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Genesis 1

outhouse

Atheistically
When dealing with early history, basically everything is in question, and one should never consider an opinion as being some sort of slam-dunk.

Yet some of the statements I posted are not.


brushing off the known history due to theistic belief or faith, or personal want and desire, really is not a acceptable replacement hypothesis.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
When we look at the real history with our limited knowledge, and then apply that to how we think Genesis was placed together, many of these so called mysteries disappear.

It is a book that has a very long history of evolving into place, because we don't know with 100% accuracy the complete evolution. Does not mean that we are ignorant to how the book was created.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yet some of the statements I posted are not.


brushing off the known history due to theistic belief or faith, or personal want and desire, really is not a acceptable replacement hypothesis.

But it's not "known"-- each one of them is a hypothesis, as I've run across these before. The issue of us being Canaanites has not been well established at all. The concept that we were polytheistic has not been established beyond any shadow of a doubt. The only one I would really question is this one from you: "The Mesopotamian mythology after the exile is not in question", and I would need to know which exile are you referring to?

The irony is that I tend to lean in the direction that you are likely to be correct on all of them, but it simply ain't a slam-dunk.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
. The issue of us being Canaanites has not been well established at all.
.

Fact according to Israel Finklestein.

What is the alternative to displaced Canaanites and other displaced Semetic people who started moving to the highlands of Israel after 1200 BC?

It is not a fact that at 1200 BC there were only proto Israelites? if not you will need to explain.

Can you explain why all the Israelite deities were worshipped previously by Canaanites?

The concept that we were polytheistic has not been established beyond any shadow of a doubt

Have you read any real history books at all by credible scholars?

They all state monotheism did not take affect until after 622 BC and king Josiahs reforms.

Even then the OT is chocked full of evidence monotheism did not take effect for quite a while despite these reforms.


. The only one I would really question is this one from you: "The Mesopotamian mythology after the exile is not in question", and I would need to know which exile are you referring to?

Babylonian exile.

The flood myths originating in Mesopotamia and Sumeria are about as factual as one can get.

Even their creation mythology stated one of their first men created was Adamu.

I think it is impossible to deny the cultural traits and influence on the Israelites after the exile.






The irony is that I tend to lean in the direction that you are likely to be correct on all of them, but it simply ain't a slam-dunk
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Fact according to Israel Finklestein.

I have read him on several sources, including "The Bible Unearthed". He is an excellent archaeologist but not the archaeologist. I don't know if you can still find it, but he had an excellent debate on the pages of BAR shortly after "The Bible Unearthed" came out with Hershel Shanks whereas Finkelstein backed off on some of his claims. Like yourself, he overstated his "certainty".

What is the alternative to displaced Canaanites and other displaced Semetic people who started moving to the highlands of Israel after 1200 BC?

I agree that the evidence thus far indicates that the division was not between Israelites and Canaanites but was between two elements of Canaanites whereas there was culture conflict between the highlanders and the coastal elements. However, it simply is not a slam dunk no matter how much you may believe it is.

It is not a fact that at 1200 BC there were only proto Israelites? if not you will need to explain.

Well, this is really hard to say one way or the others since we lack writings from that period. However, one thing that's interesting is that no pig bones have been found in the highland areas but they have been found along the coast, thus indicating that the kosher Laws were being followed at least around 1000 or so b.c.e..

Can you explain why all the Israelite deities were worshipped previously by Canaanites?

Well, to me, I think that we indeed went from polytheistic to monotheistic, and the Abraham narrative essentially deals with that probable progression in myth form ("myth" does not mean falsehood but is a story with meanings found within).

Have you read any real history books at all by credible scholars?

Lots.

They all state monotheism did not take affect until after 622 BC and king Josiahs reforms.

Even then the OT is chocked full of evidence monotheism did not take effect for quite a while despite these reforms.

Probably was an evolution rather than an evolution, so attaching a date is highly dubious.

The flood myths originating in Mesopotamia and Sumeria are about as factual as one can get.

And I've posted as such several times recently.

Even their creation mythology stated one of their first men created was Adamu.

Yes, probably.

I think it is impossible to deny the cultural traits and influence on the Israelites after the exile.

Of course there are.

