Genocide in 1st Samuel 15:2-3

[Kerr]

LOL, I was speaking of you in the third person. You claim to hate religion but you come to discuss it here. Its funny to me is all. Your funny to me is all.

That someone hates something does not mean they want to avoid it or not debate it .

 

[gwk230]

And after all, what are a few hundred dead babies here or there?

I cannot set a human standard of morals on that of Elohim. I believe to do so is completely absurd.

I'm not the one advocating genocide here, elohim, you are.

If that be the final decision of the one who created all things as the answer to the problem at hand then so be it. Just as it is the decision of the president to drop the bomb on those that are of a threat. Ones may be considered a threat to the tenents of Elohim and therefore be condemned to death. It is not mine to question why to Elohim but only to obey his commands.

Humor is one attempt to get you to see the absurdity of what you're advocating--that genocide and infanticide are morally defensible. Need I say how abhorrent your morals are?

I never said that I thought genocide and infantcide were morally defensible. Its a hororble thing to occur. My morals are not at question here and if they were I assure you that what you or others think of them is of little concern to me. Just as you have no feeling one way or the other of the way I feel about your beliefs, or the lack there of, I may look at it the same.

 

[gwk230]

Wow! This is one of the most absurd beliefs I've ever heard!
We don't matter. You don't matter. Life does not matter. Nothing matters. Only obeying Elohim matters! If Elohim tells you to kill your family because they are not "pleasing" to his eyes, then gosh darnit, you'd better do it!!


Your religion atcually got you to belive that you are a, how did you put it?, "worm", "dust bunny", and "mud pie"!! Did Elohim tell you this? Or did some guy get up on a stage and continously say this to you? And when you have children, of if you already have children, do you tell them this also? When you hold your newborn baby for the first time do you say "I love you! But that doesnt matter. In fact, you don't matter. Your life doesn't matter to me either. Only obeying Elohim matters. If he tells me to kill you one day I will. Because you are only a worm. A dust bunny. A mud pie."

I pretty much feel the same way about your beliefs.

 

[gwk230]

Just reflecting that as humans we only see the world through our own eyes. That is why I ask such things, because from my perspective those questions are important.

In my understanding, reflecting, is o.k. as long as I don’t try to enter those reflection into what is already firmly founded in the words of Elohim.

Once a creator creates something with self-awareness and a consious mind they have no right to claim it as property. I have yet to see or hear any reason why this is wrong, so why shouldn´t I say so?

It is of my understanding that a “created” hasn’t the authority to question that over the head of the creator. Just because we think or feel something doesn’t automatically make us higher or better than Elohim.

Any higher authority does not matter in this question.

How so?

What is life without freedom?

That is completely up to what your definition of freedom is.

What gives the authority in question the right to remove it?

My understanding is that authority does not need yours, or anyone’s, approval to do with whatever which he created. No matter what anyone thinks or feels about it.

That is what happens if you clone someone . You create someone. That does not give you authority to dictate their life.

Who said?

That someone hates something does not mean they want to avoid it or not debate it .

I didn’t say they did or didn’t. I merely thought it funny that someone who claims such would be involved with a religion forum. It may not be funny to anyone else and that is fine but it was to me.

 

[Kerr]

In my understanding, reflecting, is o.k. as long as I don’t try to enter those reflection into what is already firmly founded in the words of Elohim.

One should always reflect.

How so?

Because there are more factors then who has the authority and who does not.

That is completely up to what your definition of freedom is.

My definition of freedom involves being free from being owned by anyone but yourself.

My understanding isthat authority does not need yours, or anyone’s, approval to do with whatever which he created. No matter what anyone thinks or feels about it.

Even if I can´t do anything against if some deity decides to burn the world to ashes, I do not give him the authority to do so. There is a difference between power and authority. Authority is a concept, and as a concept it has no real power except what we give it. That someone can burn tthe world to ashes and decides to do that is not about authority any more then a bully has the authority to bully the victim (note that I am not saying your god is a bully here, it was just the best idea I could come up with to illustrate what I mean).

