Genesis 3:15, the Lady who crushed the serpent's head

[2ndpillar]

What does A&E being sent out of the Garden have to do with the identity of our friend "The Serpent" in the Garden of Eden ? and the identity of the Other God in the Garden.. ?

Your question was: Also .. you do not address the question of the identity of the the other God in the Garden .. What is the name of this God - the one that throws the Adam and Eve out ?

My answer was to quote Genesis 3:23, which is the "LORD God" is the "name of this God-the one that throws the Adam and Eve out".

 

[Sargonski]

Your question was: Also .. you do not address the question of the identity of the the other God in the Garden .. What is the name of this God - the one that throws the Adam and Eve out ?

My answer was to quote Genesis 3:23, which is the "LORD God" is the "name of this God-the one that throws the Adam and Eve out".

That is not an answer to the Serpent question .. and a pathetic answer to the second. The Name of God is not "Lord" -- the word "LORD" is replacing a Name .. YHWH Elohim = "Lord God" in this case The God being referred to is YHWH ..

 

[Brian2]

She/they must be a transgender, because it was a "He" that had their/them foot on the head of the snake.

New King James Version Genesis 3;15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

Most translations seem to agree with you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

I guess the seed of the woman can be seen to be either/both male and female and that can leave the translation more open to the creativity of the translator.

 

[2ndpillar]

I guess the seed of the woman can be seen to be either/both male and female and that can leave the translation more open to the creativity of the translator

Certainly, if you ignore the transcript, you can be open to her "seed" being the apple seed that she may not have eaten to become part of her upcoming sweat and toil. One can create any number of false scenarios, of which the Catholic church seems to do well at creating their own narratives directly in opposition to the "Word of God". When you have the beast of Rome supporting whatever narrative you create, you can pretty much do anything you want, at least until the "end of the age" (Mt 13:25-30). At that time, the world comes crashing down on the false narratives and their holders.

Matthew 13:30 allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

 

[2ndpillar]

That is not an answer to the Serpent question .. and a pathetic answer to the second. The Name of God is not "Lord" -- the word "LORD" is replacing a Name .. YHWH Elohim = "Lord God" in this case The God being referred to is YHWH ..

You have seemed to come across who threw Adam and Eve out of the garden, in spite of me telling you in plain language. Surprise, surprise. And the LORD God is Lord over all creation, including over Adam and Eve, as well as the "serpent", who takes orders from the Lord God.

 

[Sargonski]

You have seemed to come across who threw Adam and Eve out of the garden, in spite of me telling you in plain language. Surprise, surprise. And the LORD God is Lord over all creation, including over Adam and Eve, as well as the "serpent", who takes orders from the Lord God.

No Friend .. tis you who has missed the Boat --- as the Name of the God in the Garden is not YHWH in the first version of the story .. the one where "US" is doing the Creating .. the YHWH redaction of the story was written around 500 BC.

The question is what was the name of the Other God in the Story --- the name of the God of Abraham . which was not YHWH ..

You then avoid the question of the Serpent .. making up some nonsense .. Who is this Serpent that the God in the Garden defeats ? For it too is a God .. just like Satan .. but this God .. unlike Satan .. does not take orders from God..

and the Question is not who you think the Serpent in the story is .. but what did Abraham - and the Israelites think the name of the Snake was

 

[2ndpillar]

No Friend .. tis you who has missed the Boat --- as the Name of the God in the Garden is not YHWH in the first version of the story .. the one where "US" is doing the Creating .. the YHWH redaction of the story was written around 500 BC.

The question is what was the name of the Other God in the Story --- the name of the God of Abraham . which was not YHWH ..

You then avoid the question of the Serpent .. making up some nonsense .. Who is this Serpent that the God in the Garden defeats ? For it too is a God .. just like Satan .. but this God .. unlike Satan .. does not take orders from God..

and the Question is not who you think the Serpent in the story is .. but what did Abraham - and the Israelites think the name of the Snake was

