Genocide in 1st Samuel 15:2-3

[Jayhawker Soule]

The downside of being an atheist is that, at last in my case, my understanding of religion is fairly limited.

Why should atheism delimit understanding? I certainly do not believe that to be true in my case.

 

[Kerr]

No, no, no, no. Remember as brother Shaul stated……..

Rom 2:14 For whenever Nations, who have no Torah, do naturally what the Torah requires, then these, even though they don't have Torah, for themselves are Torah!
Rom 2:15 For their lives show that the conduct the Torah dictates is written in their hearts. Their consciences also bear witness to this, for their conflicting thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

The term “beast” I used was meant in a very broad sense of the word. We are as the beast of the field if we do not follow after the will of Yah. Actually we are worse because we do not do as we were created to do. The animals do better than we do at times because who could ever say that the monkey didn’t do as monkey’s do. He does as he is created. Man was created for a purpose and duty. That was to obey Elohim. If we do by nature that which is against Torah then we are literally worse than a beast for a beast will be as it is created, a beast. Do you follow?

Not really. If a beast is someone who does not follow the will of your deity, the term automatically and by definition makes people beasts with little or no regard for their character or person. I could understand if we talked about murderers or rapists, but can really a Bhuddist who lives his life according to the teachings of his religion and has good moral values (from a Buddhist perspective) be a beast? Or an atheist as me, who try to be a good person? None of us actually follow the teachings you follow, or the will of the deity in your religion, but we do not do what a best actually would do... depending on your definition of the term beast.

Of course it does. It’s a terrible and sad thing to see anyone suffer or die but that’s where it ends. There are reasons behind the madness. What was the reason behind the deaths? It is written as much as was known about it and pretty much we see that it was thus commanded unto the son of Yisrael by Elohim to do the act. That is all I require to know that it was enough for Elohim to command such it is enough for me to know that it was right.

Why does it end there?

In my understanding and faith it does. All you can do is either sit back and wait to see if it does come true or start working towards a true path of understanding for the fulfillment of a just reward.

Actually no. Faith does not deal with knowlage. No amount of faith will make me fly (please not that this is not directed against your faith, but is marely an illustration about that faith does not make it so).

I see your point and as to my understanding I agree that this so called christianity, among other sects of understanding, have taken it way beyond the bounds of what really is to be. Even judaism as it is now is but a speck of what was intended at Mt. Sinai. All have added to and taken away so much that nothing almost remains of that true intent. Bits and pieces are left for the few of us that work so diligently to piece back together to show that true light which once wielded its glorious wisdom and knowledge amongst those who loved Yah with all of their minds and all of themselves.

I have rather enjoyed having this discussion with you thus far and hope that if your intentions are as honorable as they seem that you take a look at the information on the website at my sig. There is a wealth of information there as well as the links attached there. Warning though, you will need to be diligent with plenty of time to take in all that is there. Read and listen to all with an open mind and we encourage you to do your own research to search out for yourself what is being taught. Remember, it isn’t church. Enjoy and get back to me. I will be more than happy to answer your questions as to the best of my ability as long as it is as it has been thus far.

Problem with me is that I have a very short attention span, so I may not be able to read much. Can take a look at it, though. Anyway, if you wish to understand my perspective on the universe I would suggest this youtube series:
YouTube - 1 -- History of the Universe Made Easy (Part 1)
It pretty much explains how I view the world (since I view it though science).

 

[Kerr]

Why should atheism delimit understanding? I certainly do not believe that to be true in my case.

Which was why I said that in at last my case it was like that . Did not speak for anyone else. My entire family is atheists, so I have not really had any real contact with religion. Thereby it is hard for me to understand, because it is basically uncharted territory for me.

 

[gwk230]

It is not a matter of understanding, it is a matter of perspective on the roll of the parent. To me that is of a guardian and protector, and as such they cannot do anything, because they would not be doing their job properly. This is partly why the interest of abused children are more important then the interest of their abusing parents. The other part of this reason is that even a parent is under morality.

And as far as abused children here on earth by their earthly parents I agree. I just disagree, no offence, with putting the same standards on one that said standards cannot apply to.

If that is what you believe, so be it. I do not share your faith, even though I respect your right to have it. Never the less, it would have been much better if more people had disobeyed Hitler. Fact is we could need more people to disobey and refuse to participate in crimes and atrocities. We have also evolved a lot faster and now that we challenge ideas rather then having blind faith.

It is my understanding. I also agree with you and the analogy as it pertains to man here on earth but again I would disagree, nothing against you or your understanding, with the same as it would pertain to the obedience to Elohim.

I have yet to see a reason for that. Also note that this is a central aspect of my philosophy. There is a reason for everything.

