"Marduk"/Bel was considered the main deity of Babylon (Rev 17:5), and of the family of Tiamat, the "World Dragon". "Babylon the Great", would be the mystery religion of Babylon, in which Revelation 13:4 refers to the "dragon" as being the god worshipped, who gave their authority to the beast/kings. No one says the "dragon"/"devil"/"Satan" does not exist, it is just that it is just one of the many "other gods" of the 1st commandment. If you read Daniel 10, you will find that all the princes are fighting against "the man dressed in linen", along with the prince of Israel (Michael). Per Daniel 2:45, all the kingdoms will be crushed, individually, and then all at the same time (Daniel 2:35). Your narrative comes from Sumeria, whose dynasty predates Assyria. As for Abraham, God had no problems with Abraham. As for the gods of the Cannanites, along with their idols, apparently, God had problems with them, including Marduk/Bel (Jeremiah 50:2), whereas "Marduk" and "her" "images" have been "shattered" and "Bel" has been "put to "shame". Bel was worshipped as the sun god, as is Mithras, and Sol Invictus, the god of the Roman emperor Constantine, are worshipped by his Roman Gentile church. As for one mistaking up as down and down as up, that is a common problem, that seems to be prevalent below the equator.
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Genesis 3:15, the Lady who crushed the serpent's head
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Not sure why you are talking about random intersections of Near East Religious belief and Biblical apocraphia - as if this is "My Narrative" This is the narrative of the Bible ? I am just telling you what the Israelites believed .. what was Their Narrative --- and as such - Revelations doesn't help us .. the Ancient Israelites didn't have Revelations .. Nor Daniel for that matter .. written around 200 BC --- "However" Daniel may have been in compiled from an older source .. which then would have relevance. but not Revelations .. that would be ridiculous. and what on earth does Mithras and Constantine have to do with anything ?
trying to put something coherent together from this random spattering of arrows .. most way off target.
You do mention one God that is relevant -- "Marduk" - The God that ends up taking out YHWH in the End .. YHWH losing the battle .. the place where the name of YHWH resides -- Utterly Destroyed .
Abe would have known Marduk -- being from Ur -- round the time of Hammurabi - Marduk was the God who Defeats Tiamat .. and for this is granted Chiefdom over the Earth .. usurping the position of EL as Chief God on Earth -- El is still around .. as "Most High" in the heavens.
Marduk is a Son of El -Enlil or Ea- Enki -- it matters not .. as during the the time of the Israelites (meaning the after Moses -- when YHWH has introduced himself) There are many other "Sons of God" battling to take over the position of Cheif God on earth. YHWH even loses a few battles along the way .. one time losing to Chemosh of the Moabites .. only later securing defeat -- and what is really cool is that the Bible Story coincides with the famous "Moabite Stone" where he have the story from the Moabite Perspective... of this famous battle .. which Chemosh wins.
Abe was 500 years prior to these events .... Abe does not want anything to do with these up and cumming Usurpers of El .. battling for dominion over the Earth. Abe wants only to worship the High God El --- YHWH is not in the picture. At the time of Abe you will find names of Kings with "Enlil" in their name .. which is super important as all these kings would name themselves after the patron God .. which was often the War God. Nebochadnezzar for example was the God Nebo .. it is worthy to note that Marduk is their War God ..
So Melchizedek .. the "Most High" God of this Canaanite Priest King of Jerusalem .. is the God that Adopts Abe ... the God that Abe Worships.
Now if you look into the name Zedek .. things get very interesting .. this was the Patron God of Jerusalem .. Was A God of Righteousness and Justice .. Melchizedek then the Prince of Peace in a manner of speaking ..
500 years later - when David is knocking on Jerusalem's Door --- the name of the King is "Adoni-Zedek"
Now what do you think David does to the High Priest in Jerusalem of this Pagan God .. What Punishment from YHWH is meted out to this fellow .. whose name is "Zedok" -- and what is the priestly order supplanted by David .. was it the Levites ?
There is a google task for you -- and perhaps you might have to read your Bible for a change .. Find out what happened to this ancient Priestly Class .. the Priestly Order from which Jesus descends ..
Bout time you started learning about " The Lord" mate. Finish the story Please I can't wait to heart the ending .. but, must confess am quite concerned abou the fate of Zedok -- given the rather nasty and brutal and xenophobic history of the Israelites.
