• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Genocide in 1st Samuel 15:2-3

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
God can order genocide--but only through a prophet--and that's...wait for it...common sense!!! :biglaugh:
Your disbelief has been noted long ago. Ridiculing comments asked of a person with a religious belief in the context of religious belief is discourteous.

If all I can expect from you is ridicule, let me know right so that I can put you on my ignore list and not have to deal with it further.



The common sense part of it is that an order from God would have to come through a prophet, seeing as this is how it is done consistently throughout the bible.

Since you don't believe in the bible, laughing at a statement made in the context of biblical belief is redundant.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
autodidact said:
Conversion to Judaism is possible.

Who told you otherwise?

Even if conversion is possible, conversion is not a high priority as it with Christianity and Islam. Judaism doesn't actively seek out people to convert to their religion, such as through missionaries.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Then again there is a difference between an "offering" and a "sacrifice".

In English, yes.

In the act of bringing an animal to the altar to be slaughtered, no.

Actually, neither the word "offering" nor the word "sacrifice" are appropriate. The root of the word Korban means "to draw close".
 

gnostic

The Lost One
fortunato said:
Do you happen to know which verse this was?

That's the easy part.

With regards to Saul and the Amalekites (in 1 Samuel 15), Samuel is the prophet.

In the book of Joshua, Joshua was the prophet who led the Israelites to capture and destroy Jericho. The only people in Jericho who were spared was the prostitute and her family (Joshua 6) because Rahab aided the Israelite spies (Jericho 2); the rest of them were killed; it doesn't say, but clearly the women and children were killed too.
 

Fortunato

Honest
That's the easy part.

With regards to Saul and the Amalekites (in 1 Samuel 15), Samuel is the prophet.

In the book of Joshua, Joshua was the prophet who led the Israelites to capture and destroy Jericho. The only people in Jericho who were spared was the prostitute and her family (Joshua 6) because Rahab aided the Israelite spies (Jericho 2); the rest of them were killed; it doesn't say, but clearly the women and children were killed too.
Thanks for the reply. My question was about which part of the Hebrew Bible stated that only a prophet of god could declare a genocide, not which prophets had declared genocide, and that was already answered by Poisonshady313.
 

gwk230

Active Member
In English, yes.
In the act of bringing an animal to the altar to be slaughtered, no.
Actually, neither the word "offering" nor the word "sacrifice" are appropriate. The root of the word Korban means "to draw close".
 
In Hebrew as well. Yes “Qorban” can be both a “Zebach” or a “Minchah”. One is a donation or tribute while the other is a sacrifice. Both are brought near the alter. See a sacrifice is something that you give for a personal purpose where an offering is that which you give out of reverence and praise. The offering that Cain and Abel preformed was not a sacrifice but rather a form of worship and praise. Its just Cain’s offering wasn’t of his first fruits and Abel’s offering was. Cain wanted to keep the best for himself and therefore coveted that which belongs to Yah. But that’s for another thread.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
 
In Hebrew as well. Yes “Qorban” can be both a “Zebach” or a “Minchah”. One is a donation or tribute while the other is a sacrifice. Both are brought near the alter. See a sacrifice is something that you give for a personal purpose where an offering is that which you give out of reverence and praise.

This doesn't sound right at all. Well, in English it makes sense, but it is not an accurate portrayal of how the Hebrew is used.

Zebach is used interchangeably for "offering" and "sacrifice"... while minchah is a meal offering.
 

gwk230

Active Member
This doesn't sound right at all. Well, in English it makes sense, but it is not an accurate portrayal of how the Hebrew is used.
Zebach is used interchangeably for "offering" and "sacrifice"... while minchah is a meal offering.
 
 
You sure your not getting the two words of “Zebach”, which is a sacrifice for a personal purpose, and “Zabach” which means to slaughter or kill for eating or to offer as a donation or tribute? One has meaning of a sacrifice while the other is simply the killing which could be used interchangeably with both “Zebach” as well as “Minchah”. I say “Minchah” with confidence as well because it is used in Bere**** 4:4 to describe Abel’s offering of the firstling of his flock which is not to be confused with any type of grain or meal.
 