Yes I agree and believe that there is a reason for everything. I understand the bible to be good and a way to live. There is not a thing within its pages that I do not disagree with when it comes to Yah my Elohim and his word. That being said, the reasons I have are thus written……..

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Yah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This shows me that his understanding is higher than that of man which he btw created from dirt. I also see my purpose in life as simply as ………….

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: reverence Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

This, to me, is enough reasons for what I so stated. Again, nothing against you or your understanding, but it is my understanding and way of life.

And you got a point. Fear is a very strong emotion, I know that very well myself, and I have no idea how I actually would react in a life or death situation. But I prefer to try and believe in myself. Beyond that, fear is not a good basis for faith.

No fear is not a good basis for faith. I rather base my faith on what is written as to what I might expect if I obey Elohims righteous words through his Torah (instruction). It is so stated that if we obey we might obtain eternal life where there be no more death or hunger. What a wonderful thing to look forward to and all that is expected of us to obtain such a thing is to obey what is right and just for all of mankind to live by. The torah is not a bad thing. It is a way of life. It is an instruction manual for us to go by to teach us how to live with love to Yah and for each other. The only fear should be for those who practice disobedience. Not that one might slip up once in a while. That happens and will continue to happen. What matters is one not practice doing wrong. Those who do should have fear by my understanding. They should fear that they will cease to exist and lose their reward of eternal life.

You cannot say that without knowing the stories. It is not a matter of just any stories, it is true stories of extreme abuse. Only someone with a very cold heart can say the parents matter more then the children in these cases. Fortunatly they are rare.

In the case of abuse I agree with you as far as man is of concern. But as for my understanding of Elohim if he so saw fit to punish one severely then I see it as right. I see it as there has to be a reason for it. I just might not see it but there must be a reason. I don’t see Elohim punishing anyone without a reason. There his reasons and we cannot read his mind so I have to go on faith that his reasons are good and right. I have no other explanation. To say that he is wrong and his actions are wrong can be played and toyed with in the same way. How do you know? What proof do you have that they are wrong or not right? One way is a positive and the other a negative. Where it comes to Yah, no offence, I tend to look at the positive side of things.

On a side note. You used the word “fortunately” in your reply. Do you know where that word was so derived? It belongs to giving ones fate into the pagan deities “Fortuna’s” hands. Look her up. She had the wheel of fortune long before the game show on TV.

Not saying that we should end it, maybe find a way to change the direction where we do not say the same things again and again

. Besides, you

LOL. Oh you’re bad. LOL

So basically it is not a matter of actual fear as much as reverence?

Correct

 

[gwk230]

And to explain why I asked the question....

For me the word fear means fear. So when someone tells me about "God fearing men" or whatever, I see people scared of their deity. But if their deity is all that good, loving and all, why would they fear him? Why be scared, if you are of the "right faith" (according to your own beliefs, that is)? I am saying this not to question your faith or beliefs, but to express why I asked the question. I take words quite literally, fear means... fear to me.

That’s why one should read and understand something from what it was first written and the correct context. I agree with you and do as well. I put a great amount of emphasis on the meaning of words. I love looking up their etymology and research them. This is how I came under the understanding that the word fear wasn’t the best choice the redactors could have used when translating from the Hebrew into the Greek and then into the English.

In a way. I have yet questions left before I will understand. The downside of being an atheist is that, at last in my case, my understanding of religion is fairly limited. So I must ask before I can understand.

That is the way of life. One who stops learning and understanding things might as well be dead. Ask away and if it be within my knowledge I will do my best as to my ability to give you a concise and honest answer.

Not really. If a beast is someone who does not follow the will of your deity, the term automatically and by definition makes people beasts with little or no regard for their character or person. I could understand if we talked about murderers or rapists, but can really a Bhuddist who lives his life according to the teachings of his religion and has good moral values (from a Buddhist perspective) be a beast? Or an atheist as me, who try to be a good person? None of us actually follow the teachings you follow, or the will of the deity in your religion, but we do not do what a best actually would do... depending on your definition of the term beast.

No. I believe you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. As Rom 2:14-15 stated if you do what is right which is written in the Torah then you are doing the Torah whether you are one who believes in it or not.

I will tell you this. There will be those of every understanding in the world who will make it into kingdom. Just because your understanding is not the same as mine doesn’t mean that you won’t make it. There will be those who practice satanism, buddhism, islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. that will make it. (if I didn’t mention your believe please forgive me for no offence was ever intended.) All have the ability of doing what is written in the Torah whether it be that which is good or that of bad. No one understanding has the monopoly on such things. Its just it all began in the beginning with those that disobeyed that which was Torah and started the big ball a rolling.

Why does it end there?