Apparently, your "Lord" is Marduk/Bel, whereas Jeremiah 50:2 dispels your claim of your god's win. The "leader of the world" (John 14:30) will only lead the kings/kingdoms until his time, the time of the dragon, is finished (Daniel 2:45)(Daniel 7:27)(Rev 17:17-18 & 21). Your "Babylon the Great", Tiamat. queen of heaven (World Dragon) is destined for "destruction" at the "end of the age". (Rev 18:21) Revelation is about things about to take place, and one of which is the overthrow of Babylon the Great and her gods, which include Marduk, and her grandmother, "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots", Tiamat, the queen of heaven, known as the "world dragon". As for the Levites, they will be brought through a furnace of fire and become acceptable (Malachi 3:3-4) along with the offering of Judah and Jerusalem.
New American Standard Bible Jeremiah 50:2
“Declare and proclaim among the nations. Proclaim it and lift up a flag, Do not conceal it. Say, ‘Babylon has been captured, Bel has been put to shame, Marduk has been shattered; Her idols have been put to shame, her images have been shattered.’
New King James Version Jeremiah 50:2
“Declare among the nations, Proclaim, and set up a standard; Proclaim—do not conceal it— Say, ‘Babylon is taken, Bel is shamed. Merodach is broken in pieces; Her idols are humiliated, Her images are broken in pieces.
New American Standard Bible Rev 18:21
Then a strong angel picked up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will never be found again.
New American Standard Bible John 14:30
I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in regard to Me,
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
*eye rolls*
If El = Enlil then Dan = Daniel. Is Dan the son of Jacob the same as Daniel from the tribe of Judah?
See how that works? It's got to be one of the dumbest assertions I've ever heard.
Your screename is Sargonski.
Is Sargonski = Sargent?
Is Sargonski = Sarah?
Is Sargonski = Sarina?
This is putting your finger on the scales. If you have to make two completely different names equal to make a point, it's a fail. Massive fail.
WOH! 5 or 6 times???? In the whole Tanach? Have you checked to see which books and who's the author? I'm pretty sure those are in Psalms, written by others, not even King David. Not by prophets. And it certainly doesn't communicate anything about Abe, or big Moe, or any of the major characters in the story.
YHVH - 6007 occurences ... compared to 5 or 6
Elohim - 608 occurences ... comapred to 5 or 6
El Shaddai - 5 times
El Elyon - 5 times
In the entire Tanach!!!
Nopey-nope. God is never, not once called "The Father" in the Hebrew bible. Trust me, Christians everywhere would be high-fiving and doing a happy dance if that were the case. God wants to be known as the "God of your fathers". God wants to be known as the one who disciples like a father. And maybe, maybe there's one place in late Isaiah where God is considered a father. But never-never a father of baby-gods like you are imagining. Never not once. God procreating like humans is a pagan imagination.
And, if you are trying to make a big deal about God being a creator, and this somehow means that this god concept is copied from the surrounding areas, think again. There are so many creator gods out there in myth and legend. It's so common. Obviously different people can come up with the same idea like this without any copying, borrowing, or interaction. Same with the "Supreme One".
None. I understand it much better than you. Obviously. And that's because I actually look up and check what people are talking about. And I'm only conversing with you to draw out your weak failed arguments to add them to my collection.
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*eye rolls*
If El = Enlil then Dan = Daniel. Is Dan the son of Jacob the same as Daniel from the tribe of Judah?
See how that works? It's got to be one of the dumbest assertions I've ever heard.
Your screename is Sargonski.
Is Sargonski = Sargent?
Is Sargonski = Sarah?
Is Sargonski = Sarina?
This is putting your finger on the scales. If you have to make two completely different names equal to make a point, it's a fail. Massive fail.
WOH! 5 or 6 times???? In the whole Tanach? Have you checked to see which books and who's the author? I'm pretty sure those are in Psalms, written by others, not even King David. Not by prophets. And it certainly doesn't communicate anything about Abe, or big Moe, or any of the major characters in the story.
YHVH - 6007 occurences ... compared to 5 or 6
Elohim - 608 occurences ... comapred to 5 or 6
El Shaddai - 5 times
El Elyon - 5 times
In the entire Tanach!!!
Nopey-nope. God is never, not once called "The Father" in the Hebrew bible. Trust me, Christians everywhere would be high-fiving and doing a happy dance if that were the case. God wants to be known as the "God of your fathers". God wants to be known as the one who disciples like a father. And maybe, maybe there's one place in late Isaiah where God is considered a father. But never-never a father of baby-gods like you are imagining. Never not once. God procreating like humans is a pagan imagination.
And, if you are trying to make a big deal about God being a creator, and this somehow means that this god concept is copied from the surrounding areas, think again. There are so many creator gods out there in myth and legend. It's so common. Obviously different people can come up with the same idea like this without any copying, borrowing, or interaction. Same with the "Supreme One".
