Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[dad]

In Minkowski 4 vector everything moves at the same speed in spacetime.
Add speed to the space vector and the time velocity slows.

Show how this applies to unknown time and space?

Because the laws of spacetime preserve causality.

Spacetime is a fishbowl concept and not applicable anywhere else in the universe that we know. If you neither know what space or time out there is like, obviously the concept of spacetime is rendered useless.

Without them that would fail.

Good thing God gave them to us here then right? So? That has nothing to do with time and space out in the unknown.

We see the entire universe operating in a manner that shows the laws are operating universally.

Not an issue here. The issue is time. Prove time exists the same out there?! Remember to do so without using the fishbowl as the reference point to base things on.

yes Voyager is 11 billion miles away and light speed and time are operating just fine.
The entire universe is expanding exactly as predicted using our current laws.

Irrelevant. That is less than a lousy light day away!

prove photons experience no time? I posted an article from a physicist?
https://phys.org/news/2014-05-does-light-experience-time.html

That didn't do it. It regurgitated mistaken notions and leaped to conclusions by faith alone.

we also do experiments with atomic clocks that demonstrate time slowing down exactly as predicted by relativity.

Not an issue. There is known time dilation in OUR fishbowl! Not applicable to deep space except in your religion.

No time dilation is happening in physical processes we see all across the universe. Black holes, neutron stars, fusion inside stars and many other cosmological events require all of the laws of modern physics to be in very precise balance. Otherwise the far regions of the universe would be failing or doing unexplained things.

No one asked about the laws of physics. As for black holes, that is something invented to try to explain what we see happening using earth laws. But that is another thread.

As special relativity predicts people traveling in planes along with the Earths rotation have been measured to age slower by atomic clocks. So god has no say. If they increased their speed they would live even longer. This is already a fact. It doesn't seem longer to the person going fast, it seems longer to people who are not moving at that velocity.

We know relativity applies here. That does nothing to tell us what time in deep space is like!

Objects moving faster and faster gain mass, a fact proven by experiment over and over.

Only experiments in the fishbowl. Irrelevant.

And wrong again. Time slows down with movement according to special relativity. Confirmed countless times with atomic clocks and airplanes for one.

Prove that happens in deep space? This is the science thread, where is your science discussion? So far you have only sourced your personal feelings false science myths?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Show how this applies to unknown time and space?

What do you mean by "unknown time and space"? I already gave you evidence that showed physical constants were the same. This looks as if you are admitting that you are wrong. The burden of proof is upon you if you want to claim a change in the laws of physics. Shifting the burden of proof is an admission that you are wrong.

Spacetime is a fishbowl concept and not applicable anywhere else in the universe that we know. If you neither know what space or time out there is like, obviously the concept of spacetime is rendered useless.
Good thing God gave them to us here then right? So? That has nothing to do with time and space out in the unknown.
Not an issue here. The issue is time. Prove time exists the same out there?! Remember to do so without using the fishbowl as the reference point to base things on.

dad, dad, dad, you know that is not the case. You are the one with the fishbowl belief. Don't accuse others or your sins.

That didn't do it. It regurgitated mistaken notions and leaped to conclusions by faith alone.
Not an issue. There is known time dilation in OUR fishbowl! Not applicable to deep space except in your religion.[/quot]

Oh my, if you cannot support this claim with evidence it looks like you broke the Ninth Commandment again. And since you can't do the math that appears to be a foregone conclusion.

No one asked about the laws of physics. As for black holes, that is something invented to try to explain what we see happening using earth laws. But that is another thread.

What? Your entire belief is based upon a change in the laws of physics. Epic dad fail.

We know relativity applies here. That does nothing to tell us what time in deep space is like!

Not so. But then you refuse to learn the basics of science.

Only experiments in the fishbowl. Irrelevant.

Once again, your sin.

Prove that happens in deep space? This is the science thread, where is your science discussion? So far you have only sourced your personal feelings false science myths?

dad, he may provide evidence, he already has, he will soon find that it is a fruitless task. You need to understand the concept of evidence before you can demand evidence.

 

[joelr]

Except, that is made up nonsense. We are not talking about a change IN nature but a different nature.

And we circle back to your fantasy about a "different nature" that has no evidence, theory or anything other than speculation from fiction.

Or the same as far as science is concerned. In fact, science doesn't know why forces and laws are like they are or where they came from!

Science has theories about some aspects of the laws of physics, based on theories, equations and observation. No one knows why they exist. Some people think their god, Zeus, Krishna, Yahweh, whomever... made them but that's pure fantasy and tells us nothing.

From what I hear it only may be good for around 5 more years. That is not enough time to get back. Nor is 5 years traveling time going to make any real difference in how far the furthest probes have gone. It will still be something like a light day or maybe less.

