Genocide in 1st Samuel 15:2-3

[Kerr]

Fear isn’t a pleasant thing. I don’t advocate it either but if one is of the understanding that if they disobey that they may be punished for it then there would be the fear of the punishment. I just cannot see any human not having fear of the outcome of a punishment unless they just do not fear anything at all as in “fearless” as you said or no conscience whatsoever as to their actions.

There is a difference between regarding fear as something natural and saying that someone should fear .

Good so you agree that one cannot ball all religions and beliefs into one ball and call them bad? It has to do with either the right or wrong understanding of said belief systems that matter? If so I agree completely.

Then we agree on this . Even though I can sometimes find religion, or perhaps religious people, annoying, I do not concider it inheritly bad (thinking of when people for example believes some human attributes and values belong to their faith, I find that rather annoying because as I see it they belong to no one, they just are).

 

[Kerr]

I agree I just can’t apply the word “abuse” to what Elohim does. I see abuse as an earthly attribute.

Lol, to be abuse is abuse, whoever is doing it . When people speak of God they often seem to think he is not responsible for what is bad in the world, but actually responsible for what is good. If he exists, how do you know he is not the one trying to save the kid from the abuse? Does that make sense, or am I just rambling?

 

[Kerr]

Only Elohim can draw the line now. We are outside of the land in which Elohim gave unto the sons of Yisrael and there is no theocracy established in which said laws can be enforced. One will be judged on what he or she knew as to what was right and what is wrong. What one was ignorant of when doing a sin cannot be counted against them. But, those that had an understanding of the differences between right and wrong and chose to follow after that which is wrong will be punished as Elohim deems fit. Those that do nothing but bad in my own understanding are as beast to me.

So if only your deity can draw that line, how can you know which of us who try to live well and good, and be good people, is not over that line?

So maybe with you it was loosing something you liked or time out or whatever. The same feelings of guilt and the fear of such things being imposed on you wouldn’t be that different as I understand.

Yes, but that is not the same thing as physical punishment. That would be like saying a negotiator has the same job as a soldier. Anyway, lets just agree to disagree on that point.

Their parents can and did and part of the punishment was to take their seed as well. Just like with all the first born in Mitsrayim when Moshe tried to convince Pharaoh to let Yah’s people go.

Which is, in my opinion, wrong. Because it is wrong to punish an innocent for the crimes of another.

I see your point and respect it but I understand that having “knowledge” of something is becoming aware of it no matter what it is whether a truth or a lie. One could have little knowledge of something or great knowledge. Knowledge in my understanding, is just simply knowing. If one reads a book and has great knowledge of all that is written within the pages of said book then he might be considered a subject matter expert as to that book. Even if said book was fiction, he would still be knowledgeable of said fictitious book.

Yes, but if he didn´t know if the book was true or not, reading it and knowing what is inside does not give the person in question the knowledge of if the book is fictional or not. So on one level he would gain knowledge of what is inside of the book, but not knowledge of the truth of the book. Those are knowledge on two different levels. Hope I manage to formulate myself in a good way.

 

[gwk230]

There is a difference between regarding fear as something natural and saying that someone should fear.

Now that we agree on that, it is of my understanding that anyone who says that one is to “fear” Yah in the context of “being afraid” then I believe them to be wrong. I myself would only have that kind of fear and be afraid if I disobeyed Yah. As you say, that would be a natural fear of what might occur and the consequences of my act of disobedience.

So if only your deity can draw that line, how can you know which of us who try to live well and good, and be good people, is not over that line?

I don’t. I don’t judge those outside of my Tabernacle. I leave that up to Yah. It is so written………

1Co 5:12 For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Isn't it those who are part of your Tabernacle that you should be judging?
1Co 5:13 Elohim will judge those who are outside. Just expel the evildoer from among yourselves.

Those that are my brothers and sisters at Tabernacle Elohim are those that help me stay in check watching after me as I watch after them to make sure we all do as expected by Elohims word. If we see or have concerns for one we go to them in love to admonish or reprove them that they may change their way back into the way of truth. Those that are outside we have no such contact. We basically do not care what the world does or how they do it. We leave that judgment up to Elohim.