Besides, as I may have mentioned before, one should question authority.

Who said?

I did. To illustrate what I mean in a blunt way, parents do not have the right to molest their children, even if they created them.

 

[gwk230]

One should always reflect.

In my understanding I haven’t a problem with reflecting as long as it is done within the scope that I have already offered.

Because there are more factors then who has the authority and who does not.

Again, how so?

My definition of freedom involves being free from being owned by anyone but yourself.

Millions of teenagers feel the same way about getting out from under the rules of their parents house where their parents have the authority over them to make said rules whether the teenagers grant or allow them said authority. The rules are in place for a reason and either the teenagers abide by them or in many cases they are kicked out of the house. One might not like the outcome but there is little one can do about it. It is how it is. No one is promised anywhere that they have the right to do whatever they want whenever they want. There are guidelines to everything in life. Just because one chooses not to follow them doesn’t make them any less existent.

Even if I can´t do anything against if some deity decides to burn the world to ashes, I do not give him the authority to do so. There is a difference between power and authority. Authority is a concept, and as a concept it has no real power except what we give it. That someone can burn tthe world to ashes and decides to do that is not about authority any more then a bully has the authority to bully the victim (note that I am not saying your god is a bully here, it was just the best idea I could come up with to illustrate what I mean).

Besides, as I may have mentioned before, one should question authority.

As I have just explained with the teenager analogy. It is of my understanding that what you think or feel doesn’t matter. Whether you give way to the authority or not is of no consequence. The world will still be just as burned to ashes and you will still be just as dead. All of what you thought or felt is burnt up with it. If only one would obey and do as according to the words of Yah then all this would be of no debate.

I did. To illustrate what I mean in a blunt way, parents do not have the right to molest their children, even if they created them.

But there lies an authority over the parents that prevents them from doing so. It’s called the law of the land. They may do the act but will have to pay the consequence of their actions. It is my understanding that just as those who disobey the words of Elohim, they will in fact suffer consequences as well. Maybe even unto death.

 

[Kerr]

In my understanding I haven’t a problem with reflecting as long as it is done within the scope that I have already offered.

Why not outside of it?

Again, how so?

Rights for one. As an example, I do not have the right to treat anyone as property, no matter my power or authority, because I am against slavery.

Beyond that, one can always ask why. In this case the most fundamental reason is that we have very different values and concepts about morality and so on, and as such I doubt we can agree on this. Does not mean anyone of us is more intelligent then the other, it means we look at the world from different perspectives.

Millions of teenagers feel the same way about getting out from under the rules of their parents house where their parents have the authority over them to make said rules whether the teenagers grant or allow them said authority. The rules are in place for a reason and either the teenagers abide by them or in many cases they are kicked out of the house. One might not like the outcome but there is little one can do about it. It is how it is. No one is promised anywhere that they have the right to do whatever they want whenever they want. There are guidelines to everything in life. Just because one chooses not to follow them doesn’t make them any less existent.

Same could be said about peoples wish to end tyranny anywhere in the world. Besides, no matter if you are a teenager or not you own your own life. There is a difference between parenthood (which is more like a guardian then an owner, and as such the parent is still bound by concepts of right and wrong) and slavery after all.

Besides, I remember a movie. The man in the family was a jerk. The girl took in secret boxing lessons. When he found out he tried to hit her. She knocked him down. As far as I am concerned, she did right. Of course it was just a movie, but it illustrates my point.

As I have just explained with the teenager analogy. It is of my understanding that what you think or feel doesn’t matter. Whether you give way to the authority or not is of no consequence. The world will still be just as burned to ashes and you will still be just as dead. All of what you thought or felt is burnt up with it. If only one would obey and do as according to the words of Yah then all this would be of no debate.

Just as it doesn´t matter what you think if I nuked you, you would still die. Would that make me right? Absolutely not!