As Abraham ate dinner with the angel of the LORD and negotiated with the "LORD", it was the "LORD" he negotiated with, not the serpent, whose people in Sodom were destroyed. As for the "house of Israel", they didn't understand during the time of Ezekiel 3:7 and they do not understand the words of the "son of man" (Ez 3:3) to this day and will be under judgment (Hosea 5) until they "acknowledge their guilt and seek my face" (Hosea 5:15). If you had listened to the "son of man" as Moses had stated, you would know that the "serpent", the "devil", Satan, and the "dragon". are the same entity (Revelation 20:2). If one doesn't know their enemy, or the "LORD their God", or their king, David, well they had better start "seeking" (Hosea 3:5). The Levites will have to go through the furnace of fire (Jacob's distress per Jeremiah 30:7-11), before they will be able to make any sacrifices (Malachi 3:3 & 18) or to determine righteousness from wickedness. Right now, the Jews are on no better footing then their brethren of the Gentile church. You would think that 6 million deaths under the 3rd Roman empire (3rd Reich) would have woke them up, but all that did was set up the "restoration" of Jerusalem per Joel 3:1, which is a set up for the valley of judgment for the nations/Gentiles, in which Jacob will be "chastened" and the nations "destroyed" (Jeremiah 30:7-31). This will not be spelled out in your Talmud, because the "scribes" made a lie out of the Law. (Jeremiah 8:8) Like the Gentiles, the Jews apparently don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.

 

[Sargonski]

As Abraham ate dinner with the angel of the LORD and negotiated with the "LORD", it was the "LORD" he negotiated with, not the serpent, whose people in Sodom were destroyed. As for the "house of Israel", they didn't understand during the time of Ezekiel 3:7 and they do not understand the words of the "son of man" (Ez 3:3) to this day and will be under judgment (Hosea 5) until they "acknowledge their guilt and seek my face" (Hosea 5:15). If you had listened to the "son of man" as Moses had stated, you would know that the "serpent", the "devil", Satan, and the "dragon". are the same entity (Revelation 20:2). If one doesn't know their enemy, or the "LORD their God", or their king, David, well they had better start "seeking" (Hosea 3:5). The Levites will have to go through the furnace of fire (Jacob's distress per Jeremiah 30:7-11), before they will be able to make any sacrifices (Malachi 3:3 & 18) or to determine righteousness from wickedness. Right now, the Jews are on no better footing then their brethren of the Gentile church. You would think that 6 million deaths under the 3rd Roman empire (3rd Reich) would have woke them up, but all that did was set up the "restoration" of Jerusalem per Joel 3:1, which is a set up for the valley of judgment for the nations/Gentiles, in which Jacob will be "chastened" and the nations "destroyed" (Jeremiah 30:7-31). This will not be spelled out in your Talmud, because the "scribes" made a lie out of the Law. (Jeremiah 8:8) Like the Gentiles, the Jews apparently don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two.

I believe it is YHWH and not the angel of YHWH that Abe negotiates with but it matters not .... what does this have to do with the Serpent ? And why on earth are you Quoting Revelations as if that has anything to do with the story .. or Nazi Germany ?

None of this inteconnected hodge podge makes any sense or addresses the issue at hand .. which is that the God of Abraham is "EL" .. references to YHWH with Abe you can view two ways ... 1) both El and YHWH (the trickster God ? ) appear to Abe 2) the references to YHWH with Abe are from a later Tradition. With Genesis you have a number of traditiosn spliced together .. and you can separate the two as you read the text .. "Lord" is when the Text says "YHWH" - Where "God" is used for many things .. References to more than one God "Elohim" - references to specific name or epiphets of EL - (EL - El Shaddai - El Elyon)

So - Take your Choice -- but neither removes EL from the Text. and El is All OVER - the place. Notice all the various polemics against other Gods .. the various Baals -- Asherah --

Where are the Polemics against "EL" -- the Chief God ? This is because YHWH is not a rival God. During the time of Abe -- EL is the Chief God on Earth. Abe and all the people believer in many Gods ... Abe decides to worship only one of them .. the "Most HIgh"

We are told in Ugaritic Texts (canaanite religious texts) that El has 70 sons .. Deut 32:8 - Tells us that YHWH is one of these Sons.

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided humankind;
he set the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the children of El,
and the Lord’s portion was his people.
Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.

A Theologically Revised Text: Deuteronomy 32:8-9

Most scholars agree that the masoretic text of Deuteronomy 32:8 reflects a theological revision of a more original text reflected in 4QDeutj and the Septuagint. I argue below that the revision encompassed the first word of 32:9. This post concludes...

ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com

So El divides up the nations of the Earth among the "Sons of God" --- these are El's Sons .. YHWH's portion is Israel.

These Sons then fight over who will replace El as Chief over the Earth -- El fades to the background .. but still Chief in Heaven.. YHWH we are told wins the battle and becomes Chief God over the Earth Psalm 82 .. Direct Translation from Hebrew and KJV side by side -
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

Psalm 82:6 I have said you are Gods "Elohim" - Children of the Supreme one "El Oliun"

Who is the Supreme one YHWH is referring to .. and who are these Gods that YHWH has defeated ?