Because as much as my flesh cries out for their punishment or demise my understanding is that they disobeyed Elohim and is getting what they deserved in his eyes. You know its kinda like if you had a brother or sister that did something against your parents’ wishes and they got their backside tore up. You hated to see them get it but at the same time you knew they asked for it. You also understood that if you did the same thing that the same or worse might befall you as well.

Actually no. Faith does not deal with knowlage. No amount of faith will make me fly (please not that this is not directed against your faith, but is marely an illustration about that faith does not make it so).

Knowledge in and of itself will not make you fly either. There has to be some sort of work for that to actually happen. Faith in as much as the knowledge of Elohim by way of being exposed to certain stimuli, be it reading the bible or listening to someone teach about him, does began a work that will, with enough due diligence, transform the mind of one into a more perfect being that may obtain enough light to gain acceptance into the kingdom. No offence to you or your understanding, but it is of my understanding that knowledge and faith go hand in hand. Thus as it is written…….

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing (thus gaining the knowledge of), and hearing by the word of Elohim.

Problem with me is that I have a very short attention span, so I may not be able to read much. Can take a look at it, though. Anyway, if you wish to understand my perspective on the universe I would suggest this youtube series:

YouTube - 1 -- History of the Universe Made Easy (Part 1)
It pretty much explains how I view the world (since I view it though science).

Kewl thanks. I’ll give it a look see.

 

[Kerr]

LOL. Oh you’re bad. LOL

Lol, it was about midnight to 3 am when I wrote that... not sure exactly when. Atheist or theist, being tired makes you make mistakes .

 

[gwk230]

Lol, it was about midnight to 3 am when I wrote that... not sure exactly when. Atheist or theist, being tired makes you make mistakes .

LOL, I didn't count it as a mistake but something that was quite funny. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy prefers to hold on to his fantasy that massacring an entire tribe does not meet his personal technical definition of genocide, all the while refusing to answer any questions that might disabuse him of this misconception. Whatever it takes to maintain his religious beliefs, I guess.

Sandy also maintains that the babies were killed not for being Amalekite, but for something horrible that they did before their first birthday. When asked what on earth these little babies could possibly have done to merit capital punishment, he again declines to respond.

Somehow one suspects that were Sandy an Amalekite, he'd see it differently. Like many religionists, Sandy suffers from an inability to sympathize with people from outside his tribe.

This is so cute. You've said you will no longer talk to me. Now you will just talk about me? Your ideas of what is rude are screwed.

 

[Autodidact]

Did somebody say something?

 

[Amhairghine]

I'm not sure if killing your cousins qualifies as genocide. The Amalekites are neither a cultural of political group. It might be possible to loosely define them as a culutral group except they were not the only nomads in the Negev. Perhaps it's closer to fratricide yet I don't think the action falls under either category.

I doubt that the Israelites were ever a distinct ethnic group. Like the Canaanites, Nabateans, Amalekites, and residents of all of the cities savagely attacked in the Old Testament, all of these people were Amorites ethnically. They were a Semitic People who spoke a group of Semitic Languages from a branch of Old Arabian. The so-called Jews in Egypt were mainly Amorites plus some Arabs, Aramaeans, and Assyrians with possible relationship to the mysterious Semitic Hyksos who conquered Egypt.

So the Semites led out of Egypt by Moses are of unknown ethnicity. Some were Amorites the main ethnic core of Palestinians and pre-70 AD Jews. But I suspect that they were really a motly group of Hamites, Nubians, Berbers from the west, and even native Egyptians (Copts) who for some reason found themselves at the bottom of the social order.

Moses himself is of unknown Semitic ethnicity. He may well have been an Egyptian or an Egyptian-Semite mix. He imposed the Monotheistic Religion founded on the one God Aten the Solar Disc. He devised the dogma and mythology from older tales he heard from other groups in Egypt. When he led them out across Sinai, he need to unify them into a new nation of his design. He killed 3000 of them for worshipping a golden calf because he need for them to have oppressive submission to the god Moses invented, JHWY.

Over time they probably did become more or less merged into an Ethnic or cultural group, more cultural than ethnic. They differed little in appearance and perhaps language from the other Amorites or Canaanites whom they conquered.

I further doubt that they really murdered all of the Canaanites. That was just the bragging of savage barbarians of the Bronze Age. More likely they conquerred the cities and intermarried with the women they enslaved. They possibly did destroy city life because like all nomad savages they despised settled agriculturalists. It took centuries for this Ethnic porridge to merge into a cohesive Israelite Nation. They later added the Philistines, and still later added Macedonians and Greeks from the Ptolomaic and Seleucid Kingdom's occupation.

Modern Israel has all of those ethnic inputs plus a large input of North and East European genes giving them the frequent red hair, blue eyes, flat or straight noses, and thinner lips of European admixtures.