RNEB
Gen 4:4 Abel also brought some of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat of it. YAH respected Abel and his offering,
 
Check it out in your Hebrew Tanach, as I did, and see if it isn’t so. Oh heck, here take this link ……….
 
http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml#Gen4:4-4:4
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
 
 
You sure your not getting the two words of “Zebach”, which is a sacrifice for a personal purpose, and “Zabach” which means to slaughter or kill for eating or to offer as a donation or tribute? One has meaning of a sacrifice while the other is simply the killing which could be used interchangeably with both “Zebach” as well as “Minchah”. I say “Minchah” with confidence as well because it is used in Bere**** 4:4 to describe Abel’s offering of the firstling of his flock which is not to be confused with any type of grain or meal.
 
RNEB
Gen 4:4 Abel also brought some of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat of it. YAH respected Abel and his offering,
 
Check it out in your Hebrew Tanach, as I did, and see if it isn’t so. Oh heck, here take this link ……….
 
http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml#Gen4:4-4:4

Cain's offering of fruits was also called mincha.

I'll run this by someone I know who knows about these things, and I'll get back to you.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Zebach and Zabach are two verb forms of the same word. There is no difference in meaning.

Zebach almost always refers to an animal offering. Mincha always refers to a meal offering, with the exception of Abel's offering.

Everyone of these things, without fail is a mere subset of "Korban", all of which are intended to bring the bringer closer to God.

The concept of an "offering" as opposed to a "sacrifice" does not exist. There are many different types of Korbanot, and they all served different purposes. But in Hebrew, there is no difference between "offering" and "sacrifice".


"See a sacrifice is something that you give for a personal purpose where an offering is that which you give out of reverence and praise."

This statement of yours is basically meaningless, and in Hebrew, there is no such concept.

A korban is a korban, whatever it's purpose may be.

"Sacrifice" is just a convenient english word, whose english definition is NOT reflected in the Hebrew word Koban.
 

gwk230

Active Member
Zebach and Zabach are two verb forms of the same word. There is no difference in meaning.


Well I have to disagree with your assumption that they are both verbs. “Zabach” is a verb as it is what you do to the animal while “Zebach” is a noun which is what it becomes after you have preformed “Zabach”. Strong’s as well as Brown-Driver-Brig’s agrees with this.


H2076
זבח
zâbach
BDB Definition:
1) to slaughter, kill, sacrifice, slaughter for sacrifice
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to slaughter for sacrifice
1a2) to slaughter for eating
1a3) to slaughter in divine judgment
1b) (Piel) to sacrifice, offer sacrifice
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 525


H2077
זבח
zebach
BDB Definition:
1) sacrifice
1a) sacrifices of righteousness
1b) sacrifices of strife
1c) sacrifices to dead things
1d) the covenant sacrifice
1e) the passover
1f) annual sacrifice
1g) thank offering
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2076
Same Word by TWOT Number: 525a
 

gwk230

Active Member
Zebach almost always refers to an animal offering. Mincha always refers to a meal offering, with the exception of Abel's offering.


Only exception is of Abel’s offering? I don’t think so………….