 

[2ndpillar]

I believe it is YHWH and not the angel of YHWH that Abe negotiates with but it matters not .... what does this have to do with the Serpent ? And why on earth are you Quoting Revelations as if that has anything to do with the story .. or Nazi Germany ?

None of this inteconnected hodge podge makes any sense or addresses the issue at hand .. which is that the God of Abraham is "EL" .. references to YHWH with Abe you can view two ways ... 1) both El and YHWH (the trickster God ? ) appear to Abe 2) the references to YHWH with Abe are from a later Tradition. With Genesis you have a number of traditiosn spliced together .. and you can separate the two as you read the text .. "Lord" is when the Text says "YHWH" - Where "God" is used for many things .. References to more than one God "Elohim" - references to specific name or epiphets of EL - (EL - El Shaddai - El Elyon)

So - Take your Choice -- but neither removes EL from the Text. and El is All OVER - the place. Notice all the various polemics against other Gods .. the various Baals -- Asherah --

Where are the Polemics against "EL" -- the Chief God ? This is because YHWH is not a rival God. During the time of Abe -- EL is the Chief God on Earth. Abe and all the people believer in many Gods ... Abe decides to worship only one of them .. the "Most HIgh"

We are told in Ugaritic Texts (canaanite religious texts) that El has 70 sons .. Deut 32:8 - Tells us that YHWH is one of these Sons.

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided humankind;
he set the bounds of the peoples
according to the number of the children of El,
and the Lord’s portion was his people.
Jacob, the lot of his inheritance.

A Theologically Revised Text: Deuteronomy 32:8-9

Most scholars agree that the masoretic text of Deuteronomy 32:8 reflects a theological revision of a more original text reflected in 4QDeutj and the Septuagint. I argue below that the revision encompassed the first word of 32:9. This post concludes...

ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com

So El divides up the nations of the Earth among the "Sons of God" --- these are El's Sons .. YHWH's portion is Israel.

These Sons then fight over who will replace El as Chief over the Earth -- El fades to the background .. but still Chief in Heaven.. YHWH we are told wins the battle and becomes Chief God over the Earth Psalm 82 .. Direct Translation from Hebrew and KJV side by side -
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

Psalm 82:6 I have said you are Gods "Elohim" - Children of the Supreme one "El Oliun"

Who is the Supreme one YHWH is referring to .. and who are these Gods that YHWH has defeated ?

According to your noted Deut 32:8, the "boundaries" were set according to the "number of the sons of Israel", not the sons of your "El", despite what your Ugaritic/Amorite Texts might say. With respect to your number 70, that would include all the sons of Jacob which came to Egypt, excluding the two sons of Joseph, who were already there (Genesis 46:27), which according to my basic math comes to 72. As with respect to the "Spirit" given to Moses, that was distributed between 70 elders of Israel to "bear the burden of all the people" (Numbers 11:16-17). As for your quoted Psalms 82:6, it reads "you are all gods/"mortals"", not "Gods" with respect to the "His own congregation", which is explained by Yeshua as the reference being to the children of Israel in John 10:34, in whom "the word of God came". The multiplying of words does not decrease the number of one's sins (Proverbs 10:19)

New American Standard Bible Deut 32:8
“When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of mankind, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.

Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph who were born to him in Egypt were two persons. All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy

Psalms 82:6…5They do not know or understand; they wander in the darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fall.”…

ew King James Version Proverbs 10:19
In the multitude of words sin is not lacking,

 

[Sargonski]

According to your noted Deut 32:8, the "boundaries" were set according to the "number of the sons of Israel", not the sons of your "El", despite what your Ugaritic/Amorite Texts might say. With respect to your number 70, that would include all the sons of Jacob which came to Egypt, excluding the two sons of Joseph, who were already there (Genesis 46:27), which according to my basic math comes to 72. As with respect to the "Spirit" given to Moses, that was distributed between 70 elders of Israel to "bear the burden of all the people" (Numbers 11:16-17). As for your quoted Psalms 82:6, it reads "you are all gods/"mortals"", not "Gods" with respect to the "His own congregation", which is explained by Yeshua as the reference being to the children of Israel in John 10:34, in whom "the word of God came". The multiplying of words does not decrease the number of one's sins (Proverbs 10:19)

New American Standard Bible Deut 32:8
“When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of mankind, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.

Genesis 46:27 And the sons of Joseph who were born to him in Egypt were two persons. All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy

Psalms 82:6…5They do not know or understand; they wander in the darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7But like mortals you will die, and like rulers you will fall.”…

ew King James Version Proverbs 10:19
In the multitude of words sin is not lacking,

Sorry mate .. but that is a false translation .. the original text does not say .. "Sons of Israel" .. an artifact of later translators to sterilize the Bible from other Gods.