The irony is that in propaganda posters and films made in Israel, the good guys are the ones who look the most European while the evil Palestinian terrorists are the ones who look like the Jews who dispersed in the Diaspora after 73 AD.

Amhairghine

 

[Caladan]

I doubt that the Israelites were ever a distinct ethnic group. Like the Canaanites, Nabateans, Amalekites, and residents of all of the cities savagely attacked in the Old Testament, all of these people were Amorites ethnically. They were a Semitic People who spoke a group of Semitic Languages from a branch of Old Arabian. The so-called Jews in Egypt were mainly Amorites plus some Arabs, Aramaeans, and Assyrians with possible relationship to the mysterious Semitic Hyksos who conquered Egypt.

So the Semites led out of Egypt by Moses are of unknown ethnicity. Some were Amorites the main ethnic core of Palestinians and pre-70 AD Jews. But I suspect that they were really a motly group of Hamites, Nubians, Berbers from the west, and even native Egyptians (Copts) who for some reason found themselves at the bottom of the social order.

Moses himself is of unknown Semitic ethnicity. He may well have been an Egyptian or an Egyptian-Semite mix. He imposed the Monotheistic Religion founded on the one God Aten the Solar Disc. He devised the dogma and mythology from older tales he heard from other groups in Egypt. When he led them out across Sinai, he need to unify them into a new nation of his design. He killed 3000 of them for worshipping a golden calf because he need for them to have oppressive submission to the god Moses invented, JHWY.

Over time they probably did become more or less merged into an Ethnic or cultural group, more cultural than ethnic. They differed little in appearance and perhaps language from the other Amorites or Canaanites whom they conquered.

I further doubt that they really murdered all of the Canaanites. That was just the bragging of savage barbarians of the Bronze Age. More likely they conquerred the cities and intermarried with the women they enslaved. They possibly did destroy city life because like all nomad savages they despised settled agriculturalists. It took centuries for this Ethnic porridge to merge into a cohesive Israelite Nation. They later added the Philistines, and still later added Macedonians and Greeks from the Ptolomaic and Seleucid Kingdom's occupation.

Modern Israel has all of those ethnic inputs plus a large input of North and East European genes giving them the frequent red hair, blue eyes, flat or straight noses, and thinner lips of European admixtures.

The irony is that in propaganda posters and films made in Israel, the good guys are the ones who look the most European while the evil Palestinian terrorists are the ones who look like the Jews who dispersed in the Diaspora after 73 AD.

Amhairghine

To paraphrase your signature... alot of speculative imagination in this post.. where does evidence and academic information join with all of the pseudo above?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I doubt that the Israelites were ever a distinct ethnic group. Like the Canaanites, Nabateans, Amalekites...

You need to study your Biblical geneologies a little more thouroughly.

 

[Kerr]

And as far as abused children here on earth by their earthly parents I agree. I just disagree, no offence, with putting the same standards on one that said standards cannot apply to.

No offence taken. I place the same standards on everyone, otherwise they would not be proper standards. Abuse your kids and you should not be a parent, because you are not doing your job and you are hurting the kid in an unacceptable way in the process.

Yes I agree and believe that there is a reason for everything. I understand the bible to be good and a way to live. There is not a thing within its pages that I do not disagree with when it comes to Yah my Elohim and his word. That being said, the reasons I have are thus written……..

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Yah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This shows me that his understanding is higher than that of man which he btw created from dirt. I also see my purpose in life as simply as ………….

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: reverence Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

This, to me, is enough reasons for what I so stated. Again, nothing against you or your understanding, but it is my understanding and way of life.

I don´t think you say anything against my understanding, you are explaining yours. I may disagree with them, for example I do not think a one should rely to much on books (even if they are religious writings, such as the Bible). But your reasons are your reasons, and you are entitled to them... just as I am entitled to think what I want about them .

No fear is not a good basis for faith. I rather base my faith on what is written as to what I might expect if I obey Elohims righteous words through his Torah (instruction). It is so stated that if we obey we might obtain eternal life where there be no more death or hunger. What a wonderful thing to look forward to and all that is expected of us to obtain such a thing is to obey what is right and just for all of mankind to live by. The torah is not a bad thing. It is a way of life. It is an instruction manual for us to go by to teach us how to live with love to Yah and for each other. The only fear should be for those who practice disobedience. Not that one might slip up once in a while. That happens and will continue to happen. What matters is one not practice doing wrong. Those who do should have fear by my understanding. They should fear that they will cease to exist and lose their reward of eternal life.

That would depend on what you believe in. Someone who do not believe in eternal life cannot fear getting rid of it if they do not act morally. Also I am not sure if anyone "should" fear anything... not saying everyone should be fearless, I would be a huge hypocrite if I did, I just do not advocate fear.