H4503
מנחה
minchâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 211
offering, 149
Gen_4:3-5 (3), Exo_29:41, Exo_30:9, Exo_40:29, Lev 2 (14), Lev_6:15 (4), Lev_6:20-21 (2), Lev_6:23, Lev_7:9-10 (2), Lev_7:37, Lev_9:4, Lev_9:17, Lev_10:12, Lev_14:20-21 (2), Lev_14:31, Lev_23:13, Lev_23:16, Lev_23:18, Lev_23:37, Num_4:16, Num_5:15 (2), Num_5:18 (2), Num_5:25-26 (3), Num_6:15, Num_6:17, Num_7:13, Num_7:19, Num_7:25, Num_7:31, Num_7:37, Num_7:43, Num_7:49, Num_7:55, Num_7:61, Num_7:67, Num_7:73, Num_7:79, Num_7:87, Num_8:8, Num_15:4, Num_15:6, Num_15:9, Num_15:24, Num_16:15, Num_18:9, Num_28:5, Num_28:8-9 (2), Num_28:12-13 (3), Num_28:20, Num_28:26, Num_28:28, Num_28:31, Num 29 (21), Jos_22:23, Jdg_13:19, Jdg_13:23, 1Sa_2:17, 1Sa_2:29, 1Sa_3:14, 1Sa_26:19, 2Ki_3:20, 2Ki_16:13, 2Ki_16:15 (3), 1Ch_16:29, 1Ch_21:23, 1Ch_23:29, Neh_10:33, Neh_13:9, Psa_40:6, Psa_96:8, Isa_43:23, Isa_57:6, Isa_66:20 (2), Eze_42:13, Eze_44:29, Eze_45:15, Eze_45:17, Eze_45:24-25 (2), Eze_46:5 (2), Eze_46:7, Eze_46:11, Eze_46:14-15 (3), Eze_46:20, Joe_1:9, Joe_2:13-14 (2), Mal_1:10-11 (3), Mal_1:13, Mal_2:12-13 (2), Mal_3:4
present, 22
Gen_32:13, Gen_32:18, Gen_32:20-21 (2), Gen_43:10-11 (2), Gen_43:15, Gen_43:25-26 (2), Jdg_3:15, Jdg_6:17-18 (4), 1Ki_10:25, 2Ki_8:8-9 (2), 2Ki_17:4, 2Ki_20:12, 2Ch_9:24, Isa_39:1, Hos_10:6
offerings, 16
Num_29:39, Jos_22:29, 1Sa_2:29, 1Ki_8:64 (2), 2Ch_7:7, Ezr_7:17, Neh_13:5 (2), Psa_20:3, Jer_17:26, Jer_33:18, Jer_41:5, Eze_45:17, Amo_5:22, Amo_5:25
gifts, 6
2Sa_8:2, 2Sa_8:6, 1Ch_18:2, 1Ch_18:6, 2Ch_26:8, 2Ch_32:23
presents, 6
1Sa_10:27, 1Ki_4:21, 2Ki_17:3, 2Ch_17:5, 2Ch_17:11, Psa_72:10
oblation, 5
Isa_19:21, Isa_66:3, Jer_14:12, Dan_9:21, Dan_9:27
sacrifice, 5
1Ki_18:29, 1Ki_18:36, Ezr_9:4-5 (2), Psa_141:2
gift, 1
Psa_45:12
oblations, 1
Isa_1:12-13 (2)


And I show only 5 times that it is used as “sacrifice” and if one reads carefully one will see even in the Hebrew that it isn’t a sacrifice as in a “Zebach” but merely a tribute offering as in a “Minchah”.
 

gwk230

Active Member
Everyone of these things, without fail is a mere subset of "Korban", all of which are intended to bring the bringer closer to God.


By that definition of qorban I have no argument with. Both a zebach as well as a minchah are qorbanot within the guidelines that you have thus set forth by your own definition. But it is said that qorban is a sacrifice to gain something from Yah being either his favor or his forgiveness. Then it wouldn’t work for a minchah to be a qorban. A minchah would be as a “nedabot” or free-will offering and more of a tribute or to do homage.


The concept of an "offering" as opposed to a "sacrifice" does not exist. There are many different types of Korbanot, and they all served different purposes. But in Hebrew, there is no difference between "offering" and "sacrifice".
"See a sacrifice is something that you give for a personal purpose where an offering is that which you give out of reverence and praise."


This statement of yours is basically meaningless, and in Hebrew, there is no such concept.


I completely disagree and believe that I have brought evidential proof to the contrary.