Yes but the light signals sent show light and time are still operating the same where the craft is.

Name one example? I suspect they believe it was the same and model accordingly.

Name one? If any constants in physics were slightly different we would not exist.
If the strong force were a billionth decimal point off deuterum would not form and stars would not form. This goes on and on. There is a cosmology book called Cosmic Coincidences that explains if the constants of nature were off by even a little the universe would not exist in it's current state and life would be impossible.

The fundamental forces and laws and maybe more.

I can go over every fundamental force from the book and explain why the universe would fail if each one was slightly off. So, huge fail on that one.

You only see the light here.

Yes, we see the light and understand what was happening in the past at the quasar. The light still had to travel here. It's a line of evidence that supports what I'm saying.

Not if whatever entered our space and time had to exist as we see things must exist here.

You are adding an element "the light comes from a different reality/science then it gets to us and just LOOKS like it came from our science....." instead of saying "well it looks like the light we are familiar with so it's probably that".
You're adding some other science, violating Occams razor, adding another science for no apparent reason AND it just happens to look like out reality when we see it?
It's not even a good conspiracy theory. It's like a thing my 7 year old Nephew might ask me about one time until he realized it was silly.

Again, I allow you up to one light day, so that is irrelevant to your billions of years fantasy.
So light speed is the same in space which means time is operating the same in space.

Yes physics seems to be operating the same in the entire universe. Also the universe was once in a small dense state which was physically connected so things being the same makes sense for that reason as well.
Your idea could easily be "well the sky looks like a sky and space but it's really a big force field playing a movie of space and there are giant aliens behind it watching us.
It has no evidence and isn't even interesting to debate. It's just stupid, time wasting and boring.

Who cares? Who asked what laws are like? The issue in far space is space and time. Not laws.

spacetime, time, light speed are all parts of both relativities, quantum field theory and others. Yes, these obey laws.

I need nothing more than the fact science doesn't know.

Even stuff science already knows you don't need because you ignore actual science, ignore proper evidence and ignore common sense. So you don't really need anything except crank ideas.

The issue is whether time is the same. Of course we still have movement, but if time were different, then that movement would not involve the same time as here.

Images of distant objects in the universe operate on the same time scales as here. If time was moving slow at a distant quasar when the light reached us it wouldn't go extra fast to make up for the difference? Again, there is no evidence to think time runs slow somewhere and that spacetime is different? It all started out in a small area.

Doesn't matter one bit. What matters is that we see it in our time and space. So when we see something that takes, say 52 days, that means 52 days in fishbowl time! We do not know what time was involved way way out there.

Processes in space do not take unusually short or long times intervals. Special relativity forbids absolute reference frames as well, like strange areas of "different time". The relativistic theories of space and time are for all spacetime. We see spacetime expand at proper rates all over, distant pulsars are pulsing on time. Nothing in any theory allows for one section of space to have different time (except for relativistic time dilation) and this same this is being said over and over and over and over.

Go find some cosmology papers that give some reason for pockets of "different time". It does not make sense with theories that have already been proven correct over and over and over. You are in the science thread. Provide some science or continue to play the crank.

 

[joelr]

Might as well read the small print in a pack of toilet paper.

Right, keep your head buried in the sand. It's not for you, it's for people interested in facts.

 

[joelr]

Show how this applies to unknown time and space?

What is "unknown time and space" we see time and space operating the same as it does here all around the universe

Spacetime is a fishbowl concept and not applicable anywhere else in the universe that we know. If you neither know what space or time out there is like, obviously the concept of spacetime is rendered useless.

We can see it. Photons from deep space come here, act like photons and show the universe works the same all around. If you think photons arrive here but paint some sort of false picture of the deep universe send a link to your theory and explanations about how that happens and why parts of the universe would be "different". Explain why the photons arrive here and show us a picture that seems to be consistent with our space but really isn't.

Good thing God gave them to us here then right? So? That has nothing to do with time and space out in the unknown.

The rest of the universe needs these laws to work as well. Stars seem to be forming everywhere.

Not an issue here. The issue is time. Prove time exists the same out there?! Remember to do so without using the fishbowl as the reference point to base things on.

If time didn't work out there photons would arrive here and show us a universe where time isn't working. Photons show up with pictures of working stars and galaxies which means things are working out there, especially time. Otherwise we would see a dead universe.

Irrelevant. That is less than a lousy light day away!

The light from a supernova took exactly as long as it should have taken to reach Earth in the middle ages from a start that we now know blew up. So time in that far region of space is working just fine.
Light from pulsars are arriving every second from millions of light years away. If time was slow they would take much longer, possibly never arrive.