(Note this is not a threat or anything actually directed as you as a person, just another illustration.)

But there lies an authority over the parents that prevents them from doing so. It’s called the law of the land. They may do the act but will have to pay the consequence of their actions. It is my understanding that just as those who disobey the words of Elohim, they will in fact suffer consequences as well. Maybe even unto death.

I was talking morally, not legally. Morally speaking, it does not matter if there is an authority above the parents or not, they are still wrong. Morally speaking, it does not matter if the parent is a man or deity, they would still be wrong.

 

[gwk230]

Why not outside of it?

　
Because it is “my” understanding as to how I was so taught pertaining to Yah’s word and anything outside of that wouldn’t be.
　

Rights for one. As an example, I do not have the right to treat anyone as property, no matter my power or authority, because I am against slavery.

　
In my understanding this is only your choice as to what you will accept or not. This has nothing to do with the authority that Elohim has over that which is created. He chose to put forth rules and guidelines for his created to follow with consequences in the form of judgments for those who do not. You choose not to do the same. So?
　

Beyond that, one can always ask why. In this case the most fundamental reason is that we have very different values and concepts about morality and so on, and as such I doubt we can agree on this. Does not mean anyone of us is more intelligent then the other, it means we look at the world from different perspectives.

　
Absolutely.
　

Same could be said about peoples wish to end tyranny anywhere in the world. Besides, no matter if you are a teenager or not you own your own life. There is a difference between parenthood (which is more like a guardian then an owner, and as such the parent is still bound by concepts of right and wrong) and slavery after all.

　
In my understanding you think you own your own life but there is nothing made that Yah is beneath or equal to. He owns everything that is up to and including you and me.
　

Besides, I remember a movie. The man in the family was a jerk. The girl took in secret boxing lessons. When he found out he tried to hit her. She knocked him down. As far as I am concerned, she did right. Of course it was just a movie, but it illustrates my point.

　
I fell to see where this has anything to do with any point concerning the OP. Maybe you can further enlighten me?
　

Just as it doesn´t matter what you think if I nuked you, you would still die. Would that make me right? Absolutely not!

　
Who establishes what is right and what is wrong? You? Maybe for yourself but it is my understanding that what you might think and feel as right or wrong maybe the complete opposite to someone else. Elohim, on the other hand, is always right. One can say otherwise but what does that matter. Can they stop Elohim? Can they force Yah to do other than that which he sets out to do? Absurd.
　

(Note this is not a threat or anything actually directed as you as a person, just another illustration.)

　
LOL. I could see many that would take it that way but to me this is as funny as the warning on the McDonalds coffee cup.
　

I was talking morally, not legally. Morally speaking, it does not matter if there is an authority above the parents or not, they are still wrong. Morally speaking, it does not matter if the parent is a man or deity, they would still be wrong.

　
It is my understanding that morality, again, is the thoughts and feelings, if not downright whims, of man. Human morality cannot be imposed on Yah as he sets the standards as to what is and isn’t. He is not bound by rules as we are. He does as he chooses without consequence. How can one punish one with all power? Again, absurd.
　

 

[Autodidact]

Yes I do and no, I am not confused at all.


LOL, I was speaking of you in the third person. You claim to hate religion but you come to discuss it here. Its funny to me is all. Your funny to me is all.

You never discuss things you hate?

"Claims" may be that to you but to me and many others it only means that you made the statement of something you either seen, did or believe etc. etc. etc.

And what exactly do you think I stated that I saw did or believed that I did not?

 

[Autodidact]

I cannot set a human standard of morals on that of Elohim. I believe to do so is completely absurd.

And what about the people who believe this stuff, and so kill other people, can you set a human standard of morals on them?

If that be the final decision of the one who created all things as the answer to the problem at hand then so be it. Just as it is the decision of the president to drop the bomb on those that are of a threat. Ones may be considered a threat to the tenents of Elohim and therefore be condemned to death. It is not mine to question why to Elohim but only to obey his commands.