Fortunately Newer Bibles are no longer maintaining the Lie .. as to try to regain some form of integrity ..

Here is the New English Translation -- Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 32 - New English Translation

When the Most High[l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly.[n]
9 For the Lord’s allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.[o]

Please see the footnote

1. Deuteronomy 32:8 tc Heb “the sons of Israel.” The idea, perhaps, is that Israel was central to Yahweh’s purposes and all other nations were arranged and distributed according to how they related to Israel. See S. R. Driver, Deuteronomy (ICC), 355-56. For the MT יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי (bene yisraʾel, “sons of Israel”) a Qumran fragment has “sons of God,” while the LXX reads ἀγγέλων θεοῦ (angelōn theou, “angels of God”), presupposing בְּנֵי אֵל (bene ʾel) or בְּנֵי אֵלִים (bene ʾelim). “Sons of God” is undoubtedly the original reading; the MT and LXX have each interpreted it differently. MT assumes that the expression “sons of God” refers to Israel (cf. Hos. 1:10), while LXX has assumed that the phrase refers to the angelic heavenly assembly (Pss 29:1; 89:6; cf. as well Ps 82). The phrase is also attested in Ugaritic, where it refers to the high god El’s divine assembly. According to the latter view, which is reflected in the translation, the Lord delegated jurisdiction over the nations to his angelic host (cf. Dan. 10:13-21), while reserving for himself Israel, over whom he rules directly. For a defense of the view taken here, see M. S. Heiser, “Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God,” BSac 158 (2001): 52-74.

Good that you have now learned that the some of the Bible translators were lying to you --- and that also you are deceiving yourself .. failing to answer the basic questions asked of you about Psalm 82

Who is the Supreme one ? in Psalm 82 .. "I say Ye are Gods - Sons of the Supreme one"

I will give you a hint --- 82-1 again from the NEV

God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

 

[2ndpillar]

Sorry mate .. but that is a false translation .. the original text does not say .. "Sons of Israel" .. an artifact of later translators to sterilize the Bible from other Gods.

Fortunately Newer Bibles are no longer maintaining the Lie .. as to try to regain some form of integrity ..

Here is the New English Translation -- Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 32 - New English Translation

When the Most High[l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly.[n]
9 For the Lord’s allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.[o]

Please see the footnote

1. Deuteronomy 32:8 tc Heb “the sons of Israel.” The idea, perhaps, is that Israel was central to Yahweh’s purposes and all other nations were arranged and distributed according to how they related to Israel. See S. R. Driver, Deuteronomy (ICC), 355-56. For the MT יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי (bene yisraʾel, “sons of Israel”) a Qumran fragment has “sons of God,” while the LXX reads ἀγγέλων θεοῦ (angelōn theou, “angels of God”), presupposing בְּנֵי אֵל (bene ʾel) or בְּנֵי אֵלִים (bene ʾelim). “Sons of God” is undoubtedly the original reading; the MT and LXX have each interpreted it differently. MT assumes that the expression “sons of God” refers to Israel (cf. Hos. 1:10), while LXX has assumed that the phrase refers to the angelic heavenly assembly (Pss 29:1; 89:6; cf. as well Ps 82). The phrase is also attested in Ugaritic, where it refers to the high god El’s divine assembly. According to the latter view, which is reflected in the translation, the Lord delegated jurisdiction over the nations to his angelic host (cf. Dan. 10:13-21), while reserving for himself Israel, over whom he rules directly. For a defense of the view taken here, see M. S. Heiser, “Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God,” BSac 158 (2001): 52-74.

Good that you have now learned that the some of the Bible translators were lying to you --- and that also you are deceiving yourself .. failing to answer the basic questions asked of you about Psalm 82

Who is the Supreme one ? in Psalm 82 .. "I say Ye are Gods - Sons of the Supreme one"

I will give you a hint --- 82-1 again from the NEV

God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

I think your made-up version is standing alone, as is your strange conclusions. Your Hittite "El" means god. But then again, to each his own. Angels or men, are not Gods, but sons of God (Job 1:6), and therefore are considered gods, which includes "Satan". King James Bible Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came along Psalm 82:1 New International Version . God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods": New Living Translation God presides over heaven’s court; he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings: English Standard Version God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: Berean Standard Bible A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods: King James Bible A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. New King James Version A Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. New American Standard Bible A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His position in His assembly; He judges in the midst of the gods. NASB 1995 A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. NASB 1977 God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. 82:1