A korban is a korban, whatever it's purpose may be.


I agree as long as we stick to one definition. But we must stick to one and not many or I may have to disagree.


"Sacrifice" is just a convenient english word, whose english definition is NOT reflected in the Hebrew word Koban.


That’s funny. I see them being pretty much the same. Here, you read them…….


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=35&letter=S


As well as …………….


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacrifice[1]
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
By that definition of qorban I have no argument with. Both a zebach as well as a minchah are qorbanot within the guidelines that you have thus set forth by your own definition. But it is said that qorban is a sacrifice to gain something from Yah being either his favor or his forgiveness. Then it wouldn’t work for a minchah to be a qorban. A minchah would be as a “nedabot” or free-will offering and more of a tribute or to do homage.

Nedavot means "vows".

Anything that is brought to the altar, be it animal, meal, spice, etc... is a Qorban.


I completely disagree and believe that I have brought evidential proof to the contrary.


I agree as long as we stick to one definition. But we must stick to one and not many or I may have to disagree. [/QUOTE] I feel that you're putting too much faith in the english translation of the words... trying to find nuances that aren't there. As far as bringing something to the altar goes, offering = sacrifice.

That’s funny. I see them being pretty much the same. Here, you read them…….


I think I'll have my sister, Harmonious (who rarely posts here, but is a member), sort this out. She's very well educated in biblical Hebrew and the concept of Qorbanot... and I find her knowledge to be more authoritative than a strongs concordance.

By then, this will all make much more sense.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
gwk230 said:
Why? Why would you have a problem with the creator wanting to erase those that would not obey him and only wanted abominations? Yes the women are a part of it and the children would be brought up in it and doing the same things if not worse.

And how do you know that children would do something worse when they grow up, when they have not being given the chance to grow up?

You don't know that. I don't know that. And I don't think the author know that. We are basing on the assumption that what the so-called god or his prophet say is true. You are playing the "what if game", where there's probably a 50-50 chance of Amalekite children would be the same or not.

I don't like such odds.

I don't know about you, but I could not kill a baby, regardless what the future may be. You have to be absolutely 110% that the baby's future is that of a mass-murder or something worse to carry out such act. Can I trust the word of those who claimed to be a prophet or acting on god's behalf.

Can you murder an infant, if god told you to do so because he claimed to know the child's future?

I certainly couldn't. If you do, then you are nothing more than a murderer, a baby-killer.
 

gwk230

Active Member
Nedavot means "vows".


I know this. You must be completely misunderstanding me. I said that minchah are like nedabot but more in the since of tributes or doing homage. Does this not make any sense to you at all?


Anything that is brought to the altar, be it animal, meal, spice, etc... is a Qorban.


I agree, if we are agreeing with the definition of qorban being “something brought near the alter” and nothing other. This would indicate that both zebach as well as minchah are considered qorban.


I feel that you're putting too much faith in the english translation of the words...


If they are English words then one should have faith in the correct definition. Same with defining the Hebrew words within their correct context. Putting one’s own definitions on words confuse those of us who use well established dictionaries that have been accepted for centuries. Unless there be some evidential proof like in the form of ancient text that shows another meaning than that which has already been accepted then we must stick to the latter.


trying to find nuances that aren't there. As far as bringing something to the altar goes, offering = sacrifice.


I again disagree. One can “offer a sacrifice” but an “offering”, as is stated in the Hebrew text as “minchah”, is not a “zebach/sacrifice”.


I think I'll have my sister, Harmonious (who rarely posts here, but is a member), sort this out. She's very well educated in biblical Hebrew and the concept of Qorbanot... and I find her knowledge to be more authoritative than a strongs concordance.
By then, this will all make much more sense.


O.k. but don’t hold your breath if you think that I am going to take the word of your sister over that of a well accepted concordance, and other respected lexicons, without factual evidential proof.
 

gwk230

Active Member
And how do you know that children would do something worse when they grow up, when they have not being given the chance to grow up?