Did I mention that your morals are not only abhorrent, but dangerous to the community as a whole?

I never said that I thought genocide and infantcide were morally defensible. Its a hororble thing to occur.

Oh, O.K. So when the Israelites committed genocide and infanticide, based on their belief that God commanded them to, were their actions morally defensible?

My morals are not at question here and if they were I assure you that what you or others think of them is of little concern to me. Just as you have no feeling one way or the other of the way I feel about your beliefs, or the lack there of, I may look at it the same.

Well, my beliefs don't pose any threat to you, your children, or anyone else. Yours do. I'm not advocating murdering people in the name of the lord, as you are.

 

[Autodidact]

Millions of teenagers feel the same way about getting out from under the rules of their parents house where their parents have the authority over them to make said rules whether the teenagers grant or allow them said authority. The rules are in place for a reason and either the teenagers abide by them or in many cases they are kicked out of the house. One might not like the outcome but there is little one can do about it. It is how it is. No one is promised anywhere that they have the right to do whatever they want whenever they want. There are guidelines to everything in life. Just because one chooses not to follow them doesn’t make them any less existent.

Of course, their parents don't kill them for breaking the rules. Furthermore, the rules don't include commandments to slaughter other people.

btw, it also doesn't make them more existent. So please, demonstrate to us that your God exists, that you know what He wants, that He has made certain rules, and that you know what those rules are. Go for it.

But there lies an authority over the parents that prevents them from doing so. It’s called the law of the land. They may do the act but will have to pay the consequence of their actions. It is my understanding that just as those who disobey the words of Elohim, they will in fact suffer consequences as well. Maybe even unto death.

Nowadays we don't allow parents to impose consequences unto death.

btw, what exactly did the Amalekite babies do to deserve capital punishment?

 

[Autodidact]

　
Because it is “my” understanding as to how I was so taught pertaining to Yah’s word and anything outside of that wouldn’t be.

Do you believe everything you're taught?　

　

In my understanding this is only your choice as to what you will accept or not. This has nothing to do with the authority that Elohim has over that which is created. He chose to put forth rules and guidelines for his created to follow with consequences in the form of judgments for those who do not. You choose not to do the same. So?

Please demonstrate that any of this is true.
　

In my understanding you think you own your own life but there is nothing made that Yah is beneath or equal to. He owns everything that is up to and including you and me.

Unless he doesn't.

　
Who establishes what is right and what is wrong? You? Maybe for yourself but it is my understanding that what you might think and feel as right or wrong maybe the complete opposite to someone else. Elohim, on the other hand, is always right. One can say otherwise but what does that matter. Can they stop Elohim? Can they force Yah to do other than that which he sets out to do? Absurd.

Yes, I understand. The most abhorrent, brutal, unjust, violent actions are right, if you believe your mythical God commands them. You would make an excellent suicide bomber.
　

It is my understanding that morality, again, is the thoughts and feelings, if not downright whims, of man. Human morality cannot be imposed on Yah as he sets the standards as to what is and isn’t. He is not bound by rules as we are. He does as he chooses without consequence. How can one punish one with all power? Again, absurd.

　

Of course, you can't punish something that doesn't exist. Fortunately, you can punish his crazy, violent, murderous followers. Or don't you think society should have the right to punish people who murder in the name of God?

 

[Kerr]

Because it is “my” understanding as to how I was so taught pertaining to Yah’s word and anything outside of that wouldn’t be.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree here.

In my understanding this is only your choice as to what you will accept or not. This has nothing to do with the authority that Elohim has over that which is created. He chose to put forth rules and guidelines for his created to follow with consequences in the form of judgments for those who do not. You choose not to do the same. So?

I am like you in that regard, we all choose what to accept and not. Rights are, in my judgement, more important then any authority. So I will not accept when someone goes against them, even if they have more authority then me or is given the authority to go against those rights for some reason.

I fell to see where this has anything to do with any point concerning the OP. Maybe you can further enlighten me?