None. I understand it much better than you. Obviously. And that's because I actually look up and check what people are talking about. And I'm only conversing with you to draw out your weak failed arguments to add them to my collection.
"I understand it much better than you " - is the cry of the defeated .. and is clearly false. That EL is the God of Abraham .. is what Modern scholarship has to say .. go look up Abraham in the Encyclopedia Brittanica .. This is not debated in serious theological circles .. .which means every circle but the Evangelical / Fundamentalists.
Upon hearing Abe's God was El .. you ran around crying NO NO NO .. it can't be true .. proving you have not the faintest idea about modern theological scholorship.
When told that the Israelites believed in many Gods .. and spent most of their time worshiping other Gods in addition to YHWH .. you cry "No No No --- I understand it much better than you" .. when again .. this is Bible theology 101. Never mind History - Archaeology - .. it is the Bible that tells us this .. Obviously it is you who lacks understanding .. appearing not to have read the book..
Show from the Bible how often the Israelites .. starting with ABE -- are worshiping only YHWH . .. Obviously you havn't the faintest clue about the Old Testiment .. if you think the Israelites were not worshiping other Gods .. a whole lot of the time ..
So from ABE .. down to Josiah -- just before Babylon destroyed the Temple .. and YHWH call it 600AD so 1200 years. Roughly .. how many years were spent Worshiping Only YHWH. No need to be extremely accurate +/- a decade or two would be fine .. give it your best estimate .. since you know so much about the Bible ..
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I asked you a simple question: Is Dan = Daniel?
And I haven't denied anything except the pagan pantheon.
It is well known that Abe came from Idol worshippers.
And I showed you that YHWH was 6000+ occurences compared to your 5 or 6 occurences. I asked you which books those were in and their authors. No answer?
Now, on to your question: You asked: "how many years were spent Worshiping Only YHWH?" Ummmmm... ZERO. The Jewish people couldn't last 40 days post-sinai without reverting to idol worship. That is the entire point. They came from Egypt steeped in idol worship. And that continued post-conquest. Through the prophets... I mean, it's the whole dang thing.
My question: Does the Torah condone this? Is it a story that promotes polytheism or violently opposes polytheism? Your honest answer would be great. Thanks.
You have been crying out "I know better than you the Bible" yet fail to come up the answer to the question of how much time the Israelites spend worshiping other Gods alongside YHWH ..
This is then followed by asking silly question if Dan is a nick for Daniel - It could be .. but Who cares ? What relevance does this have to the Scholarly consensus that El = Enlil -=-- and that this was the High God of ABraham. and Melchizedek ..
Enlil is referred to as EL for 3000 years of history .. throughout Every nation in the Mesopotamia .. From Egypt through the levant .. around the entire fertile Crescent .. over In Greece .. through Africa to Carthage.
What part of "Everyone knows who EL is" .. is not sinking in. and who cares how many times this God is mentioned.. This has Zero to do with the Scholarly and Theological consensus that EL was the God of Abraham .. and if you can't figure out why YHWH is mentioned 6000 times .. once again you prove that it is you who does not undertand the Bible .. Running around projecting your faiings on to others.
You further prove your "Ignorance" -- your words .. of the Bible by denying of Israels Pagan Past .. and to answer your next relly stupid question .. YES -- the redactors writing after Israel was destroyed blamed the destruction on Israels long history of worshiping other Gods .. Displeasing YHWH
So the answer to your question - affirms the fact that the Israelites of the Bible are Worshiping other Gods most of the time .. a fact of which you are in Wild denial .. demonstrating that you simply don't know the Bible .. Least not the OT .. at all.
Everyone knows that Israel's Pagan Past was are cited by the Biblical Authors as the reason for their downfall . (like every othe Nation who also blamed downfall on displeasing the Gods). How is it that you are completely unaware of this .. and Israel's Pagan past ? How many passages would you like ?
Now I have answered your purile and nonsensical questions .and self contradictory question - "Does Torah Condone this" .. How were you going to answer this question "No" ? and Claim the Torah does condone this .. so that you do not contradict yourself ?
1) The God of Abe and Melchizedek was El. Zedek is the name of the Patron God of Jerusalem -- Priest KIngs of the day most often named themselves after the Patron God of City or the War God. Zedek is the God of Justice and Righteousness .. Melchizedek .. the Canaanite "Prince of Peace"
500 years later when David sacks Jerusalem -- Adoni-Zedek is the name of the King. Rather than install the Levitical Aaronic Priestly Line .. David maintains the already Established Priestly Line of MelchiZedek .. the High Priest Zadok .. the Priest who takes over -- and the Priestly Line of Jesus according to the Bible.