And as a note I am not saying that the torah is a bad thing (or a good thing for that matter). I have not read it after all, and I have religious friends that are good people. It is my firm belief that no religion by itself is dangerous or bad, it is a matter of the interpretations of its followers.

In the case of abuse I agree with you as far as man is of concern. But as for my understanding of Elohim if he so saw fit to punish one severely then I see it as right. I see it as there has to be a reason for it. I just might not see it but there must be a reason. I don’t see Elohim punishing anyone without a reason. There his reasons and we cannot read his mind so I have to go on faith that his reasons are good and right. I have no other explanation. To say that he is wrong and his actions are wrong can be played and toyed with in the same way. How do you know? What proof do you have that they are wrong or not right? One way is a positive and the other a negative. Where it comes to Yah, no offence, I tend to look at the positive side of things.

Abuse is never a matter of punishment, especially not in the cases I am thinking of (some people are just bad people, and their children suffer because of that). And to be honest there is no positive thing about abuse.

On a side note. You used the word “fortunately” in your reply. Do you know where that word was so derived? It belongs to giving ones fate into the pagan deities “Fortuna’s” hands. Look her up. She had the wheel of fortune long before the game show on TV.

Lol, I may if I remember.

Correct

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up .

 

[Kerr]

No. I believe you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. As Rom 2:14-15 stated if you do what is right which is written in the Torah then you are doing the Torah whether you are one who believes in it or not.

I will tell you this. There will be those of every understanding in the world who will make it into kingdom. Just because your understanding is not the same as mine doesn’t mean that you won’t make it. There will be those who practice satanism, buddhism, islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. that will make it. (if I didn’t mention your believe please forgive me for no offence was ever intended.) All have the ability of doing what is written in the Torah whether it be that which is good or that of bad. No one understanding has the monopoly on such things. Its just it all began in the beginning with those that disobeyed that which was Torah and started the big ball a rolling.

I know I propobly missunderstood, which is why the first thing I did was to answer your question if I did understand with that I did not really do it .

Basically you mean that if the actions are according to the moral teachings of your religion, they are not the "beast" you speak of? If so, where is the line drawn? The reason I ask is because there are always variations, so to speak. How large can the variations be before we are "beasts"? Or am I on the wrong track?

(And I have no religion to be honest, I am an atheist who believes in science and that everything has a natural explanation. So don´t worry about offending me on that front.)

Because as much as my flesh cries out for their punishment or demise my understanding is that they disobeyed Elohim and is getting what they deserved in his eyes. You know its kinda like if you had a brother or sister that did something against your parents’ wishes and they got their backside tore up. You hated to see them get it but at the same time you knew they asked for it. You also understood that if you did the same thing that the same or worse might befall you as well.

Actually I do not know that, lol. My parents chose a different path, a path that has proven to work without physical punishment. Anyway, we are talking about babies. Babies cannot do anything serious enough to justify murder.

Knowledge in and of itself will not make you fly either. There has to be some sort of work for that to actually happen. Faith in as much as the knowledge of Elohim by way of being exposed to certain stimuli, be it reading the bible or listening to someone teach about him, does began a work that will, with enough due diligence, transform the mind of one into a more perfect being that may obtain enough light to gain acceptance into the kingdom. No offence to you or your understanding, but it is of my understanding that knowledge and faith go hand in hand. Thus as it is written…….

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing (thus gaining the knowledge of), and hearing by the word of Elohim.

Nor does it try. Knowledge has to do with truth, faith has to do with belief. One cannot know that ones deity exists, it is a matter of faith. I can´t know that your deity does not exist either, I have just not seen anything that would make me believe, so I do not believe in him. Not saying I am better then you or something, just explaining why I see a difference.

 

[Amhairghine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerr View Post
The downside of being an atheist is that, at last in my case, my understanding of religion is fairly limited.[/QUOTE]

I am an Atheist but I do not think that it limits my understanding of religion. Atheism is just the term indicating that I have no belief in gods. It is not about what or how I believe. The lack of faith in gods, demons, and supernatural or superstitious things perhaps frees my mind understanding religion than those who are actually religious. Religious memes do alter the way the brain works. Religion is belief in non-rational ideas. It forces the brain's sceptical programmes to get weak in weeding out the irrational or superstitious. Atheists should not be so impaired. Our rational networks can freely analyse information and freely reject what does not make sense.

Why should atheism delimit understanding? I certainly do not believe that to be true in my case.