It does not really have to do with the OP, it just tells what I think about authority based morality.

LOL. I could see many that would take it that way but to me this is as funny as the warning on the McDonalds coffee cup.

I happen to be neurotic . Better safe then sorry.

It is my understanding that morality, again, is the thoughts and feelings, if not downright whims, of man. Human morality cannot be imposed on Yah as he sets the standards as to what is and isn’t. He is not bound by rules as we are. He does as he chooses without consequence. How can one punish one with all power? Again, absurd.

My understanding is that power does not give right. Nor does it makes someone less wrong if they do something wrong but has the power or authority to be able to escape ones punishment. As someone else said, morality is not about what is, it is about what should be.

In my understanding you think you own your own life but there is nothing made that Yah is beneath or equal to. He owns everything that is up to and including you and me.

In that case he better be ready for a fight, because I will fight to own myself .

 

[averageJOE]

I pretty much feel the same way about your beliefs.

Fine, I can live with that.
However, the questions still stand:

Or do you not want to answer?

 

[gwk230]

You never discuss things you hate?

　
Of course I do, even though it isn’t my favorite thing to discuss. That’s what is so funny to me. But, again, what’s funny to me may not be so to anyone else.
　

And what exactly do you think I stated that I saw did or believed that I did not?

　
Think you stated? Ummmm. It is a well foregone conclusion of what you stated when you so claimed to “hate religion” and I in no way insinuated, or otherwise, any difference in that claim. Any assumptions to the latter is regretfully yours.
　

And what about the people who believe this stuff, and so kill other people, can you set a human standard of morals on them?

　
Can I? Yes but I choose not to. I rather impose that set of standards as set forth by the Torah on those like me which have accepted such. If they are not adhering to the Torah exactly then they are outside of it and are to be punished by the judgments so set for in it. One cannot just go out and kill another. That’s murder.
　

Did I mention that your morals are not only abhorrent, but dangerous to the community as a whole?

　
It is only because you haven’t a clue about my understanding and do not care to understand it because you have already made up your “own” mind as to your own thoughts and feelings about it and only want to verbally attack it and me. Ignorance is bliss.
　

Oh, O.K. So when the Israelites committed genocide and infanticide, based on their belief that God commanded them to, were their actions morally defensible?

　
Their belief? Ummmmmm. I would say that after what was written about the ground opening up and taking those that disobeyed Elohims word was enough to know that Elohim did in fact speak through Moshe which was so chosen for the task. So when Moshe said that Elohim had told them to do this there was no questioning of where it came from. I would say that their belief was well established by those things that had already occurred. Morally defensible? By whose standards? It’s by Elohims standards which only matter.
　

Well, my beliefs don't pose any threat to you, your children, or anyone else. Yours do. I'm not advocating murdering people in the name of the lord, as you are.

　
That’s untrue. I see your beliefs as threats to the whole of the entire universe but you have nothing whatsoever to fear from me or those like me. It is Yah that everyone will ultimately have to answer to.
　

Of course, their parents don't kill them for breaking the rules. Furthermore, the rules don't include commandments to slaughter other people.

　
In the Torah……
　
Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
　
Of course this is not done today without the correct setting as directed within the bounds and rules of the Torah.
　

btw, it also doesn't make them more existent.

　
Yes, it does. They are so communicated by the words so spoken that impose them as well as what we have written. They do in fact exist. Just because you choose not to accept that is completely besides the point. In other words, it don’t matter.
　

So please, demonstrate to us that your God exists, that you know what He wants, that He has made certain rules, and that you know what those rules are. Go for it.

　
I haven’t a need to prove to you a thing. You have yet to disprove anything. In either case it would just be useless wagging of tongues. So why pursue such endless agony?
　

Nowadays we don't allow parents to impose consequences unto death.

　
Within Torah, where did it allow parents to impose such?
　

btw, what exactly did the Amalekite babies do to deserve capital punishment?