Not my fault -- that Solomon builds Temples to the Child Sacrifice Gods --- Not my fault that if you went into a Temple of YHWH -- prior to Josiah ~600 BC -- you find Asherah Poles and Standing Stones representing the Goddess .. alongside the God YHWH .. an depending on your preference could partake in the services of Male and/or Female Temple Prostitutes - or sacrifice your first born at the High Place out back ?
Sorry Mate --- I did not write the Bible .. so don't demonize the messenger because you don't like what the Bible tells us.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Ummm, I did answer the question. Clearly, honestly, and correctly. You quoted it in your reply:
If it's silly to equate Dan with Daniel, then it's equally silly to equate EL with Enlil. Obviously.
Because the connection of the Hebrew bible's God to Enlil is silly.
No.... Enlil is not Egyptian, Enlil is not Greek. Enlil is not African....
I get it, I get, but do you know what that means?
because El is a generic name for a divine power. This is evident by looking at how often YHVH is used compared to it. If El was the primary name, and was as important as you claim, then it would have been mentioned more than 5 or 6 times.
Still no evidence of a pantheon.
Still no evidence of a pantheon.
The question was: Does the Torah condone polythiesm or does it violently oppose it? Your honest answer would be greatly appreciated.
I have admitted that. Acknowledged that.
The question was: Does the Torah condone polythiesm or does it violently oppose it? Your honest answer would be greatly appreciated.
So you admit that the Torah violently opposes polytheism? Please confirm yes, or no.
No, your misquoting. And you know it. Ail-Elyon. The other nations had El and others. Find 1 example of Abe speaking to "EL", being visited by "EL", having a convo with "EL", having a vision with "EL".
Abe came to the conlusion that all those other so-called gods were garbage. There was only one. And sure, most peopl in the surrounding area called it "EL", but he qualified that. Do you know what a qualification is.
Everone loves ice-cream. I only love chocolate-ice-cream. You're going backwards and trying to tell me... Oh no, oh no, you love ice-cream. You just said it. Ice-cream, Ice-cream, Ice-cream!!! No. I love only Chocolate Ice-cream. Abe and Malci-tzedek were into El-Elyon, and that it different than just plain old El.
No.... Malchi-tzedek does not mean prince of peace. *eye-rolls* Righteous-King.
How many kings were named with "tzedek" in their name? I'm not seeing any: Kings of Israel and Judah - Wikipedia There's no discernable pattern at al that would indicate a "patron diety". Take a look at the names in the first 9 chapters of Chronicles and let me know what you come up with.
Zedek is not a patron god of anywhere.
Adoni-zedek isn't Jewish. That's during the conquest, long before King David. So, that's funny. How well do you know this stuff again?
Malchi-tzedek was not a levite. Zadok WAS a levite. Double-fail. I really could care less about what the Christian bible has to say. Since Zadok was a levite, the rest of what you're saying here is irelevant.
Oh really? Show some proof for that. Temples, plural?
And is that condoned by the Torah or violently opposed?
Does the "Bible" condone polytheism or violently oppose it?
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Ummm, I did answer the question. Clearly, honestly, and correctly. You quoted it in your reply:
View attachment 76922
What a pile of "Ignorance" Your words .. not mine .. but if the shoe fits ..it fits.
You keep asking .. what is condoned by the Torah even though answered previously ... which is a stupid question .. Child Sacrifice .. Obviously as all I need to do is find one example to claim it is condoned --- Solomon obviously condones Child Sacrifice .. building Temples to the child sacrifice Gods ... which you then show your ignorance of the Bible doubly crying out - "Show some proof of Temples .. Plural" --
1 Kings 5 "Solomon worshiped[i] the Sidonian goddess Astarte and the detestable Ammonite god Milcom.[j] 6 Solomon did evil in the Lord’s sight;[k] he did not remain loyal to[l] the Lord, as his father David had. 7 Furthermore,[m] on the hill east of Jerusalem[n] Solomon built a high place[o] for the detestable Moabite god Chemosh[p] and for the detestable Ammonite god Milcom.[q] 8 He built high places for all his foreign wives so they could burn incense and make sacrifices to their gods."
Zedok was not a Levite .. according to modern scholarship --- and was given a levitical lineage later .. but this is getting too complicated to fast for your level .. thus I apologize for bringing it up .. here is a Wiki Summary giving the basics
Some have speculated that as Zadok does not appear in the text of Samuel until after the conquest of Jerusalem, he was actually a Jebusite priest co-opted into the Israelite state religion. Harvard Divinity School Professor Frank Moore Cross refers to this theory as the "Jebusite Hypothesis", criticizes it extensively, but terms it the dominant view among contemporary scholars.[28]
Elsewhere in the Bible, the Jebusites are described in a manner that suggests that they worshipped the same God (El Elyon) as the Israelites, in the case of Melchizedek. Further support for this theory comes from the fact that other Jebusites or residents of pre-Israelite Jerusalem bore names invoking the principle or god Zedek (Tzedek) (see, for example, the names Melchizedek and Adonizedek). Under this theory the Aaronic lineage ascribed to Zadok is a later, anachronistic interpolation."