That didn't do it. It regurgitated mistaken notions and leaped to conclusions by faith alone.
Not an issue. There is known time dilation in OUR fishbowl! Not applicable to deep space except in your religion.

An article by a physicist explaining how photons experience no time is a valid source of information. It didn't do it for YOU because you are not smart enough or educated enough to read such an article. So of course it didn't do it.
You did ask for evidence. You just can't comprehend it.

No one asked about the laws of physics. As for black holes, that is something invented to try to explain what we see happening using earth laws. But that is another thread.

time and space are part of the laws of physics. I don't care about your crank ideas on black holes.

We know relativity applies here. That does nothing to tell us what time in deep space is like!

Relativity applies to time. It also applies to gravity. Guess what, gravity works in all other galaxies, galaxy clusters, super clusters, neutron stars, in fact it works exactly as predicted.

So relativity works. Time is included in relativity so time works also.

Only experiments in the fishbowl. Irrelevant.

Prove that happens in deep space? This is the science thread, where is your science discussion? So far you have only sourced your personal feelings false science myths?

Well, gravity works, which is part of relativity. All over the universe.
According to our local "time" supernovas should occur in a galaxy one time every 50 years.
Guess what! We see about 1 supernova every 50 years per galaxy so it seems time in all these galaxies is working just like our time works.Yay time.


But again, time is just time, there is no "other time" theory where time is all different. Please post a link to your paper about some alternate time and it's connection to relativity with all the equations.
If not why not take your crank ide to the conspiracy section?

 

[dad]

And we circle back to your fantasy about a "different nature" that has no evidence, theory or anything other than speculation from fiction.

And we circle back to your fantasy about a "same nature in the far past" that has no evidence, theory or anything other than speculation from fiction. It is not real science.

Science has theories about some aspects of the laws of physics, based on theories, equations and observation.

None of them deal in the nature of the far past on earth. Otherwise, you would post it.

No one knows why they exist.

Correction. Science does not know. I do.

Yes but the light signals sent show light and time are still operating the same where the craft is.

Correct, and as I stated, I allow you one light day for the fishbowl! That is where time and space we know exist. Of course, a craft IN this area will obey our rules.

Name one? If any constants in physics were slightly different we would not exist.

Nonsense. We are not talking about one. All!

If the strong force were a billionth decimal point off deuterum would not form and stars would not form.

Stars do not form as you thought and do not have origins as you claim. Relax.

This goes on and on. There is a cosmology book called Cosmic Coincidences that explains if the constants of nature were off by even a little the universe would not exist in it's current state and life would be impossible.

Does the book deal with time out there? If not it is irelleveant. Remamber the nature change was here on earth. Not out there.

I can go over every fundamental force from the book and explain why the universe would fail if each one was slightly off. So, huge fail on that one.

No. You could not.

Yes, we see the light and understand what was happening in the past at the quasar. The light still had to travel here. It's a line of evidence that supports what I'm saying.

You imagine and believe time is the same in all the universe and assign sizes and distances accordingly. Meaningless religion.

You are adding an element "the light comes from a different reality/science then it gets to us and just LOOKS like it came from our science....." instead of saying "well it looks like the light we are familiar with so it's probably that".
You're adding some other science, violating Occams razor, adding another science for no apparent reason AND it just happens to look like out reality when we see it?

False. For the umpteenth time laws are not an issue in far space. The issue is time. You do not see time. It does not look any way. You experience time here as it exists here. Then you have assumed that whatever time anything takes here, must be the same time involved in the far unknown universe. For NO reason.

Also the universe was once in a small dense state which was physically connected so things being the same makes sense for that reason as well.

No. Never. Your beliefs have led you down a godless rabbit hole.

spacetime, time, light speed are all parts of both relativities, quantum field theory and others. Yes, these obey laws.

Spacetime is fishbowl space and time. The light here moves at fishbowl speed. You assumed the universe was also the same. For no reason.

Even stuff science already knows you don't need because you ignore actual science, ignore proper evidence and ignore common sense. So you don't really need anything except crank ideas.

I never ignore any knowledge or science. I do separate your fantasies and beliefs from what is known.

Images of distant objects in the universe operate on the same time scales as here.

Since they are only seen here by the light that came here, how else could they be seen!? Things here must exist in our space and time.

If time was moving slow at a distant quasar when the light reached us it wouldn't go extra fast to make up for the difference?

You are the one that says time moves! Not me. Time exists. If the time that existed there did not represent time as we know it here, then of course you could not gauge whatever time was involved merely by observing what time was involved here!

Again, there is no evidence to think time runs slow somewhere and that spacetime is different? It all started out in a small area.

Utter rubbish. You are in no position to preach about where time started, you don't even know what it is!