Yes, but that is not the same thing as physical punishment. That would be like saying a negotiator has the same job as a soldier.

No, it is of my understanding as well that it is not the same punishment, but it is a punishment none the less.

Anyway, lets just agree to disagree on that point.

Sure, nada prob.

Which is, in my opinion, wrong. Because it is wrong to punish an innocent for the crimes of another.

And as great as it is to be afforded an opinion I have to give the call to Yah. Being that it is my understanding that Yah is El and that he created all things including me I have to give him all the glory and will not ever put myself above him. As brother Yob did speak as if he put himself above Elohim as much to say that Elohim was wrong, I cannot do that. I believe Yah my Elohim to be right in all that he does. But I respect your opinion.

Oh and for those that might make the statement that “O.k. you won’t mind if I punish your kids for what you did huh?” I would want to just make one thing clear. You’re not Yah my Elohim.

Yes, but if he didn´t know if the book was true or not, reading it and knowing what is inside does not give the person in question the knowledge of if the book is fictional or not. So on one level he would gain knowledge of what is inside of the book, but not knowledge of the truth of the book. Those are knowledge on two different levels. Hope I manage to formulate myself in a good way.

Yes you did. I can only offer that this is the same with all things where many have knowledge of one but not another. One may have a very high IQ but not have a shred of common sense. If the one that read the book had complete knowledge of the book then they could then search out for themselves whether it is truth or fiction. That’s a personal choice to make. But as to the issue of knowledge always dealing with truth I disagree to some degree. Sure one can have false knowledge but one can have knowledge of things that they themselves believe have happened as well as knowledge of things that they themselves believe is going to happen. That is what I call faith based knowledge.

You stated that you have very little knowledge of the bible, or religions for that matter, so I offer to you these verses that show the knowledge that I pursue every breath I take and why.

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of Yah unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of Elohim;

Pro 2:1 My son, if you will receive my words and store my commands inside you,
Pro 2:2 paying attention to wisdom inclining your mind toward understanding
Pro 2:3 yes, if you will call for insight and raise your voice for discernment,
Pro 2:4 if you seek it as you would silver and search for it as for hidden treasure -
Pro 2:5 then you will understand the reverence to Yah and find knowledge of Elohim.
Pro 2:6 For Yah gives wisdom; from his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He stores up common sense for the upright, is a shield to those whose conduct is blameless,
Pro 2:8 in order to guard the courses of justice and preserve the way of those faithful to him.
Pro 2:9 Then you will understand righteousness, justice, fairness and every good path.
Pro 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, knowledge will be enjoyable for you,
Pro 2:11 discretion will watch over you, and discernment will guard you.
Pro 2:12 They will save you from the way of evil and from those who speak deceitfully,
Pro 2:13 who leave the paths of honesty to walk the ways of darkness,
Pro 2:14 who delight in doing evil and take joy in being stubbornly deceitful,
Pro 2:15 from those whose tracks are twisted and whose paths are perverse.
Pro 2:16 They will save you from a woman who is a stranger, from a loose woman with smooth talk,
Pro 2:17 who abandons the ruler she had in her youth and forgets the covenant of her Elohim.
Pro 2:18 Her house is sinking toward death, her paths lead to the dead.
Pro 2:19 None who go to her return; they never regain the path to life.
Pro 2:20 Thus you will walk on the way of good people and keep to the paths of the righteous.
Pro 2:21 For the upright will live in the land, the pure-hearted will remain there;
Pro 2:22 but the wicked will be cut off from the land, the unfaithful rooted out of it.

I hope this gives you a little more insight as to the knowledge I search for by way of Yah’s word.

 

[Kerr]

And as great as it is to be afforded an opinion I have to give the call to Yah. Being that it is my understanding that Yah is El and that he created all things including me I have to give him all the glory and will not ever put myself above him. As brother Yob did speak as if he put himself above Elohim as much to say that Elohim was wrong, I cannot do that. I believe Yah my Elohim to be right in all that he does. But I respect your opinion.