Zadok - Wikipedia
My apologies for not seeing your answer --- Kudos for the Answer of Zero -- I would have guessed Less than 50 years .. simply on the basis that we can't rule them out .. because we don't know .. Right after leaving egypt for a few years perhaps .. have to go look up how long it took them to build the Golden Calf .. but you could be right . .and they never did stop worshiping other Gods.
So Good answer .. but then what is your problem .. why did you cry out that the Isratlites did not have a Pagan Past ? how brain dead does one need be to be in such complete contradiction or and what kind of pretender are thee ? I am going with the latter .. as your brain seems quite active to me.
"Zedek not the patron God of anywhere" - Was the Patron God of Jerusalem "Salem" in the Bible - when it was a Canaanite city .. which is why Melchi - Zedek's name is what it is .. and Adoni-Zedek some 500 years later prior to David taking over.
What is your problem .. you desperately cry out these falsehoods .. having no idea whether or not what you are saying is True .. more - pretending.
"No, your misquoting. And you know it. Ail-Elyon. The other nations had El and others. Find 1 example of Abe speaking to "EL", being visited by "EL", having a convo with "EL", having a vision with "EL""
What have I Misquoted .. ? Prove your Claim .. as I have cited my sources ... and you are the one "misquoting" speaking falsehood.
Already told you that Melchizedek and Abraham give Sacrifices to EL .. Told you to read the Encyclopedia Britanica "Abraham" where it will give you examples of Abe Speaking to EL -- El Shaddai - when God introduces himself to Abraham for the first time for example ...
Tell you what .. Give me one example of Abe speaking to YHWH -- now this is going to be a laugh and a half .. good place to end -- Can't wait until you cite YHWH speaking to Abe .. or any of his lineage down to Egypt for that matter .. Make it really easy for you... and Tell me who you think the Golden Calf was representing ..
and how about that place of Worship in Northern Israel .. Bet-El -- Bethel .. what does that mean .. and how often does that place show up in the Bible .. ? and tell me .. Why o Why - is Abe worshiping the High God of the Canaanite Pantheon ? EL --- Phonecian/Canaanite version of the Sumerian Enlil --> Elil -- >>>> El .. different nations have different names for the Same God back in the good old days .. has nothing to do with being a nick-name .. so much as it has to do with how language Changes with time to give gods different names .. Innana and Ishtar for example .. but again .. this is far beyond scope -- and does not matter a thin whistle to the point .. just a desperate rabbit hole the rabbit wanted to run down to hide from the reality .. that Abraham was Worshiping some Canaanite High God ..
What part of this fact is having the most trouble sinking in ?
ʼĒl (also 'Il, Ugaritic: ʾīlu; Phoenician: ʾīl;[6] Hebrew: אֵל ʾēl; Syriac: ܐܺܝܠ ʾīyl; Arabic: إل ʾīl or إله ʾilāh; cognate to Akkadian: , romanized: ilu) is a Northwest Semitic word meaning "god" or "deity", or referring (as a proper name) to any one of multiple major ancient Near Eastern deities. A rarer form, 'ila, represents the predicate form in Old Akkadian and in Amorite.[7] The word is derived from the Proto-Semitic *ʔil-, meaning "god".[8]
ʼĒl is listed at the head of many pantheons. In some Canaanite and Ugaritic sources, ʼĒl played a role as father of the gods, of creation, or both.[12]
Other names -- El Elyon, El Shaddai, Adon Illim
Symbol - Bull
El (deity) - Wikipedia
So what is Abe doing worshiping and making sacrifices to the Canaanite High God EL -- and who was it the Israelites were reverting to -- when they made the Golden Calf ? the God who according to you .. they never stopped worshiping ?
and one last one twizzler for the road .. Who did you figure the God of Moses was ? The God of the first Genesis creation story -- or the God of the Second Creation Story --- (be warned in advance --- is a trick question)
"No.... Enlil is not Egyptian, Enlil is not Greek. Enlil is not African"
I didn't claim any of that .. are you pretending again or having big reading comprehension problems ?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
LOL. I mean, Abe's story begins in gen 12 with YHVH speaking to him. But if you need a convo, that's easy, Gen 15.