Again, what I said which you didn't allude to is that I tend to agree with the gist of what you're saying, but the problem is that you're overstating the "certainty" of these hypotheses. I've studied theology for many decades, was involved for a short time in a dig just west of Jerusalem, and a close friend of mine co-runs a dig at the edge of the highland area that was occupied by us at the same time the Phoenicians occupied the northern coastal region of eretz Israel.

Again, the evidence does support the general drift of what you're saying, but the problem is that you're overstating the "certainty" of it, plus dating these changes is much more difficult than you seem to understand.

Anyhow, I think your condescending attitude is quite repulsive to me, so I'll beg off any further discussion with you on this matter.

shalom
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I do not believe it to be at all likely.

As an anthropologist, I pretty much have to lean in the direction of what the archaeology is telling us. I think the important thing is that we shouldn't view these hypotheses as in any way threatening Judaism. Yes, it does defy how we tended to look at such things a couple of centuries or more ago, but most of these were assumptions anyway. Our faith doesn't encourage literalism as we have always looked for "the meaning behind the words", which is and was the basis for our commentary system.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
First, thank you for a sincere reply

I have read him on several sources, including "The Bible Unearthed". He is an excellent archaeologist but not the archaeologist. I don't know if you can still find it, but he had an excellent debate on the pages of BAR shortly after "The Bible Unearthed" came out with Hershel Shanks whereas Finkelstein backed off on some of his claims. Like yourself, he overstated his "certainty".

I still thing Israel Finklestein is the premier archeologist whom maximalist are trying to knock off the top of the hill so to speak.

Even when we look at Dever, the only real question is what kind of different Semetic people made up these displaced Canaanites.

I will not follow Redford, to bias.


And yet if we look at every modern scholarship on this topic, we see the archeological evidence pointing to the highlands going from a handful of villages to over whelming numbers 1200BC to 1000BC

Before this time we only see the Merneptah Stele that states we have a nomadic semi nomadic people that were wiped out. And I don't think there is a scholar that doesn't claim at this point they were proto Israelites at best.

Early Israelites are a hard thing to define due to the limited information. What we do know is that by 1000 BC they were multicultural, worshipped the deities of Canaanites, and that their pottery matched Canaanites as well as house foundations.

and this as you pointed out

one thing that's interesting is that no pig bones have been found in the highland areas but they have been found along the coast, thus indicating that the kosher Laws were being followed at least around 1000 or so b.c.e..

Which as you know could very well be pointing to trait due to geographic location
alone.

Did this new culture make this law permanent early on, probably so.



Well, to me, I think that we indeed went from polytheistic to monotheistic, and the Abraham narrative essentially deals with that probable progression in myth form ("myth" does not mean falsehood but is a story with meanings found within).

Yes from a very late redaction.

Abraham himself having no historicity at all, but as you stated oral traditions before the exile that may have had some historicity were used in creating the text. I wish there was more evidence to elude that he did have historicity, but with the obvious Mesopotamian influence of his background, Archeologist have long gave up any attempt to find historicity for him.

With so much that has been found in the last 50 years and added to what is really known, I don't think there will ever be a credible argument against Israelites polytheism that will stand again.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolvedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#cite_note-77

and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[79] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[80] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah, seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[81] After the monarchy emerged at the beginning of Iron Age II, kings promoted their family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court,

religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered as it was also for other societies in the ancient Near East.[82]












Again, what I said which you didn't allude to is that I tend to agree with the gist of what you're saying, but the problem is that you're overstating the "certainty" of these hypotheses.


Actually Im not. And I know you cannot supply any credible sources that say otherwise. Because they do not exist.


so I'll beg off any further discussion with you on this matter.

Sorry didn't mean to come off that way, but these topics have been beat to death here over the last few years, and what ends up happening is Jewish bias tends to show up to overstate historicity of certain events with no real evidence to back it up.

If I mistook you for that I apologize.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
Genesis 1 (Captainbryce Translation)

1 In the beginning God created Jesus Christ as a spiritual being [extrapolated from John 1:3 and Colossians 1:15], through which he created the entire universe and everything in it (to include the angels in heaven, the Earth, the Sun, the Moon, the Stars, the Planets, and all matter, energy, space and time). 2 The earth was formless and empty, and it was dark on the surface of the planet because thick clouds were covering the entire planet and blocked out the sunlight. [extrapolated from Job 38:4-9] The Spirit of God was hovering over the surface.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and the atmosphere was transformed and made translucent, so that the light from the sun could penetrate the clouds. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God spun the earth on it's axis, so that once every rotation, one side of the planet could be light, while the other side is dark. [extrapolated from Job 38:12-13] 5 God referred to the period of light hours as “daytime”, and referred to the period of the hours of darkness as “nighttime.”