 

[Sargonski]

​

I think your made-up version is standing alone, as is your strange conclusions. Your Hittite "El" means god. But then again, to each his own. Angels or men, are not Gods, but sons of God (Job 1:6), and therefore are considered gods, which includes "Satan". King James Bible Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came along Psalm 82:1 New International Version . God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods": New Living Translation God presides over heaven’s court; he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings: English Standard Version God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: Berean Standard Bible A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods: King James Bible A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. New King James Version A Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods. New American Standard Bible A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His position in His assembly; He judges in the midst of the gods. NASB 1995 A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. NASB 1977 God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. 82:1

Are you having difficulty understanding up from down mate ? What "Made Up" version ? I gave you the link to the translation used in previous post Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

and you were also given the direct translation from Hebrew --- https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

Both use the proper name "EL" as is proper when talking about the "Assembly of El" "Congregation of El " aka - Divine Council

And we covered the fact that standard translations just use the word God for "El - Elohim - El Shaddai .. and so on"

and these two passages that you put up say the same thing pretty much .. just leaving out the proper name EL . but this is understood.
English Standard Version
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Berean Standard Bible
A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:


So What part of using your translation "Among the Gods" are you having trouble understanding ? Who are these Gods ? that YHWH is Judging .. ???

What part of verse 6
You are gods , all of you are sons of the Supreme one -- Sons of EL - are you having trouble understanding ?

These are Gods being discussed .. not "Sons of Israel" .. YHWH is not defeating humans .. that wouldn't be very Godly now would it .. nor is he in a council of humans .. he is in the Divine Council . .which consists of many Gods .. El being the Most High .. which is why it is called the Council of El - Congregation of El - Assembly of El

This is no longer debated in serious theological circles .. we know what the Council of El refers to. This was a Psalm -- as in a song they would sing in Church .. in the Temple .. Not sure who wrote this one .. David wrote many.

Now while you may not have heard of the Council of El .. everyone at the time when these were sung knew what the Council of El was .. because they all believed in many Gods .. there was no such thing as monotheism among the Israelites or in their theology. They believed in many Gods .. but were only to worship one of them .. because YHWH was Jealous of the others.

Not only did Every Israelite know what the Council of El was referring to .. Every person in Mesopotamia knew what this is referring to .. and we know this beyond a shadow of a doubt .. for a little over a decade now .. hence newer translations using the actual proper Name "EL"

The people singing this song in Church .. ALL believed in the divine Pantheon .. every single one. This however did not make them polytheists .. for while they believed in other Gods .. they only worship one .. and in this song we have YHWH triumphing over these other Gods - which is a metaphor for most of the Post Exodus OT -- YHWH beating up on the other Gods ..

 

[2ndpillar]

Are you having difficulty understanding up from down mate ? What "Made Up" version ? I gave you the link to the translation used in previous post Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

and you were also given the direct translation from Hebrew --- https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

Both use the proper name "EL" as is proper when talking about the "Assembly of El" "Congregation of El " aka - Divine Council

And we covered the fact that standard translations just use the word God for "El - Elohim - El Shaddai .. and so on"

and these two passages that you put up say the same thing pretty much .. just leaving out the proper name EL . but this is understood.
English Standard Version
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Berean Standard Bible
A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:


So What part of using your translation "Among the Gods" are you having trouble understanding ? Who are these Gods ? that YHWH is Judging .. ???

What part of verse 6
You are gods , all of you are sons of the Supreme one -- Sons of EL - are you having trouble understanding ?

These are Gods being discussed .. not "Sons of Israel" .. YHWH is not defeating humans .. that wouldn't be very Godly now would it .. nor is he in a council of humans .. he is in the Divine Council . .which consists of many Gods .. El being the Most High .. which is why it is called the Council of El - Congregation of El - Assembly of El

This is no longer debated in serious theological circles .. we know what the Council of El refers to. This was a Psalm -- as in a song they would sing in Church .. in the Temple .. Not sure who wrote this one .. David wrote many.

Now while you may not have heard of the Council of El .. everyone at the time when these were sung knew what the Council of El was .. because they all believed in many Gods .. there was no such thing as monotheism among the Israelites or in their theology. They believed in many Gods .. but were only to worship one of them .. because YHWH was Jealous of the others.

Not only did Every Israelite know what the Council of El was referring to .. Every person in Mesopotamia knew what this is referring to .. and we know this beyond a shadow of a doubt .. for a little over a decade now .. hence newer translations using the actual proper Name "EL"

The people singing this song in Church .. ALL believed in the divine Pantheon .. every single one. This however did not make them polytheists .. for while they believed in other Gods .. they only worship one .. and in this song we have YHWH triumphing over these other Gods - which is a metaphor for most of the Post Exodus OT -- YHWH beating up on the other Gods ..

