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Well, mostly I'm curious what Christians in general think about these passages. These are the most heavily debated areas of the Torah IMO from a religion-to-religion perspective.Aqualung said:I don't know. That covers a lot of stuff. My take (generally, until I know if you want something a bit more specific) is that it is a simplification of the story of the first humans (who actually were adam and eve, and there actually was a noah, etc). It has been simplified to take out unnecessary stuff, and to make it easier to comprehend and remember.
Well, I think it's sin leads to destruction (eating the fruit, the flood, sodom and gomorrah).Deut 13:1 said:Well, mostly I'm curious what Christians in general think about these passages. These are the most heavily debated areas of the Torah IMO from a religion-to-religion perspective.
What's the overall theme in your opinion that HaShem is trying to convey?
Re-read the title of the thread.Aqualung said:Well, I think it's sin leads to destruction (eating the fruit, the flood, sodom and gomorrah).
I don't get it.Deut 13:1 said:Re-read the title of the thread.
Genesis Chapter 1 to Chapter 11. What chapter is sodom and gomorrah?Aqualung said:I don't get it.
Oops. 19-ish. :biglaugh: I just tried to remember what was between those chapters. I could have swore that sodom and gomorrah was before the flood, but I guess I'm wrong. But, anyway, my thing still stands.Deut 13:1 said:Genesis Chapter 1 to Chapter 11. What chapter is sodom and gomorrah?
Was Avraham before Noah?Aqualung said:Oops. 19-ish. :biglaugh: I just tried to remember what was between those chapters. I could have swore that sodom and gomorrah was before the flood, but I guess I'm wrong. But, anyway, my thing still stands.
No. But I forgot about Abraham's and Lot's ties.Deut 13:1 said:Was Avraham before Noah?
Sin is transgression of the law. Now, as a christian, I believe that at this time they were still practicing the law that Christ restored with his coming. They were under the higher law, not the lower mosaic law (since moses hasn't come yet). This sin leads to destruction because God is a just god. I would say, however, that it just leads to temporal destruction. You can redeem yourself from the destruction by repenting and turning back to God's law. Throughout all of this you see that sin leads (at least) to temporal destruction. Adam and Eve transgressed the law (don't eat) and brought death to both themselves and their posterity. Now, this destruction is only finite, and it can definitely lead to good. Noah's people were sinning, and God, being just like he is, had to punish them at some point. So he flooded the earth. God is just, so he won't let sin go unpunished. It's just a matter of when the punishment will come.Deut 13:1 said:Aqualung: Can you expand on how sin leads to destruction? Define Sin if you would.
Well, I hope you will fill me in on your PoV as well. I've never had many discusssions with an orthodox jew. In fact, I don't know any jews outside of the forum, so I know little about judaism. I would definitely like to hear your thoughts as well.Deut said:Again, I'm not going to say your interpretation is right or wong, just curious on your thoughts.
Just so we can be clear, can you state the law(s) that they were under? For example, the 613, the 7 noahide, the one commandment, ect... What, in your opinion are these?Aqualung said:Sin is transgression of the law. Now, as a christian, I believe that at this time they were still practicing the law that Christ restored with his coming. They were under the higher law, not the lower mosaic law (since moses hasn't come yet).
I'll respond when I understand which laws they were under.Aqualung said:This sin leads to destruction because God is a just god. I would say, however, that it just leads to temporal destruction. You can redeem yourself from the destruction by repenting and turning back to God's law.
Well, the Jewish perspective is slightly different, yes, she ate from the tree which was a sin, but she had a greater sin IMO. Although when it comes to Adam's sin, my thoughts dwell outside of mainstream Traditional Judaism.Aqualung said:Throughout all of this you see that sin leads (at least) to temporal destruction. Adam and Eve transgressed the law (don't eat) and brought death to both themselves and their posterity.
Where do you draw that G-d is just? Not saying I disagree, just curious on what grounds you base this on, also, can you define just? Do you mean just as in Truth?Aqualung said:Now, this destruction is only finite, and it can definitely lead to good. Noah's people were sinning, and God, being just like he is, had to punish them at some point. So he flooded the earth. God is just, so he won't let sin go unpunished. It's just a matter of when the punishment will come.
Possibly, althought there are some things I'm not comfortable sharing as I don't believe I have a firm enough understanding.Aqualung said:Well, I hope you will fill me in on your PoV as well. I've never had many discusssions with an orthodox jew. In fact, I don't know any jews outside of the forum, so I know little about judaism. I would definitely like to hear your thoughts as well.
Obedience to....dawny0826 said:Obedience. I think those verses are God's first lessons to us pertaining to obedience.
Well, I'm not sure. I think they were under the law that has always governed christ's church when the knowledge of the fullness of the gospel was on the earth. This is also the law the LDS are under, since we claim the fullness of the gospel, and to be christ's church. I'll admit, though, the OT isn't my strongest point (though I'm working to strengthen it), so I'm not sure which law they were under. Noah wasn't under the 7 noahide until after the flood, though, I think.Deut 13:1 said:Just so we can be clear, can you state the law(s) that they were under? For example, the 613, the 7 noahide, the one commandment, ect... What, in your opinion are these?
Well, I think that part of the law is to be obedient to governemts, so it would be both.Deut said:Also, does sin only refer to religious laws or secular laws as well?
I hope I explained them well enough. Like I say, not my strong point.Deut said:I'll respond when I understand which laws they were under.
Interesting. Is that something you feel comfortable discussing? I think you should start a thread in the judaism forum where I can just ask you stuff.Deut said:Well, the Jewish perspective is slightly different, yes, she ate from the tree which was a sin, but she had a greater sin IMO. Although when it comes to Adam's sin, my thoughts dwell outside of mainstream Traditional Judaism.
Oh, stuff like Nehemia 9:33 "thou art just in all that is brought upon us" and stuff like that.Deut said:Where do you draw that G-d is just? Not saying I disagree, just curious on what grounds you base this on, also, can you define just? Do you mean just as in Truth?
Well, that's fine. I think I should have been as prudent when I decided to discuss the OT with a jew, but I love a challenge, and you certainly make me think.Deut said:Possibly, althought there are some things I'm not comfortable sharing as I don't believe I have a firm enough understanding.
Well, might I suggest making a thread for you and your LDS followers to discuss and come to an agreement before we take this conversation any further? There is no point in saying, "They were under the law that always goverended christs churche" when no one but you knows what those law(s) are/were.Aqualung said:Well, I'm not sure. I think they were under the law that has always governed christ's church when the knowledge of the fullness of the gospel was on the earth. This is also the law the LDS are under, since we claim the fullness of the gospel, and to be christ's church. I'll admit, though, the OT isn't my strongest point (though I'm working to strengthen it), so I'm not sure which law they were under. Noah wasn't under the 7 noahide until after the flood, though, I think.
A slightly more accurate translation of that: וְאַתָּה צַדִּיק, עַל כָּל-הַבָּא עָלֵינוּ: כִּי-אֱמֶת עָשִׂיתָ, וַאֲנַחְנוּ הִרְשָׁעְנוּAqualung said:Oh, stuff like Nehemia 9:33 "thou art just in all that is brought upon us" and stuff like that.
...God.Deut 13:1 said:Obedience to....
Great, so allow me edit that in.dawny0826 said:...God.
And what are those first lessons??Dawny0826 said:Obedience. I think those verses are God's first lessons to us pertaining to obedience to G-d.