Your brain's vast and complex analytical programmes mostly left hemispheric but also in parts of the right hemisphere are not polluted by irrational rubbish. Those who are victims of religious meme induction (religious indoctrination), have forced the brain to "look the other way," when rubbish is called faith. It makes the brain accept magical but irrational concepts like gods, demons, and magic/miracles. When this process is repeated over and over, day after day, the brain loses its ability to recognise the irrational, to think logically, to solve complex problems, and to reject the obviously ridiculous. Solving complex problems is weakened by the belief that a god or angel can fix things with magic incantations or prayers, sparing humans from wasting effort thinking. It also lessens our effort to solve the problems with human reason. A brain so altered by the Christian meme has no trouble accepting that they will be raptured up into heaven at the end times.

Their meme altered brain rational circuits put aside the fact that if we are raptured up into the mesosphere, radiation will destroy us without protective astronaut suits. When we go higher into the thermosphere (the aurora layer) the air has too little oxygen to breathe. As we ascend into the exosphere, where the extremely thin atmosphere merges into space, our bodies expand and blow up. That hardly fits with Fundamentalists' believe in Heaven. However, their brains fail to recognise this. The Fundamentalist brain simply appeals to magical fixes that can defy all of the laws of physics. Once in the exosphere the meme infected Christian brain is reduced to fragments of dust and ice unrecognisable as neurons, axons, and synapses.

You and I can understand that magical belief. We know it is rubbish and perhaps funny in a sarcastic way. We know of no evidence for magic to rescue the Raptured Christian not exploding in the exosphere instead of entering a heaven with or without 72 virgins.

We who lack god belief can more clearly understand why primitive Stone Age humans observed strange phenomena such as thunder storms, rivers flowing, earth quakes, springs of water bubbling up from the ground, what made it rain or snow, what made the Sun seem to go across the Earth. Since there was no science, it was perhaps rational speculation that invisible somethings must be causing the phenomena. Humans experienced dreams in which dream memories are synthesised into experiences of leaving their sleeping body and travelling elsewhere and elsewhen. They would see and talk with deceased relatives. They would see monsters, gods, or spirits of the dead, and then come back into their bodies (awaking.) It could lead to postulating a magical invisible soul since nothing else yet could explain the dreams. All humans may experience "Out of Body" events due to decreased blood flow and Oxygen to the watershed areas of the fronto-temporal and hippocampus lobes of the brain. We have mapped them in the Lab at Edinburgh with fMRI and TCMs.

To a person ignorant of modern science, the Out of Body and the Near Death Experiences would seem to verify Stone Age superstitions about spirits and souls. I am not being harshly critical. For the Stone Age hunter these spirit ideas were the best explanation he had... the only explanation until the end of the 20th century.

Many fervent Christian Fundamentalists would be offended by my assessment as a neuroscientist. Nevertheless, I am not doing that. I am saying that the persistence of the religious meme that blocks much rational information and accepts much irrational rubbish is a handicap limiting the understanding of modern religious believers.

It is not easy to dissemble the irrational meme circuits and regrow the rational sceptical circuits that have been neglected for many years. If one does not use his left arm for anything, we cannot rehab his left arm to full use in just a few years. The correct circuitry would need years and intensive trial and retrial of functional muscle movements to overcome the harm of the meme of not using the left arm. Of course, with this meme as well as that of irrational religious memes, the harm may never be entirely fixed.

Those of us least impaired by irrational memes of any kind are best positioned to understand the workings of healthy brains, poorly programmed brains, and incorrectly programmed brains.

Amhairghine

 

[Amhairghine]

You need to study your Biblical geneologies a little more thouroughly.

I can't find the only Bible I have that I bought from a used book store 20 years ago. I do not basic history. The group of people called Jesus in Exodus were taken by Moses to a land we now call Palestine, Jordan, Sinai, Syria, and Phoenicia. We do not know from the Bible just what Jews or Hebrews were. Some were Apiru and may have been a mixed lot of labourers, war captives, immigrants from Sudan and Nubia, Nabataea, Berbers from Libya and the Maghreb, Phoenicians who has settled in what is now Tunisia. They were likely a mixed ethnic group and perhaps had different cultures. What united them was the Power hungry Moses, denied the throne of the Pharoah, saw a power base in these slave labourers who had nothing to loose. Moses' talent was to convert them to his religion as a unifying force. Moses lived during the time of the "heresy" of Amenhotep IV (Akenaten) who believed in a Monotheistic God, Aten, the Sun God.

Moses wrote down the outline of a new religion that showed clear borrow words from Egyptian Religion and Atenism as well as Zoroastrianism. There was no Jewish religion yet. Jews in Mesopotamia followed the local Sumerian and Babylonian gods (from where they got Satan.) These over the Zagros followed Persian and Parthian Iranian, and Hittite gods. It was a real mishmash. Moses was clever in combining them all into a new religion that we now call Judaism. Moses settle the battle between the two different creation myths (Adam and Eve created together, Adam created first and Eve cloned form his rib and several other contradictions). So Moses said "Oye, I will post stories inthe bible, Genesis 1 and contrary Genesis 2).