אחר הדברים האלה היה דבר־יהוה אל־אברם במחזה לאמר אל־תירא אברם אנכי מגן לך שכרך הרבה מאד׃
After these things the word of the יהוה came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward will be great.
ויאמר אברם אדני יהוה מה־תתן־לי ואנכי הולך ערירי ובן־משק ביתי הוא דמשק אליעזר׃
And Abram said, יהוה God, what will you give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
( That's 1 example )
ויאמר אברם הן לי לא נתתה זרע והנה בן־ביתי יורש אתי׃
And Abram said, Behold, to me you have given no seed; and, lo, one born in my house is my heir.
והנה דבר־יהוה אליו לאמר לא יירשך זה כי־אם אשר יצא ממעיך הוא יירשך׃
And, behold, the word of the יהוה came to him, saying, This shall not be your heir; but he who shall come forth from your own bowels shall be your heir.
ויוצא אתו החוצה ויאמר הבט־נא השמימה וספר הכוכבים אם־תוכל לספר אתם ויאמר לו כה יהיה זרעך׃
And he brought him outside, and said, Look now toward heaven, and count the stars, if you are able to count them; and he said to him, So shall your seed be.
והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃
And he believed in יהוה; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
( Abe believes in YHVH, you could consider it a conversion event. After this in Gen 17 and 18 Abe is working with YHVH. Later he makes Eliazer swear to YHVH.... )
ויאמר אליו אני יהוה אשר הוצאתיך מאור כשדים לתת לך את־הארץ הזאת לרשתה׃
And he said to him, I am the יהוה who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.
ויאמר אדני יהוה במה אדע כי אירשנה׃
And he [Abram] said, יהוה God, how shall I know that I shall inherit it?
( That's 2 examples )
ויאמר אליו קחה לי עגלה משלשת ועז משלשת ואיל משלש ותר וגוזל׃
And he said to him, Bring me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
ויקח־לו את־כל־אלה ויבתר אתם בתוך ויתן איש־בתרו לקראת רעהו ואת־הצפר לא בתר׃
And he took to him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each half against the other; but the birds divided he not.
( And Abe makes an offering to YHVH )
So there you go, Sarina.... I mean, Sarnoff.... I mean, Oh geez, all these names are the same to me. Saroomi? Sarjelly-Monster? Sarsar-Binks? That's it, You're name is SarSar-Binks. Right??? The stereotypical bible-critic everybody loves to hate. Even though your actual screenname is Sargonski, SarSar Binks is fine with you right? Since you can't seem to tell the difference in other names. I mean it's the same thing. Basically. According to your logic. LOL.
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Thanks for your best Jar Jar interpretation --- and all the examples of YHWH speaking to Abe and others before his time .. of which there are many examples - of the name YHWH being used ... which does not change the fact that there are also examples of Abe interacting with the Most High God - The Father - Creator .. El Shaddai - El Elyon --
but- the problem with all your YHWH passages .. is that these passages were added to the text -- "redacted" after Josiah -- YHWH just put in for God. The problem is that YHWH himself tells us that he was not known to Abraham by the name YHWH .. nor his kin down to Egypt .. so none of those folks have every heard of any YHWH God ----- and they were not worshiping a "No Name God"
Ouch .. the next question is going to be painful I know but it must be asked .. What then was the name of the God our good friend Abe was Worshiping .. and now you are starting to understand the reason for why modern scholarship is .. what it is... El being the "Most High" God Abe was bowing to .. Abe and our Canaanite Priest King .. along with Jerusalem .. the Phonecians -- and a host of other nations --- the Chief of many Pantheons .. including the Israelite Pantheon .. same as the Canaanite bretheren ..
but -
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So, you ask for examples, get them, and then say, Oh, they were rewritten. So you're not actually talking about the Torah. You're talking about an imaginary Torah.
Now, the verse about not being known by name is simply misunderstood. But skipping the actual meaning...
Think about this for a minute. Why would anyone go through and change the names of God around, and then leave a verse in there that meant the exact opposite?
YHVH says "Abe never knew me by name", right? So why make all those changes to Gen 15? And if you're going through all that work to change the names around, why not just remove that verse from Exodus? Why leave it in there if the idea was to remove the references to the pagan pantheon? Why leave such an obvious contradiction?
I didn't say they were rewritten .. nor not in the Torah. Your making up some imaginary conversation - attributing to me.
What you were told .. was that there are different traditions spliced together in the OT .. for example there is the E-Source "Elohim" and the J source Jahweh source.