Processes in space do not take unusually short or long times intervals.

Not when seen here in our time!

Special relativity forbids absolute reference frames as well, like strange areas of "different time".

A better name for that is fishbowl relativity. The thing is it is only relative to the fishbowl!

The relativistic theories of space and time are for all spacetime.

Spacetime, as you think of it, ends at the fishbowl of the solar system and area.

We see spacetime expand at proper rates all over, distant pulsars are pulsing on time.

You see pulses HERE. Only. Always. No exceptions. Here in our time.

Nothing in any theory allows for one section of space to have different time (except for relativistic time dilation) and this same this is being said over and over and over and over.

Fishbowl science has no theory. So what? It is about as smart as a goldfish in this discussion.

Go find some cosmology papers that give some reason for pockets of "different time".

Why would I ask the blind for info on what seeing is like?

It does not make sense with theories that have already been proven correct over and over and over.

There is no theory of what time is like in far space that has been proven.
This is a science thread so if you claim there is a scientific theory with evidence that tells us what time in the unknown depths of the universe is like, post it.

 

[dad]

What is "unknown time and space" we see time and space operating the same as it does here all around the universe

Unknown means what it means. Man has not been (with probes) even a light day away. Beyond that is still unknown. All light you see from the rest of the universe is seen only here.

We can see it. Photons from deep space come here, act like photons and show the universe works the same all around

When they get here, yes, photons must act a certain way.

. If you think photons arrive here but paint some sort of false picture of the deep universe send a link to your theory and explanations about how that happens and why parts of the universe would be "different". Explain why the photons arrive here and show us a picture that seems to be consistent with our space but really isn't.

Your picture was drawn using the fishbowl. The photons exist in out time when they get here so of course they will act 'normal' here. We just have no idea what would be normal anywhere else!

The rest of the universe needs these laws to work as well. Stars seem to be forming everywhere.

Stars are all of unknown size and distance. Whether they were as big as tennis balls or a hundred times the size of the sun, you could not know. That is because all distances you use are wrong and based on time and space existing the same.

If time didn't work out there photons would arrive here and show us a universe where time isn't working.

False. Time works fine out there if it exists. The issue is not whether things work, but whether time is the same as here.

Photons show up with pictures of working stars and galaxies which means things are working out there, especially time. Otherwise we would see a dead universe.

Actually it means that they, as you pointed out, showed up HERE! Then they start working in our time and space. That does not tell us about what time out there is like!

The light from a supernova took exactly as long as it should have taken to reach Earth in the middle ages from a start that we now know blew up. So time in that far region of space is working just fine.

You claim that was what, some 70 thousand light years away? Now you claim that the light took just the right time to get here?? What, you been sitting there 70 thousand years watching?

Light from pulsars are arriving every second from millions of light years away. If time was slow they would take much longer, possibly never arrive.

Wrong. They are arriving here and then existing here in our space and time. You have assumed that time and space are the same to get that imagined millions of years! There is no other reality to it.

An article by a physicist explaining how photons experience no time is a valid source of information. It didn't do it for YOU because you are not smart enough or educated enough to read such an article. So of course it didn't do it.
You did ask for evidence. You just can't comprehend it.

We do not need a man to tell us what photons experience out where no man has ever gone. Ask that physicist what time is! He could not even tell you that!

time and space are part of the laws of physics. .

Only the time and space in the fishbowl!

Relativity applies to time.

Time in the fishbowl, in a way. But not really even to that. Science does not know what time is. There is a spacetime idea that science uses, but that is not time or what time is. That is how time exists in the fishbowl.

It also applies to gravity. Guess what, gravity works in all other galaxies, galaxy clusters, super clusters, neutron stars, in fact it works exactly as predicted.

Actually, since we do not know masses or sizes or distances to stars, how much gravity is actually at work is not known! Nr is it known what else may exist out there we do not know about that also may be working and producing similar effects!

So relativity works. Time is included in relativity so time works also.

No. I see you do not have a great grasp of relativity.

Well, gravity works, which is part of relativity. All over the universe.
According to our local "time" supernovas should occur in a galaxy one time every 50 years.

Show the reasoning there?

Guess what! We see about 1 supernova every 50 years per galaxy so it seems time in all these galaxies is working just like our time works.Yay time.

Any SN is seen here in our time. So, yay time alright...fishbowl time!

But again, time is just time, there is no "other time" theory where time is all different.

Except you don't know what time is. Why pretend?

Please post a link to your paper about some alternate time and it's connection to relativity with all the equations.

Papers in science are fishbowl papers dealing with fishbowl realities and concepts. Any paper they might try to write dealing with unknown deep space time and space would be a fraud.