You don't know that. I don't know that. And I don't think the author know that. We are basing on the assumption that what the so-called god or his prophet say is true. You are playing the "what if game", where there's probably a 50-50 chance of Amalekite children would be the same or not.

I don't like such odds.

I don't know about you, but I could not kill a baby, regardless what the future may be. You have to be absolutely 110% that the baby's future is that of a mass-murder or something worse to carry out such act. Can I trust the word of those who claimed to be a prophet or acting on god's behalf.

Can you murder an infant, if god told you to do so because he claimed to know the child's future?

I certainly couldn't. If you do, then you are nothing more than a murderer, a baby-killer.

:rolleyes:


:woohoo:Baby killer! Baby killer!:woohoo:
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
I know this. You must be completely misunderstanding me. I said that minchah are like nedabot but more in the since of tributes or doing homage. Does this not make any sense to you at all?
No, it makes no sense whatsoever.

A Mincha is brought with every Qorban Tamid (daily offering) and Qorban Mussaf (extra offerings for holidays), as well as other times.

It isn't about the function of the offering (vows, tribute, atonement, thanksgiving, etc.), but of what it serves.

I may not be a walking, talking concordinance, but I HAVE learned quite a bit about the regular sacrifices (I'm using this word generically), because I made it my business to recite the passages daily, painstakingly reciting every word. It is part of the Jewish morning service, the extra service for holidays, and (for Sephardic and Israeli Jews) the afternoon service.

I agree, if we are agreeing with the definition of qorban being “something brought near the alter” and nothing other. This would indicate that both zebach as well as minchah are considered qorban.
That's exactly correct. MANY things are Qorbanot. Not simply things that are offered on the altar. Zevachim and Menachot are ALSO Qorbanot.

If they are English words then one should have faith in the correct definition. Same with defining the Hebrew words within their correct context. Putting one’s own definitions on words confuse those of us who use well established dictionaries that have been accepted for centuries.
What works better than someone who actually knows what the Qorbanot WERE, because I've studied them.

It is more helpful than a simple definition. It helps to know the context of such things. And just because Strong has been accepted by CHRISTIANS for centuries doesn't mean that Jews who are knowledgeable in Torah particularly care.

Unless there be some evidential proof like in the form of ancient text that shows another meaning than that which has already been accepted then we must stick to the latter.
Exactly. Like someone who has studied Torah law, including the general circumstances of how Qorbanot were brought.

I might not have every last detail about how the animals were slaughtered, but I DO actually pay attention to what I read come every Biblical Jewish holiday (Purim excepted, because it didn't find its origin in the Five Books of Moses).

I again disagree. One can “offer a sacrifice” but an “offering”, as is stated in the Hebrew text as “minchah”, is not a “zebach/sacrifice”.
Instead of focusing on Zebach, and Mincha, it is more helpful to understand the function of a Qorban when it is referred to as an Olah, a Chatat, a Todah, a Chagiga, a Tamid, a Mussaf, a Pesach, a Nedava. These are all words that define the function of a Qorban.

Zebach merely refers to the fact that it is an animal being brought. A Mincha (from Leviticus onward) refers to the fact that it is brought from grain. In Genesis, the word Mincha referred to an offering of an important nature. That was what Abel's sacrifice was called. That is what Jacob's offering to Esav was (when Esav came after him with 400 men).

O.k. but don’t hold your breath if you think that I am going to take the word of your sister over that of a well accepted concordance, and other respected lexicons, without factual evidential proof.
Believe what you will. However, many years in Yeshiva and actually learning of the sacrifices, and mentioning them daily, weekly, and whenever holidays pop up, I've learned a thing or two.

Maybe you won't be convinced. That is your right. However, it is one thing to put one's faith in scholarship that has no background in the application of Jewish law. It is entirely different to put one's faith in scholarship that makes use of the regular application of Jewish law, even when the actual practice of said sacrifices is currently on hold.
 
Top