I am not an anthropologist. I do know that all of the Semites are descended from early Arabs from the Arabian penninsula. Waves included the Babylonians, Assyrians, Amorites (from who the Israelite were a major branch), Phoenicians, Aramaeans, and other smaller waves of Arabs who formed the population of Palestine. When Moses and his barbarian army of relisious fanatics conquerred Palestine/Canaan. They did not likely murder everybody as the Bible suggests. I think that was sadistic barbarian bravado. More likel the conquered and intermaried with the local Amorites subgroups and over time they adopted the Hebrew Dialect and more or less united into a nation. They even included the likely Achaean Greek Philistines into their racial mix, and later Macedonians and Greeks or even Roman colonists added to the genetic hodge podge. When dispersed in 73 AD they were not Jews except in religion and culture. Ethnically they were mongrels from Southwest Asia, Arabia, Eastern Europe, and North Africa. They promoted nationhood more under the Zionist Movement in the hope of forming a Socialist or Marxist State patterned on the Marxist-Leninist Revolution in Russia in 1917. Initially it was the Soviets who were supporters of a Soviet led Jewish invasion of Palestine. Europe was ambivalent. America was dubious but later out of guilt for the Holocaust and the large minority of American Germans (Ike Eisenhower) the US became Israels major and later only ally.

Amhairghine

 

[Amhairghine]

What is an Arab and what is a Jew? Both are considered Semitic. Arabs are not a single ethnic group. If you travel across North Africa you can see the differences. Moroccans, Algerians, Libyans, and Egyptians are mostly Hamitic people with some Semitic Arab admixture. Palestinians are a more complex issue. The basic population of Palestine was Amorite and the area occupied by Canaanites, a Semitic (Amorite or Aramaic) speaking people, Phoenicians another Semitic people, then the Hebrews conquered the Canaanites. Unlike the Bible, I don't think that the Hebrews killed every living Canaanite. That rarely happens. More likely they absorbed them. Israelites became a Hebrew-Canaanite mix. The Philistines came from Achaia probably Indo-European speakers or Proto-Greeks. Once conquered by David they mixed with the Hebrew-Canaanites. Persians occupied the area for a couple more centuries after the Assyrians and Babylonians did.

Then Alexander conquered them. Many intermarried with Greeks and Macedonians. Ptolemaic led Egyptian Hamites ruled for a couple of centuries before being displaced by the Macedonian-Greek Seleucids. Later Armenians conquered the area during the time of the Armenian Empire. Rome conquered and annexed the area. It was inherited by the Byzantines, also called the Eastern Roman Empire ruled from Constantinople. Arabs defeated the Byzantines in 634 AD. Palestine was part of a succession of Arab Caliphates (Umayyad, and Abbasid). Seljuk Turks ruled for a few centuries after the Byzantines. Then the Egyptian Fatimids took southern Palestine. The French and German crusaders left some genes there during their brief Crusader States (1099-1284 AD). Kurds under the great Kurdish warrior Saladin conquered the Seljuk Sultanates in the area. He and his successors ruled an empire called the Ayubbid Sultanate. That mixed in some Kurdish genes. Mamlukes (related to Chechnyans and Abkhazians) took Egypt from the Ayubbids. Baybars the Mamluke Sultan extinguished the dwindling Crusader States. Mamlukes then ruled for a couple centuries, until the Ottoman Turkish conquest.

When the "Muslim Arabs" conquered Palestine, it was already populated in 634 AD. Most of the converts to Islam were Jews who adopted the Arabic Language and Islam. There was no mass immigration of Arabs from sparsely populated Arabia into Palestine. Today's Palestinians are Hebrew, Canaanite, Philistine, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian, Egyptian, Seleucid Macedonian, Greek, Armenian, Arab Seljuk, Crusader, Ayubbid Kurd, Mamluke, and Ottoman Turk. The Palestinians are a mixture of ethnicity.

The Jews who dispersed in 70 AD, many went to Europe. Over almost 2000 years there was some genetic exchange with various Europeans (Spaniards, French, Flemish, Italian, German, Polish, Russian, Rumanian, and Ukrainian. That is why there are so many blonde or red haired, and blue eyed Jews. Those are not Semitic ethnic features. Plus they have the original Jewish ethnicity of 70 AD (Canaanite, Hebrew, Egyptian under Rameses the Great, Philistine, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian, Ptolemaic Egyptian, Seleucid, and Romano-Greek).

