Marble
Rolling Marble
this.
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Genital mutilation or religious right?
- Thread starter Godwilling
- Start date
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friends,
Good News for FGM sufferers:
News - Clitoraid.org Restoring a Sense of Pleasure and Dignity
U.S. doctor helps victims of female genital cutting - Health - Women's health - msnbc.com
We as humans are evolving!
Love & rgds
Good News for FGM sufferers:
News - Clitoraid.org Restoring a Sense of Pleasure and Dignity
U.S. doctor helps victims of female genital cutting - Health - Women's health - msnbc.com
We as humans are evolving!
Love & rgds
I've heard complaints of loss of sensitivity.
More & more parents I know are letting the boy remain as he was born. Hygiene problems haven't been a problem after all.
Certainly, it's less drastic than FGM, but it's still a modification which ought to be the decision of the person being modified.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You do realize that in some traditional African cultures, males had grueling and painful rights of passage as well, right? I would be careful about dismissing rites of passage involving pain as misogynistic. It definitely will seem that way from our cultural perspective, but it doesn't hurt to take our cultural glasses off for a moment and look at things with a fresh pair of lenses. Our culture is terrified of pain, and any rituals and rites that involve it we condemn without so much as a second look. My mind is too inquisitive to merely demonize something and stop looking.
OMG. I've never heard of a rite of passage for a male that removes the enjoyment of sex for their lifetime.
If there is such a rite, I can assure you that it's nowhere near as common as FGM - and I would certainly condemn it as well.
NO COMPARISON. At least not a good one.
I like what Hitchens said about it.
[youtube]ikNged5mZiQ[/youtube]
Hitchslap 5: Genital mutilation or circumcision is dispicable - YouTube
[youtube]ikNged5mZiQ[/youtube]
Hitchslap 5: Genital mutilation or circumcision is dispicable - YouTube
Dang! A little over the top, but I share his perspective.
This isn't like a cleft palate or a heart defect.
There's no need to surgically change what is normal & perfectly fine.
Let the child make the decision.
My son has never asked to be "trimmed".
I think a good analogy is ripping someones fingernail off vs. chopping off their whole finger. Yes, one is orders of magnitude worse than the other, but both are needlessly cruel acts.
FGM is a huge deal, and male circumcision is a much smaller deal, but that doesn't mean that circumcision isn't a big deal in its own right. An elephant will look tiny next to a blue whale, but that doesn't mean that elephants aren't big.
I think it is good primarily in exposing the silly and oft times vitriolic hyperbole so common in discussions such as these.
We like to think it's big.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
You do realize that in some traditional African cultures, males had grueling and painful rights of passage as well, right? I would be careful about dismissing rites of passage involving pain as misogynistic. It definitely will seem that way from our cultural perspective, but it doesn't hurt to take our cultural glasses off for a moment and look at things with a fresh pair of lenses. Our culture is terrified of pain, and any rituals and rites that involve it we condemn without so much as a second look. My mind is too inquisitive to merely demonize something and stop looking.
Cultural perspective?
Cultural beliefs are challenged on a daily basis. FGM is hardly considered a rite of passage. It's a form of social control. There's a lot more than the issue of pain involved with all forms of female genital cutting.
There are numerous cultures inside the U.S. The one thing that never would have occurred to me is the avoidance of pain. May be something to do with a younger generation.
Culture is definitely a moving target that evolves through the generations. Rites of passage are (arguably) a type of social control, so I'm not sure how one would make a functional distinction between the two. Consider how the institution of marriage operates: it's a rite of passage, but it also is a social control (for example, some believe it is the only correct context within which to have and raise children). If rites of passage are distinct from social controls, I question how we would go about telling the difference as cultural outsiders given they'd still be related to each other. American culture is very individualistic and places a premium on individual freedoms, so we're going to have a bias towards shouting "unfair social control!" at other cultural customs that we perceive as violating that. I'm not sure what the "real" story is here, given the taboo nature of the topic.
If deliberately and needlessly inflicting pain on a baby doesn't deserve vitriol, then I don't know what would.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
How is male circumcision a big deal? It's not mandatory, first of all. Parents can certainly elect not to have it done. But, it's hardly painful. There are many infants who don't cry or seem bothered by the procedure. So, don't tell me it's cruel. It's a procedure that one heals from rather quickly.
There are actual BENEFITS to having it done. You may not be a fan, and that's totally cool, but to say it's cruel is a stretch. It's SKIN that doesn't really serve a purpose other than covering the penis, unnecessarily. If you want it there, fine.
But, for those who believe religiously or otherwise, that it doesn't need to be there, it's not a cruel procedure to an infant to have it removed, and surprise! Men actually elect, later on in life to have it removed, because they don't like the way it looks. They find it bothersome and feel that it's easier to clean themselves without it.
My ex elected to have it done at 16, because it wasn't done at birth. He was adopted.
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Yes, this speaks to the "needless" aspect that I mentioned earlier.
This depends on all sorts of things, like whether anaesthetic is used and the age at which circumcision occurs. If it's done very early (e.g. 8 days), the foreskin can still be attached to the glans, and the mere act of forcing them apart can do damage and be very painful.
They key words there are "if you want it there". I'm happy with mine; maybe some other guys aren't happy with theirs... if so, fine. But the only opinion that should matter is that of the person attached to the foreskin, and a week-old infant who still hasn't even clued into the idea that his limbs belong to him isn't in a position to make an informed choice in the matter.
Some men also elect to get tattoos. Should we do that to infants, too?
In the case of infant circumcision, it's unnecessary pain inflicted on an infant only to serve the tastes and preferences of the parents. I consider this cruel. It's not the cruelest act in the world, but it is on the spectrum of cruelty.
I never said it wasn't.
Female genital mutilation is barbaric. But my point is that many very nasty things pale in comparison to something like FGM... but this doesn't make them okay.
The fact that FGM is orders of magnitude worse that male circumcision does not make male circumcision a good thing.
Nor does your pretentious hyperbole make it evil.
Raowrrrr!
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Foreskin is gross. And as a parent, I'd have my son circumsized because when breastfeeding, I have no desire to clean breastfeeding, grainy poop out of that extra bit of crevice.
They can still pee. They can still have sex later. They still have a penis. And they can keep themselves cleaner! They're less likely to have yeast infections and as a parent, I don't have to worry about cleaning poop and ick out of extra skin. It's win/win!
Circumcism is done within the first three days here in the states, generally, before Mom and baby leave the hospital.
Fantastic for you. You might feel different if your foreskin wasn't attached. Ever think of that?
Seriously? It's extra skin! Extra skin that can be stinky and harbor grossness.
How many grown men look down at their penises and say...gee, I wish I wasn't circumsized? Or look at pictures of uncircumsized men and have foreskin envy? Give me a freaking break.
I'm delighted that you love your foreskin and I'm not knocking it by any means. But, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I doubt that it lends to sexual experiences but so much and that overall, it amounts to much. It's extra skin. It's not like you're removing a hide or anything. Sheesh.
If you think it's good, I'd be interested to hear why you think so.