Here is a Hebrew translation of Psalms 82:1: A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16303 Apparently, they didn't include the translation of the Amorites.

As for there being many gods, certainly that is what the 1st Commandment states, and Job 1:6 states that Satan is one of the sons of God. The LORD God gives free reign to the god who is called the "dragon"/"serpent"/"devil" over the kings/princes of the nations/Gentiles, as shown in Daniel 2-10, and with respect to Revelation 13:4.

 

[Sargonski]

Here is a Hebrew translation of Psalms 82:1: A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16303 Apparently, they didn't include the translation of the Amorites.

As for there being many gods, certainly that is what the 1st Commandment states, and Job 1:6 states that Satan is one of the sons of God. The LORD God gives free reign to the god who is called the "dragon"/"serpent"/"devil" over the kings/princes of the nations/Gentiles, as shown in Daniel 2-10, and with respect to Revelation 13:4.

Holy Kabab you are not getting this .. LOOK -- In the English Bible you will notice that sometimes God is Written as "Lord" and sometimes as "God"

ARE you with me so far ? ..

2) NO - "GOD" is not what is written in Hebrew .. God is what was substituted for many different Hebrew words.. as told you previously. This word could be El - the proper name of the High God .. El Shaddai -- an epiphet for God the meaning of which is cloudy .. somethign to do with mountain Peaks one of Bull - El's epiphets .. God who dwells in the mountain .. El Elyon -- God most High ... Elohim - God or divinities

So when you read your Bible and it says "LORD" - the actual Hebrew word was not "Lord" .. it is "YHWH" -- the actual Name is being used.

When you read "GOD" it could be any one of the above variations .. each meaning differnt things in many cases..

In "This Case" Psalm 82:1 The first "God" is "Elohim" As Translated directly for you here ... from the "Scripture for All" site https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

Nothing to do with any Amorites so far.. The Elohim being referred to is YHWH ..

The second use of the term God "Congregation of God" "EL" is the Hebrew Word.

and the Bible you don't like .. is not Amorite either .. one of many on a standard Bible Site. Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment

and yes ... there are many other Gods mentioned in the Bible .. as in this passage .. same Divine Council we encounter in Job ..

God of Abraham was El - Thats what the Encyclopedia Brittanica will tell you ..

The Serpent in the Garden is likely Tiamat ...

 

[dybmh]

God is what was substituted for many different Hebrew words.. as told you previously. This word could be El - the proper name of the High God .. El Shaddai -- an epiphet for God the meaning of which is cloudy .. somethign to do with mountain Peaks one of Bull - El's epiphets .. God who dwells in the mountain .. El Elyon -- God most High ... Elohim - God or divinities

It's just a generic word for a divine power.

 

[Sargonski]

It's just a generic word for a divine power.

Absolutely not --- ? ? Not sure what about this folks are having so much trouble with.

OK -- so you have someone translating a Hebrew text -- Modern Bibles used the MT - Masoretic Text .for the Old Testament. compiled around 700-900 AD ..

In that text .. you have many words for "divine Power" each meaning different things. El for example is the name of the Most High God ... not just for Hebrew speaking people .. but for everyone ... Abe would have been speaking Canaanite .. Hebrew derives from there .. would not be able to distinguish one from the other in Abe's day .. but I digress.

So .. El is the Personal name of the Most High .. Elohim can mean a number of things .. this is a more general word for divinity but even this will have differnt meanings in context .. or epiphets for God such as "El Shaddai" El Elyon .. God Most High -- that kind of thing

So when you see "God" in the text .. you have no idea what the Hebrew word was .. some kind of divinity when you see Lord in the text -- thats where the personal name of YHWH was used. So when you see "Lord" or "Lord God" .. you know it is YHWH .. When you read "GOD" you have no idea .. was a way of deleting out the polytheistic past.

When you go to older texts 200 BC rather than 900 AD -- you can see the old Gods still there smiling back .. and unfortunately also see some pious fraud .. the deletion of these other divinities in the MT ...

For example Deuteronomy 32:43 -- in the LXX and 4 DEutQ - both 200BC .. both have other divinities all having a party up in heaven .. angels on a separate level .. which is quite cool .. reinforcing that these other divinities were actual Gods .. Like in Job but with More Color. the Sons of God come alive a Little. .. completely omitted in the Masoretic Text (MT) .. and they did it on purpose .. could get roasted for heresy rather easily in those days.. Jews already on a bad foot .. last thing they need is someone pulling up Jewish texts talking about other Gods.

