seem to be inferring that Wilders has no basis for his claims?
This isn't about discussing a topic. This is about Wilders asserting that there are too many Moroccans living in the Netherlands and declaring "something would be done about that". Imagine if you were a member of a group that a populist politician made that kind of declaration about.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Imagine if you were a member of a group that a populist politician made that kind of declaration about.

This IS about discussing a group of people who are inordinately intolerant of their hosts. Should we pretend that the statistics aren't what they are?

If I was a member of such a group, I think I'd leave it. Oh wait, couldn't do that, apostasy is a capital crime!
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Why on Earth would I choose a side that wishes to destroy my identity?

?? I'm proposing just the opposite. I'm proposing a more descriptive system so that people can be more accurately understood.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
This IS about discussing a group of people who are inordinately intolerant of their hosts. Should we pretend that the statistics aren't what they are?

If I was a member of such a group, I think I'd leave it. Oh wait, couldn't do that, apostasy is a capital crime!
Just to be clear here, Wilders was talking about “Moroccans”. A major element of the problem with his statements was the generalised and unqualified targeting.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Just to be clear here, Wilders was talking about “Moroccans”. A major element of the problem with his statements was the generalised and unqualified targeting.

If you do an internet search on "Morrocan crime statistics in the Netherlands" you will find a number of articles, take your pick. The stats show that Morrocan immigrants in the Netherlands are glaringly disproportionately criminal.

In your opinion, at what statistical point are generalizations a valid tool? Are you offended by the entire discipline of statistics?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I found it fascinating that the courts demurred on sentencing Wilders once he was convicted, saying that the mere conviction should serve as a sentence considering his popularity in the Netherlands. However, since the conviction his party has enjoyed a large uptick in the polls. The man could yet become their next Prime Minister.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Just to be clear here, Wilders was talking about “Moroccans”. A major element of the problem with his statements was the generalised and unqualified targeting.
Yeah, sort of like that non-entity from the Republican party who tarred and feathered Mexicans as murderers and rapists. What ever happened to that guy anyway?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
If you do an internet search on "Morrocan crime statistics in the Netherlands" you will find a number of articles, take your pick. The stats show that Morrocan immigrants in the Netherlands are glaringly disproportionately criminal.
Sure, but lots of Moroccans aren't criminals and those who are aren't criminals simply because they're Moroccan. Your and Wilders' call is simply to have fewer Moroccans living in the Netherlands. We could take all the good ones and leave the criminals to satisfy that demand. If you want to address the problems of criminality, why not target criminals rather than single ethnic groups?

In your opinion, at what statistical point are generalizations a valid tool? Are you offended by the entire discipline of statistics?
In this kind of context, never. Men are disproportionately criminals. Does that mean we should make it so there are fewer men living in the world?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If you want to address the problems of criminality, why not target criminals rather than single ethnic groups?
Because if they are Muslims it's called islamophobia. Rather like here in the USA when you target criminals and they happen to be black it's called racism.
Tom
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Because if they are Muslims it's called islamophobia. Rather like here in the USA when you target criminals and they happen to be black it's called racism.
Tom
Most of the criminals in the Netherlands aren't Muslim (or Moroccan - why are you talking about Muslims all of a sudden?) and most of the criminals in America aren't black.

This shouldn't be an issue if you are truly targeting criminals. Of course, if you're supporting the likes of Wilders, you weaken your claims to be interested in targeting actual criminals. Even if you support what you think his message is, you have to challenge his flawed presentation.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Sure, but lots of Moroccans aren't criminals and those who are aren't criminals simply because they're Moroccan. Your and Wilders' call is simply to have fewer Moroccans living in the Netherlands. We could take all the good ones and leave the criminals to satisfy that demand. If you want to address the problems of criminality, why not target criminals rather than single ethnic groups?

In this kind of context, never. Men are disproportionately criminals. Does that mean we should make it so there are fewer men living in the world?

While it's not an easy situation, I cannot imagine that it's intractable. Step 1, no more immigrants from Morocco. Step 2 harsher deportation laws for law breakers, and so on.
 

Parchment

Active Member
Another example of why not going along with the current thought paradigm might end you up on someone's cross, or tied to the pole for the burning.

Most of the reported "far-right" are not far-right at all
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
The non-violent people of Europe have been comatose for too long.

Not before time, they are starting to awaken and see the Islamic threat for what it is.
 
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