　
I don’t care. It doesn’t matter what they may have or may have not done. It is enough for me that Elohim felt they deserved this or that.
　

Do you believe everything you're taught?

　
If it is so founded within the Torah and the prophets, Yes.
　

Please demonstrate that any of this is true.

　
Again, I have no need to suffer your ignorance on the subject of my understanding.
　

Unless he doesn't.

　
We shall soon see.
　

Yes, I understand. The most abhorrent, brutal, unjust, violent actions are right, if you believe your mythical God commands them. You would make an excellent suicide bomber.

　
LOL. If you say so. Your so funny. Its funny when others attack what they have no clue of.
　

Of course, you can't punish something that doesn't exist. Fortunately, you can punish his crazy, violent, murderous followers. Or don't you think society should have the right to punish people who murder in the name of God?

　
Society does as it chooses as to the whims of man. It is of the world. My understanding is not of the world. I have no stake in what the world does or doesn’t do. I am not a lover of the world but only love Yah with all my mind and being.

 

[gwk230]

I am like you in that regard, we all choose what to accept and not. Rights are, in my judgement, more important then any authority. So I will not accept when someone goes against them, even if they have more authority then me or is given the authority to go against those rights for some reason.

I agree with this in a militia sort of way as to the rights that we have before other men but when it comes to what the creator of all things have granted unto us I see that he can just as easily take them away if we do not follow his set of standards which allowed us to enjoy such things to begin with. Just as a parent punishes a child and takes away something the child likes for their disobedience so Elohim will do for our disobedience. If it is something he so deems unto death then guess what. We going to die.

It does not really have to do with the OP, it just tells what I think about authority based morality.

And I have to go by that of Elohim and not some manmade dreamed up though or feeling.

I happen to be neurotic . Better safe then sorry.

LOL. I totally understand.

My understanding is that power does not give right. Nor does it makes someone less wrong if they do something wrong but has the power or authority to be able to escape ones punishment. As someone else said, morality is not about what is, it is about what should be.

My understanding is that whatever amount of morality we express has to abide by that which we have written within the words of Elohim and no more and no less. That being said, it is also of my understanding that we cannot impose those same set of guidelines on the one who created them. One verse just keeps climbing to the top with our discussion here.

Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

In that case he better be ready for a fight, because I will fight to own myself .

I don’t believe it’s going to matter what you do or how hard you fight. If ones name is no longer in the book of life then it’s pretty definite as to what happens next.

 

[gwk230]

However, the questions still stand:
Or do you not want to answer?

　
Oh, sorry. I didn’t think you were serious.
　
Well,
　

Your religion atcually got you to belive that you are a, how did you put it?, "worm", "dust bunny", and "mud pie"!! Did Elohim tell you this? Or did some guy get up on a stage and continously say this to you?

　
The bible pretty much explains that we are beast without Yah. I like the worm analogy because of the saying you are what you eat. Worms will eat our dead bodies and therefore become us in a since therefore we are worms. Get it. LOL. As far as dust bunnies and mud pie’s, it is stated ashes to ashes and dust to dust it is what we came from and it is what we will return to. It didn’t take any man to show what is plainly written in scripture.
　

And when you have children, of if you already have children, do you tell them this also?

　
Every chance I get. :yes:
　

When you hold your newborn baby for the first time do you say "I love you! But that doesnt matter. In fact, you don't matter. Your life doesn't matter to me either.

　
Of course not. That’s idiotic. I love them and it does matter to me but in the end we all have to answer for our own actions before Yah. What is extremely important is the whole duty of man.
　

Only obeying Elohim matters.

　
Yep!
　
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For Elohim shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
　

If he tells me to kill you one day I will. Because you are only a worm. A dust bunny. A mud pie."

　
Now why would you tell someone something like that? Wake up man!!!!!!! You would loose all the elements of surprise.

 

[Autodidact]

And what about the people who believe this stuff, and so kill other people, can you set a human standard of morals on them?