 

[dybmh]

El for example is the name of the Most High God

As you know, El Elyon, means most high divine power. Elyon, means supreme, El means divine power.

not just for Hebrew speaking people .. but for everyone ... Abe would have been speaking Canaanite .. Hebrew derives from there .. would not be able to distinguish one from the other in Abe's day .. but I digress.

And as I mentioned in the other thread, you need to go look at canaanite writing and look for the vowels, there are none. So, this idea that "everyone" was worshipping the same god, with the same name, is pretty weak.

See here: Lev. 19:4

​

אל־תפנו אל־האלילם ואלהי מסכה לא תעשו לכם אני יהוה אלהיכם׃​

​

Turn you not to idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods; I am the Lord your God.​

It's just a generic name for a divine power, it could even be an idol.

So, sure, the other nations had their divine power(s), which maybe they called El, IL, or Ellim, or ILim. But it's not the "main" God of the Jewish people. The reason you see it in so many different contexts is because it's generic.

you have many words for "divine Power" each meaning different things

Oh? What are those?

El is the Personal name of the Most High

No. It's impersonal. How and why did you come to this conclusion? How often is it used independently as a "personal" name?

So when you see "God" in the text .. you have no idea what the Hebrew word was

Well, now you're just talking rubbish. Of course I know what Hebrew word is used because I look to see what Hebrew word is used. It's important to understand what's actually happening in the story. And my studies are 99% coming from Jewish sources which bring the original Hebrew along with the english. Often it is directly above the english, or at least off to the side. You see, in Judaism the Hebrew is MORE IMPORTANT than the english. So, I promise you, I know which Hebrew word is used each time.

When you go to older texts 200 BC rather than 900 AD

Not really.

For example Deuteronomy 32:43 -- in the LXX and 4 DEutQ - both 200BC

That's your 1 good example. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. That's it. 1 example. Psalm 82 is out. We can go over that one line by line if you want. And we don't even need to use the alt. translation to "testimony" instead of "assembly". It simply doesn't work with the "pagan-pantheon" translation. Did you read that article I posted? It's important because whereever you're getting this info from, they *really* are only giving you one-side of the story.

But I do admit that whoever changed Deut 32, opened up pandoras box.

 

[Sargonski]

As you know, El Elyon, means most high divine power. Elyon, means supreme, El means divine power.




And as I mentioned in the other thread, you need to go look at canaanite writing and look for the vowels, there are none. So, this idea that "everyone" was worshipping the same god, with the same name, is pretty weak.

See here: Lev. 19:4

​

אל־תפנו אל־האלילם ואלהי מסכה לא תעשו לכם אני יהוה אלהיכם׃​

​

Turn you not to idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods; I am the Lord your God.​

It's just a generic name for a divine power, it could even be an idol.

So, sure, the other nations had their divine power(s), which maybe they called El, IL, or Ellim, or ILim. But it's not the "main" God of the Jewish people. The reason you see it in so many different contexts is because it's generic.



Oh? What are those?



No. It's impersonal. How and why did you come to this conclusion? How often is it used independently as a "personal" name?



Well, now you're just talking rubbish. Of course I know what Hebrew word is used because I look to see what Hebrew word is used. It's important to understand what's actually happening in the story. And my studies are 99% coming from Jewish sources which bring the original Hebrew along with the english. Often it is directly above the english, or at least off to the side. You see, in Judaism the Hebrew is MORE IMPORTANT than the english. So, I promise you, I know which Hebrew word is used each time.



Not really.



That's your 1 good example. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. That's it. 1 example. Psalm 82 is out. We can go over that one line by line if you want. And we don't even need to use the alt. translation to "testimony" instead of "assembly". It simply doesn't work with the "pagan-pantheon" translation. Did you read that article I posted? It's important because whereever you're getting this info from, they *really* are only giving you one-side of the story.

But I do admit that whoever changed Deut 32, opened up pandoras box.

Sorry dude .. The Personal Name of EL = Enlil shows up 5 or 6 times .. OK .. Then you have many epiphets for EL El Shaddai - El Elyon .. God Most High and a number of Epiphets for El .. "The Father" "The Creator" The Most High .. The Supreme one. ..

This is basic theological scholarship 101 these days I am afraid .. which is why if you look up Abe in the Encyclopedia Britannica it will tell you that his God was EL -- Chief God of The Sumerian Pantheon in those parts .. and had been for over 1000 years prior to ABE showing up -- Everybody ..in cluding ABE -- looked upon El as "The Most High"

What part of .. The Israelites believed in a divine pantheon .. is having trouble sinking in ?