And these events marked the end of the first age of creation, and the beginning of the second.

6 Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” 7 And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters on the surface from the water in the upper atmosphere, thereby establishing the earth's natural water cycle. 8 God called the space “sky.”

And these events marked the end of the second age of creation, and the beginning of the third.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters on the surface flow together into one place, so dry ground may appear.” And then plate tectonics caused the continental land masses to form. [extrapolated from Psalm 104:8-9] 10 God called the dry ground “land” and the waters “seas” and oceans. And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout with vegetation—every sort of seed-bearing plant, and trees that grow seed-bearing fruit. These seeds will then produce the kinds of plants and trees from which they came.” And that is what happened. 12 Over time land produced vegetation—all sorts of seed-bearing plants, and trees with seed-bearing fruit. Their seeds produced plants and trees of the same kind. [extrapolated from Psalm 104:14-15] And God saw that it was good.

13 And these events marked the end of the third age of creation, and the beginning of the fourth.

14 Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years. 15 Let these lights in the sky shine down on the earth.” And the atmosphere again was transformed, this time from translucent to transparent, and the heavenly bodies could now be seen for the first time. 16 God made the sun to light the day, and the moon to light the night. He also made the stars which you can now see at night too. [extrapolated from Psalm 104:19] 17 God set ALL these lights in the sky to light the earth, in different ways that help us 18 to govern the day and night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

19 And these events marked the end of the fourth age of creation, and the beginning of the fifth.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with flying animals of every kind.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that scurries and swarms in the water, and every sort of flying animal—each producing offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 Then God blessed them, and allowed them to reproduce in great numbers. The fish and sea creatures filled the seas, and flying animals filled the skies on the earth.”

23 And these events marked the end of the fifth age of creation, and the beginning of the sixth.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth produce every sort of animal, each producing offspring of the same kind—livestock, small animals that scurry along the ground, and wild animals.” And that is what happened. 25 God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to produce offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God (or one of the angels that he previously created) said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings in his own image. First he created Adam, who was male, but then after so much time by himself Adam became lonely so God gave him a female partner, named Eve. But this will be discussed in more detail later in Genesis 2.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.” And human beings eventually populated the entire world and became the dominant species on the planet.

29 Then God said, “Look! I have given you every seed-bearing plant throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food. 30 And I have given every green plant as food for all the animals” And that is what happened.

31 Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!

And these events marked the end of the sixth age, where God completed creation, and the beginning of the seventh age where God is no longer actively creating.


;)
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Genesis 1 (Captainbryce Translation)

1 In the beginning God created Jesus Christ as a spiritual being [extrapolated from John 1:3 and Colossians 1:15], through which he created the entire universe and everything in it (to include the angels in heaven, the Earth, the Sun, the Moon, the Stars, the Planets, and all matter, energy, space and time). 2 The earth was formless and empty, and it was dark on the surface of the planet because thick clouds were covering the entire planet and blocked out the sunlight. [extrapolated from Job 38:4-9] The Spirit of God was hovering over the surface.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and the atmosphere was transformed and made translucent, so that the light from the sun could penetrate the clouds. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God spun the earth on it's axis, so that once every rotation, one side of the planet could be light, while the other side is dark. [extrapolated from Job 38:12-13] 5 God referred to the period of light hours as “daytime”, and referred to the period of the hours of darkness as “nighttime.”

And these events marked the end of the first age of creation, and the beginning of the second.

6 Then God said, “Let there be a space between the waters, to separate the waters of the heavens from the waters of the earth.” 7 And that is what happened. God made this space to separate the waters on the surface from the water in the upper atmosphere, thereby establishing the earth's natural water cycle. 8 God called the space “sky.”

And these events marked the end of the second age of creation, and the beginning of the third.

9 Then God said, “Let the waters on the surface flow together into one place, so dry ground may appear.” And then plate tectonics caused the continental land masses to form. [extrapolated from Psalm 104:8-9] 10 God called the dry ground “land” and the waters “seas” and oceans. And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout with vegetation—every sort of seed-bearing plant, and trees that grow seed-bearing fruit. These seeds will then produce the kinds of plants and trees from which they came.” And that is what happened. 12 Over time land produced vegetation—all sorts of seed-bearing plants, and trees with seed-bearing fruit. Their seeds produced plants and trees of the same kind. [extrapolated from Psalm 104:14-15] And God saw that it was good.