So it is an area of the greatest genetic admixture outside of sub-Saharan Africa, or modern America. The real differences of Palestinians and Israelis are mostly cultural and religious not really ethnic. In fact, based on the migratory history of the area, I think the so-called Palestinians have more Israelite genes than the self-proclaimed Israelis who are ethnically more European and Khazar mixed, and “Jewish” mainly in culture/religion. The animosity is largely fuelled by neighbouring Muslim states out of religious bigotry with constant radio and telly propaganda to stir up the Palestinians to violence.

It may be that the conflict is a civil war in the “Holy Land” or “Canaan” or “Israel-Judah” or “Palestine” between Islamicised Jews (aka Palestinians) against culturally Judaised Euro-Berber-Turkish-Persians (aka Israelis).

Again religion rears its ugly head to facilitate human beings killing other human beings, as it has done for centuries.

Amhairghine

 

[gwk230]

That would depend on what you believe in. Someone who do not believe in eternal life cannot fear getting rid of it if they do not act morally. Also I am not sure if anyone "should" fear anything... not saying everyone should be fearless, I would be a huge hypocrite if I did, I just do not advocate fear.

Fear isn’t a pleasant thing. I don’t advocate it either but if one is of the understanding that if they disobey that they may be punished for it then there would be the fear of the punishment. I just cannot see any human not having fear of the outcome of a punishment unless they just do not fear anything at all as in “fearless” as you said or no conscience whatsoever as to their actions.

And as a note I am not saying that the torah is a bad thing (or a good thing for that matter). I have not read it after all, and I have religious friends that are good people. It is my firm belief that no religion by itself is dangerous or bad, it is a matter of the interpretations of its followers.

Good so you agree that one cannot ball all religions and beliefs into one ball and call them bad? It has to do with either the right or wrong understanding of said belief systems that matter? If so I agree completely.

Abuse is never a matter of punishment, especially not in the cases I am thinking of (some people are just bad people, and their children suffer because of that). And to be honest there is no positive thing about abuse.

I agree I just can’t apply the word “abuse” to what Elohim does. I see abuse as an earthly attribute.

Basically you mean that if the actions are according to the moral teachings of your religion, they are not the "beast" you speak of? If so, where is the line drawn? The reason I ask is because there are always variations, so to speak. How large can the variations be before we are "beasts"? Or am I on the wrong track?

Only Elohim can draw the line now. We are outside of the land in which Elohim gave unto the sons of Yisrael and there is no theocracy established in which said laws can be enforced. One will be judged on what he or she knew as to what was right and what is wrong. What one was ignorant of when doing a sin cannot be counted against them. But, those that had an understanding of the differences between right and wrong and chose to follow after that which is wrong will be punished as Elohim deems fit. Those that do nothing but bad in my own understanding are as beast to me.

Actually I do not know that, lol. My parents chose a different path, a path that has proven to work without physical punishment.

So maybe with you it was loosing something you liked or time out or whatever. The same feelings of guilt and the fear of such things being imposed on you wouldn’t be that different as I understand.

Anyway, we are talking about babies. Babies cannot do anything serious enough to justify murder.

Their parents can and did and part of the punishment was to take their seed as well. Just like with all the first born in Mitsrayim when Moshe tried to convince Pharaoh to let Yah’s people go.

Nor does it try. Knowledge has to do with truth, faith has to do with belief. One cannot know that ones deity exists, it is a matter of faith. I can´t know that your deity does not exist either, I have just not seen anything that would make me believe, so I do not believe in him. Not saying I am better then you or something, just explaining why I see a difference.

I see your point and respect it but I understand that having “knowledge” of something is becoming aware of it no matter what it is whether a truth or a lie. One could have little knowledge of something or great knowledge. Knowledge in my understanding, is just simply knowing. If one reads a book and has great knowledge of all that is written within the pages of said book then he might be considered a subject matter expert as to that book. Even if said book was fiction, he would still be knowledgeable of said fictitious book.

 

[Kerr]

I am an Atheist but I do not think that it limits my understanding of religion. Atheism is just the term indicating that I have no belief in gods. It is not about what or how I believe. The lack of faith in gods, demons, and supernatural or superstitious things perhaps frees my mind understanding religion than those who are actually religious. Religious memes do alter the way the brain works. Religion is belief in non-rational ideas. It forces the brain's sceptical programmes to get weak in weeding out the irrational or superstitious. Atheists should not be so impaired. Our rational networks can freely analyse information and freely reject what does not make sense.

You missed my other post where I explained why I felt that way .

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I can't find the only Bible I have that I bought from a used book store 20 years ago. I do not basic history.

You are obviously on a computer so let me make this easy for you: JewishEncyclopedia.com - AMALEK, AMALEKITES.

If you are going to comment on historical events, even Biblical events, try and educate yourself first.

Try this as well: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/bool.html