 

[2ndpillar]

Holy Kabab you are not getting this .. LOOK -- In the English Bible you will notice that sometimes God is Written as "Lord" and sometimes as "God"

ARE you with me so far ? ..

2) NO - "GOD" is not what is written in Hebrew .. God is what was substituted for many different Hebrew words.. as told you previously. This word could be El - the proper name of the High God .. El Shaddai -- an epiphet for God the meaning of which is cloudy .. somethign to do with mountain Peaks one of Bull - El's epiphets .. God who dwells in the mountain .. El Elyon -- God most High ... Elohim - God or divinities

So when you read your Bible and it says "LORD" - the actual Hebrew word was not "Lord" .. it is "YHWH" -- the actual Name is being used.

When you read "GOD" it could be any one of the above variations .. each meaning differnt things in many cases..

In "This Case" Psalm 82:1 The first "God" is "Elohim" As Translated directly for you here ... from the "Scripture for All" site One moment, please...

Nothing to do with any Amorites so far.. The Elohim being referred to is YHWH ..

The second use of the term God "Congregation of God" "EL" is the Hebrew Word.

and the Bible you don't like .. is not Amorite either .. one of many on a standard Bible Site. Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment

and yes ... there are many other Gods mentioned in the Bible .. as in this passage .. same Divine Council we encounter in Job ..

God of Abraham was El - Thats what the Encyclopedia Brittanica will tell you ..

The Serpent in the Garden is likely Tiamat ...

Yeah, your Brittanica Encyclopedia is my source with respect to paying my bills by next Tuesday. You have "Lord", as in being a ruler, and you have "LORD" as being the creator. They can be the same when you have God is Lord of the universe, or you can have the "LORD", who is YHWH. The language you were referring to was Amorite, and or Hittite. The point is that it was the "LORD God" who threw Adam and Eve out of the garden per Genesis (Gen 3:23) and not some other entity.

 

[Sargonski]

Yeah, your Brittanica Encyclopedia is my source with respect to paying my bills by next Tuesday. You have "Lord", as in being a ruler, and you have "LORD" as being the creator. They can be the same when you have God is Lord of the universe, or you can have the "LORD", who is YHWH. The language you were referring to was Amorite, and or Hittite. The point is that it was the "LORD God" who threw Adam and Eve out of the garden per Genesis (Gen 3:23) and not some other entity.

Nothing wrong with Encyclopedia Brittanica as a source .. in fact its a great source for the point being made --- as it will tell you what the scholarly and theological consensus is .. one which has only strenghtnened of late .. due to historical - archeaological and other finds such as the mass of texts found at Ugarite .. telling us about the religious beliefs of the people of that time period .. and in that geographic location ..

and the language I was referring to was Hebrew .. not Amorite and/or Hittite .. that would be made up nonsense on yur part. but If I was to be referring to another language .. it would be Canaanite .. which is the mother language of Hebrew ... and around the time of Abe --- They would be speaking some kind of proto Canaanite / Aramaic language .. Hebrew not yet invented ... but we don't have that .. what we have is the Bible which is Written in Hebrew .. and I gave you the direct translation from Hebrew to English .. and all the people singing this Song 82 in the temple --- knew what the Divine Council of EL was .. understood .. and believed in a divine Pantheon .. All of them -- do you understand ? and not just all the Israelites .. all the other peoples around the Israelites who shared similar religious beliefs .. All Regarding El as "The Most High" in heaven .. and perhaps on Earth during Abes time .. but by the time the Israelites were building the Temple .. the Sons of El were battling for control of Earth .. the Bible telling us all about those battles .. YHWH was one of the Sons of El .. battling to usurp El's position on Earth .. as was Marduk .. the Baals and so on. El remains Most High -- - but now in Heaven .. is the "Sons of God" who battle it out for the "Most High" on Earth .. and each God assumes the various epiphets of EL -- "The Father" "Creator" and on .. and on.


So Friend -- it is no longer debated in serious circles --- the identity of Abram's God --- This "Most High" God that Abram and Melchizedek were worshiping together .. Abram recognizing Melchizedek's authority .. who was a Priest-King -- of Jerusalem - a Canaanite Priest-King .. as were many of Abram's concubines -- and women from other foreign nations.. but .. El had no problem with that you see .. YHWH was the one who cared about Purity.



The God of Abraham was El --- Sorry mate .. but this is no longer some secret ..