When you read "God" = Elohim is from the E source. When you read "Lord" = YHWH .. is from the Jahwey source. Two different traditions written at differnt times .. the E source is thought to have originated from the Northern Kingdom .. as early as 1000 BC .. whereas the J-Source is calling God Yahweh.. written much later ... or from the Priestly source .. written during the exile .
It is called the Documentary Hypothesis .. and while all agree that it was various documents splice together .. there is debate on other things.
but regardless --- the E - Source -- doesn't mention YHWH .. which makes perfect Sense .. because YHWH himself tells us that Abe did not know him by that name. So when you read YHWH talking to Abe --- there is no God that Abe knows .. named YHWH .. so who does Abe think is talking to him .. what is the Name of God that ABe thinks is talking to him...
and the answer turns out to be EL --- Chief God of the Canaanite - Phonician Pantheon -- Solomon was in real good with the Phonicians .. had many wives and concubines from there .. El was real popular in Israel .. Bethel -- El Bet - El El of the house of El .. big shrine .. much worship going on .. Golden Calf Action .. Good times.
Sorry mate .. Abram did not know any YHWH .. did not believe that YHWH was the "Most High" .. YHWH was not head of the Divine Pantheon .. was not El Elyon .. El Olim .. El - Shaddai .. The Father -- Creator ... that was El - the God that Abraham knew .. Elil from his Homeland Ur .. same God known simply as El by the Canaanites - Phonecians .. and numerous others .. Moabites .. Ammonites .. Everyone knows who El is. .. just as everyone in North America knows who Jesus is ... regardless of what your personal religious belief is..
So -- one more time -- El was the God of Abraham .. -- comprende vous ?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The DH has been debunked.
Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia
Basically there is no E source. The whole Torah is an ideological unit. Attempts to split it up and cleanly identify the different sources based on God's names has collapsed.
Based on earlier sources, could be oral story telling, could be earlier written sources. But there is no more DH. The Torah is a unity completed TAQ in the Persian period. TAQ, the latest beginning,
terminus ante quem - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
And you're still making this same mistake equating all names that sound alike as if they are the same. How about this? You keep mentioning "The Father". Can you find those references in the Torah for me please? I don't think they exist. I asked previously, but, I didn't hear back.
Regardless, there's no E source, so that invalidates much of what you're saying about Abe.
Let me know when we can move on to Zadok.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
El is not the same as El-Elyon. Is your screen name the same as Sargoonskinny?
And even if you're right, after Gen 15, Abe was exclusive with YHVH.
Exodus 6:3 is misunderstood.
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The DH has been debunked.
Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Basically there is no E source. The whole Torah is an ideological unit. Attempts to split it up and cleanly identify the different sources based on God's names has collapsed.
View attachment 77005
View attachment 77006
View attachment 77007
Based on earlier sources, could be oral story telling, could be earlier written sources. But there is no more DH. The Torah is a unity completed TAQ in the Persian period. TAQ, the latest beginning,
terminus ante quem - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
en.m.wiktionary.org
And you're still making this same mistake equating all names that sound alike as if they are the same. How about this? You keep mentioning "The Father". Can you find those references in the Torah for me please? I don't think they exist. I asked previously, but, I didn't hear back.
Regardless, there's no E source, so that invalidates much of what you're saying about Abe.
Let me know when we can move on to Zadok.
Holy ridiculous absurdity .. the Doc Hypothesis has not collapsed .. there are aspects of the "Classical" perspective that have been called into question .. but the FACT .. there there are more than one tradition being represented .. from different time periods .. is not questioned by any serious academic .. OK
but your seriously missing the boat -- what part of YHWH stated that Abraham did not know him by that name .. is not sinking in ???
What part of Academic Scholarship .. theological scholorship .. Biblical Archaelology .. and everyone else that matters ... sans the Fundamentalists as mentioned previously .. Understands that El was the God of Abraham...
So .. step 1) Abe does not know the name of YHWH .. What then is the name of the God that ABE thinks he is worshiping ?
Hint- it is not YHWH --- What does Abraham - and Melchizedek - think the name of the God they are worshiping is ?
Here is some help from the Encyclopedia Brittanica
According to the so-called Priestly source (P), the name of Yahweh was revealed only to Moses. It may be concluded that it was probably El whom the patriarchs, including Abraham, knew.