13 And these events marked the end of the third age of creation, and the beginning of the fourth.

14 Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years. 15 Let these lights in the sky shine down on the earth.” And the atmosphere again was transformed, this time from translucent to transparent, and the heavenly bodies could now be seen for the first time. 16 God made the sun to light the day, and the moon to light the night. He also made the stars which you can now see at night too. [extrapolated from Psalm 104:19] 17 God set ALL these lights in the sky to light the earth, in different ways that help us 18 to govern the day and night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

19 And these events marked the end of the fourth age of creation, and the beginning of the fifth.

20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with flying animals of every kind.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that scurries and swarms in the water, and every sort of flying animal—each producing offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 Then God blessed them, and allowed them to reproduce in great numbers. The fish and sea creatures filled the seas, and flying animals filled the skies on the earth.”

23 And these events marked the end of the fifth age of creation, and the beginning of the sixth.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth produce every sort of animal, each producing offspring of the same kind—livestock, small animals that scurry along the ground, and wild animals.” And that is what happened. 25 God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to produce offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God (or one of the angels that he previously created) said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings in his own image. First he created Adam, who was male, but then after so much time by himself Adam became lonely so God gave him a female partner, named Eve. But this will be discussed in more detail later in Genesis 2.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.” And human beings eventually populated the entire world and became the dominant species on the planet.

29 Then God said, “Look! I have given you every seed-bearing plant throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food. 30 And I have given every green plant as food for all the animals” And that is what happened.

31 Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!

And these events marked the end of the sixth age, where God completed creation, and the beginning of the seventh age where God is no longer actively creating.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I really rue the day that non-Jews decided to appropriate Jewish scripture for their own.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I really rue the day that non-Jews decided to appropriate Jewish scripture for their own.
I celebrate the fact that whenever someone half-hardheartedly attempts to criticize someone else's interpretation (merely for being a non-jew) they never seem to be able to provide specific criticisms, only generalizations. I love it that people LOVE to disagree, but are unable to articulate WHY they disagree or point out the specific flaws the in the logic used to justify such an interpretation.

jiFfM.jpg
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
I celebrate the fact that whenever someone half-hardheartedly attempts to criticize someone else's interpretation


Do you believe in a 6000 year old earth and a global flood?


And why would the authors leave Jesus out, if he was created against when the bibles contradicting view of Jesus divinity took place?
 

captainbryce

Active Member
Do you believe in a 6000 year old earth and a global flood?
No, and no. Do you? Relevance?

And why would the authors leave Jesus out, if he was created against when the bibles contradicting view of Jesus divinity took place?
The bible offers no "contradicting view" of Jesus's divinity. And he WASN'T left out. He is mentioned all throughout the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament. Did you ignore the biblical references I put into the text?

John 1:2-3
2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Where is the biblical contradiction? :shrug:
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Relevance?


Wondering why you are destroying the beauty of the original text with your own unsubstantiated interpretation.

You cannot use the text of Hellenist written some 500-1000 years later to spin the original text any way you personally see fit.

That and asking if you were YEC is important, because that tells me you do not take a completely literal view. You choose to interpret text in a personal way not followed by Judaism. These text belong to Judaism, and because Christianity uses them, does not make any willy nilly interpretation correct.

You have shown personal bias by discounting the text of Judaism and placing a higher importance on those of later Hellenist far removed from the collection and compilation and redaction of Genesis.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I celebrate the fact that whenever someone half-hardheartedly attempts to criticize someone else's interpretation (merely for being a non-jew) they never seem to be able to provide specific criticisms, only generalizations. I love it that people LOVE to disagree, but are unable to articulate WHY they disagree or point out the specific flaws the in the logic used to justify such an interpretation.

It's not an interpretaion, it's blatantly making up stuff that is not there.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
No, and no. Do you? Relevance?

The bible offers no "contradicting view" of Jesus's divinity. And he WASN'T left out. He is mentioned all throughout the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament. Did you ignore the biblical references I put into the text?

John 1:2-3
2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:15-16
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Where is the biblical contradiction? :shrug:

No contradicting evidence??? Here is a whole bunch.


Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)


You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)


 
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