Oh and for those that might make the statement that “O.k. you won’t mind if I punish your kids for what you did huh?” I would want to just make one thing clear. You’re not Yah my Elohim.

Which brings me back to what I think about authority based morality. To me all consious beings are equals, and no one has the authority over right or wrong. But I also respect your opinion.

And personally I know I am not your god. I wouldn´t even want to be your god, lol, because I know I would propobly not be a good god (power corrupts).

Yes you did. I can only offer that this is the same with all things where many have knowledge of one but not another. One may have a very high IQ but not have a shred of common sense. If the one that read the book had complete knowledge of the book then they could then search out for themselves whether it is truth or fiction. That’s a personal choice to make. But as to the issue of knowledge always dealing with truth I disagree to some degree. Sure one can have false knowledge but one can have knowledge of things that they themselves believe have happened as well as knowledge of things that they themselves believe is going to happen. That is what I call faith based knowledge.

That is one way to look at it. Do honestly not know that much about all the layers of different kinds of knowledge, but I am not sure I agree with the concept of faith based knowledge, since faith deals with void of actually knowing something. Anyway, it is an interesting idea anyway.

You stated that you have very little knowledge of the bible, or religions for that matter, so I offer to you these verses that show the knowledge that I pursue every breath I take and why.

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of Yah unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of Elohim;

Pro 2:1 My son, if you will receive my words and store my commands inside you,
Pro 2:2 paying attention to wisdom inclining your mind toward understanding
Pro 2:3 yes, if you will call for insight and raise your voice for discernment,
Pro 2:4 if you seek it as you would silver and search for it as for hidden treasure -
Pro 2:5 then you will understand the reverence to Yah and find knowledge of Elohim.
Pro 2:6 For Yah gives wisdom; from his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He stores up common sense for the upright, is a shield to those whose conduct is blameless,
Pro 2:8 in order to guard the courses of justice and preserve the way of those faithful to him.
Pro 2:9 Then you will understand righteousness, justice, fairness and every good path.
Pro 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart, knowledge will be enjoyable for you,
Pro 2:11 discretion will watch over you, and discernment will guard you.
Pro 2:12 They will save you from the way of evil and from those who speak deceitfully,
Pro 2:13 who leave the paths of honesty to walk the ways of darkness,
Pro 2:14 who delight in doing evil and take joy in being stubbornly deceitful,
Pro 2:15 from those whose tracks are twisted and whose paths are perverse.
Pro 2:16 They will save you from a woman who is a stranger, from a loose woman with smooth talk,
Pro 2:17 who abandons the ruler she had in her youth and forgets the covenant of her Elohim.
Pro 2:18 Her house is sinking toward death, her paths lead to the dead.
Pro 2:19 None who go to her return; they never regain the path to life.
Pro 2:20 Thus you will walk on the way of good people and keep to the paths of the righteous.
Pro 2:21 For the upright will live in the land, the pure-hearted will remain there;
Pro 2:22 but the wicked will be cut off from the land, the unfaithful rooted out of it.

I hope this gives you a little more insight as to the knowledge I search for by way of Yah’s word.

Thanks, I will look into it after a good nights sleep. What can increase my understanding of religious people is just good, even though it is weird to me .

 

[gwk230]

Which brings me back to what I think about authority based morality. To me all consious beings are equals, and no one has the authority over right or wrong. But I also respect your opinion.

Thats kewl.

And personally I know I am not your god. I wouldn´t even want to be your god, lol, because I know I would propobly not be a good god (power corrupts).

It is a whole lot to be responcible over. One scew up and poof.

That is one way to look at it. Do honestly not know that much about all the layers of different kinds of knowledge, but I am not sure I agree with the concept of faith based knowledge, since faith deals with void of actually knowing something. Anyway, it is an interesting idea anyway.

Well lets see. There is the theory of black holes. I'm not sure if anyone has actually seen one except on startrek or whatever. But there are those who have faith in the concept of black holes as they have aquired knowledge of them by reading everything that they could get their hands on. Does this sound right to you?

Thanks, I will look into it after a good nights sleep. What can increase my understanding of religious people is just good, even though it is weird to me .

Great.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Samuel narrative has nothing to do with genocide.