　

Can I? Yes but I choose not to.

You could determine whether slaughtering babies is right or wrong, but you just can't be bothered?

It's a good thing we have people in our society who do choose to.

 

[Autodidact]

　
Can I? Yes but I choose not to. I rather impose that set of standards as set forth by the Torah on those like me which have accepted such. If they are not adhering to the Torah exactly then they are outside of it and are to be punished by the judgments so set for in it. One cannot just go out and kill another. That’s murder.

Unless God commands it, right?
　

It is only because you haven’t a clue about my understanding and do not care to understand it because you have already made up your “own” mind as to your own thoughts and feelings about it and only want to verbally attack it and me. Ignorance is bliss.

Nope. I'm responding directly to what you stated, nothing else.
　

Their belief? Ummmmmm. I would say that after what was written about the ground opening up and taking those that disobeyed Elohims word was enough to know that Elohim did in fact speak through Moshe which was so chosen for the task. So when Moshe said that Elohim had told them to do this there was no questioning of where it came from. I would say that their belief was well established by those things that had already occurred. Morally defensible? By whose standards? It’s by Elohims standards which only matter.

By your standards, gwk, whom do you think? Or are you going to bring Elohim here so I can talk to Him? By YOUR standards, when according to your ridiculous collection of religious mythology, your God commanded His followers to stab Amalekite babies to death, was it morally right, or wrong?
　

That’s untrue. I see your beliefs as threats to the whole of the entire universe but you have nothing whatsoever to fear from me or those like me. It is Yah that everyone will ultimately have to answer to.

Sorry, the fact that you believe it doesn't make it so. After all, you've shown us that you believe a host of silly things.

You, on the other hand, are advocating a moral system in which, if you decide that your God has commanded you to annihilate an entire people, it would be moral for you to do so. That's objectively dangerous.

　
In the Torah……
　
Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
　
Of course this is not done today without the correct setting as directed within the bounds and rules of the Torah.

I see. Under your barbaric and primitive belief system, it would be correct, permissible and actually commanded for a parent to kill a disobedient child, and you endorse that system, but unfortunately society won't let you get away with it, so you'll refrain. btw, have I mentioned how absolutely disgusting your moral system is?
　

Yes, it does. They are so communicated by the words so spoken that impose them as well as what we have written. They do in fact exist. Just because you choose not to accept that is completely besides the point. In other words, it don’t matter.

And I'm waiting for you to demonstrate the truth of it. Go for it, I can't wait.
　

I haven’t a need to prove to you a thing. You have yet to disprove anything. In either case it would just be useless wagging of tongues. So why pursue such endless agony?

Maybe in your case. In mine, it would be a well-presented, well-reasoned, educational argument based on evidence and logic.

So I take it you don't have a leg to stand on then?

　
Within Torah, where did it allow parents to impose such?

I wasn't talking about Torah. Our morality has progressed well beyond sanctioning infanticide, thank goodness.
　

I don’t care. It doesn’t matter what they may have or may have not done. It is enough for me that Elohim felt they deserved this or that.

You sicken me. I enjoy the discussion, though, because in case anyone was considering adopting your religion, I'm confident you've completely repulsed them.

　
Again, I have no need to suffer your ignorance on the subject of my understanding.

All I know is what you've said here, and that's what I'm responding to. If I don't know any more about your beliefs, it's because you've failed to share it.

　
We shall soon see.

Care to put money on it?
　

LOL. If you say so. Your so funny. Its funny when others attack what they have no clue of.

Only describing what you've told us.
　

Society does as it chooses as to the whims of man. It is of the world. My understanding is not of the world. I have no stake in what the world does or doesn’t do. I am not a lover of the world but only love Yah with all my mind and being.

Would that be the same Yah as is responsible for your abhorrent, disgusting, violent, morals?

 

[Autodidact]

I was thinking about adopting Sinaiticism, but gwk has completely talked me out of it.

Call me crazy, I have this hangup about killing babies. But that's just me.