As noted before, in Mesopotamia the patriarchs worshipped “other gods.” On Canaanite soil, they met the Canaanite supreme god, El, and adopted him, but only partially and nominally, bestowing upon him qualities destined to distinguish him and to assure his preeminence over all other gods. He was thus to become El ʿOlam (God the Everlasting One), El ʿElyon (God Most High), El Shaddai (God, the One of the Mountains), and El Roʾi (God of Vision). In short, the god of Abraham possessed duration, transcendence, power, and knowledge. This was not monotheism but monolatry (the worship of one among many gods), with the bases laid for a true universalism. He was a personal god too, with direct relations with the individual, but also a family god and certainly still a tribal god. Here truly was the “God of our fathers,” who in the course of time was to become the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”
Abraham - Genesis, Scholarship, Bible
Abraham - Genesis, Scholarship, Bible: The saga of Abraham unfolds between two landmarks, the exodus from “Ur of the Chaldeans” (Ur Kasdim) of the family, or clan, of Terah and “the purchase of” (or “the burials in”) the cave of Machpelah. Tradition seems particularly firm on this point. The...
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That's not what the verse means.
What is happening in Gen 15 and the rest of the Abe narrative that mentions YHVH?
El-Elyon, and that was before Abe's conversion event in Gen 15. Try reading the story in order?
Where in the Torah is "The Father"?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It is not written here לא הודעתי [My name the Lord] I did not make known to them, but לא נודעתי [by My name, the Lord], was I not known [unto them] — i. e. I was not recognised by them in My attribute of “keeping faith”, by reason of which My name is called ה׳, which denotes that I am certain to substantiate My promise, for, indeed, I made promises to them but did not fulfill them
Rashi on Exodus 6:3.
You see, bible critics ignore Jewish commentators. They don't know the language, and refuse to look to those that do.
It doesn't mean that Abe didn't know the name YHVH. It means that Abe was given a covenant, but YHVH's reputation was not fully known.
I'm not sure where you are from, but here in America there's an expression about someone's reputation, that they make a promise on thier good name.
So here's the verse:
וארא אל־אברהם אל־יצחק ואל־יעקב באל שדי ושמי יהוה לא נודעתי להם׃
And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, באל שדי, but by my name [by my reputation], יהוה was I not known to them.
If you read the verse in context, this makes sense. It's talking about the covenant which is about to be fulfilled. And until the plagues, and Sinai where YHVH says ANOCHI YHVH, YHVH was really not known by anyone. Of course bible critics don't know this, they avoid Rabbis intentionally. In order to really understand this, a person needs to understand what the name YHVH means. And if you recall, one of our first conversations, you had no clue about any of that. and you're still can't get past that El and El-Elyon are different. And El and El shaddai are different. And that's where the DH comes from. Ignorance of the names and what they mean. It's all the same God. Just different names communicating different types of revelation and interaction with the material world.
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I believe it’s “the woman” of Revelation 12:1,2,4-6,14-17….
LOL .. the definition of Reputation .. and what a desperate Appeal to Authority Fallacy == "Listen to Jewish Commentators" coupled with generalization fallacy ..as if one commentator represents all of them .. which is a preposterous falsehood .. in light of the FACT .. that Modern Scholarship --- which includes Jews .. their participation on OT scholarship is included
===== The God of Abraham is EL. No one Knows of any YHWH during Abe's time Leonard .. YHWH tells us this . .. but also history - archeaology .. and the Bible if you understand what it is you are reading .. who is writing it..
What the Bible Does tell us .. is that the "Most High' .. head of the Divine Council .. Chief both the Canaanite and Israelite Pantheon .. was El .. A God Worshiped Extensively in the Northern Kingdom of Israel .. and in the south too but the North made a really big deal out of it... but this is 800 years after Abe was Chosen by "El Shaddai" --- Canaanite Chief God .. God up on High .. whome Abe and a Canaanite Priest King worship and make sacrifices.
and yes .. Abe never knew of any YHWH .. never heard of any of his deeds - "but by my name [by my reputation], יהוה was I not known to them" .. and we know what Name Abe did call his God .. and that was not YHWH. Abram's God is EL .. at least according to Jewish Scholarship ..
Speaking of which .. here is a good one for you from the "Journal of Hebrew Scriptures"
El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8
While YHWH is the speaker, who plays the role of prosecutor of the gods and advocate of the exploited in vv 2–4, El is the speaker, who plays the role of high judge in vv 6–8. It is El who appointed the deities to his council (v 6), and it is he who finally condemns them to death (v 7). Most important, it is El who calls upon YHWH at the end of the Psalm to rule the world in place of the gods, bestowing upon YHWH the inheritances of those gods
This is what referencing scholarship looks like mate --- and not the cut and past silliness you produce - and do notice if you get to reading -- other perspectives are given .. none of which however claim that YHWH is the only God in the Room .. the scholars are quibbling over which God is saying what .. and their relative positions .. so spare the apologetic efforts trying to pretend the Gods in the Room are Humans .. no serious scholar believes this .. Not French .. nor Jewish