 

[gwk230]

The Samuel narrative has nothing to do with genocide.

Prove it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Prove it.

gwk230, what scholarship have you read on 1 and 2 Samuel? Never mind ...

 

[gwk230]

gwk230, what scholarship have you read on 1 and 2 Samuel? Never mind ...

Funny as your muse is it still doesn't answer my question for you to prove your accusation. I beginning to doubt that you can. :no:

 

[Autodidact]

You are obviously on a computer so let me make this easy for you: JewishEncyclopedia.com - AMALEK, AMALEKITES.

If you are going to comment on historical events, even Biblical events, try and educate yourself first.

Try this as well: Bible: King James Version -- Boolean Searches

This is hysterical. It's obvious that amhair is very well-informed about ANE history. Sandy seems to assume that the Bible is actually accurate, which is humorous, since any time we can verify it we find that it isn't, at least not very.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This is hysterical. It's obvious that amhair is very well-informed about ANE history. Sandy seems to assume that the Bible is actually accurate, which is humorous, since any time we can verify it we find that it isn't, at least not very.

Let's see, we are talking about Biblical history and events. Why is it humurous that one should have an understanding of the Bible to discuss it. Also by their own admission they were not well versed in history. What's really amusing is your inability to follow posts.

 

[Autodidact]

Let's see, we are talking about Biblical history and events. Why is it humurous that one should have an understanding of the Bible to discuss it. Also by their own admission they were not well versed in history. What's really amusing is your inability to follow posts.

What makes you think he's not familiar with the Bible. "Being familiar with" does not mean the same thing as "believing." In addition to being familiar with the Bible, it's always helpful to be familiar with actual history as well. It's obvious that amhair knows more about the history and peoples of the ANE than most people here, including me and you, especially you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Those of us least impaired by irrational memes of any kind are best positioned to understand the workings of healthy brains, poorly programmed brains, and incorrectly programmed brains.

Pompous rubbish. Get over yourself ...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What makes you think he's not familiar with the Bible. "Being familiar with" does not mean the same thing as "believing." In addition to being familiar with the Bible, it's always helpful to be familiar with actual history as well. It's obvious that amhair knows more about the history and peoples of the ANE than most people here, including me and you, especially you.

You ignorance is amusing. Try reading the posts before commenting.

 

[Autodidact]

You ignorance is amusing. Try reading the posts before commenting.

Try supporting your assertions.

 

[LittleNipper]

These verses say "Thus says the Lord of Hosts, "I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. (3) Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey". This story says God told the Israelites to commit genocide against the Amalekites. If you believe the Bible to be the inerrant, infallible word of your god then you would have to believe this story is accurate, that your god DID tell the Israelites to commit genocide against a neighboring ethnic group. If you believe god really did say this how do you reconcile it with the idea of God being a god of justice and love? The Christians I have spoken to about this have said the Amalekites were bad people and needed to be gotten rid of . How do you know they were all bad as a group? How do you know the infants and children deserved to die also? The above verse says to kill the children and infants too. I think the Israelites wanted to get the Amalekites out of their way and they concocted this self serving story of God ordering them to commit genocide. Any thoughts from Christians and Jews?

Just what race are Amalekites? Are they around today? If they are not, who wiped them out? It were not the Israelites ---- when did they listen to GOD?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., who wiped them out? It were not the Israelites ---- when did they listen to GOD?

Ahhh ... a little ignorant antisemitism from a little nipper. How special.

 

[gwk230]

Just what race are Amalekites? Are the around today? If they are not, who wiped them out? It were not the Israelites ---- when did they listen to GOD?

LittleNipper,

Overlook Jayhawker. He is RF’s morale coordinator.

Yisrael did obey the words of Elohim many times but also disobeyed many times.

 

[LittleNipper]

Ahhh ... a little ignorant antisemitism from a little nipper. How special.

Frankly, it is common knowledge that if the Israelites listened to GOD, they would not have Arabs today jumping all over them... That is special. And the reality is that all the groups of the Near East are collectively related. If not through Ishmael then it must be Esau. They are all brothers --- half and whole...