Genome sequencing leaves Creationists unable to respond

[Luminous]

And which side of the fence do you prefer?

You can say God is indifferent....I agree.
There are 6billion people on this earth and most will fail.

You can say God cares....I agree.
There are plenty of prophets and scribes....who make such report.

what a great oxymoron this idea of yours is.
i find it horribly depresing that people can't bring themselves to confess their agnosticism.

 

[Thief]

what a great oxymoron this idea of yours is.
i find it horribly depresing that people can't bring themselves to confess their agnosticism.

I've been described in many ways....but never before agnostic.

What do you think?...something not at my disposal?

Ask me.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I would agree with you....the rules are His to make.
Also...once in motion...the churning chemistry will produce something....
as intended.

But to go so far as to say....'God does not tinker'....
is to believe in a God ....inert...and possibly dead.

Hardly so... God does not require two bites of the same cherry when he does something.

Such belief also rules out the event of Chapter Two of Genesis....
an obvious tinkering....to change the course of Man.

That would imply I believe Genesis to relevant or true... I do not. However it does contain some spiritual guidance.

It also rules out spiritual tinkering......prophets

I see tinkering as making alterations to things he has already set in motion, as it is not working out the way he wanted or expected. That would seem to suggest his actions are not perfect.

Prophets are needed to give us new paths to follow, when we are or have been, diverted from God's wishes by our free will. They do not make corrections to God's actions they make corrections to ours.

 

[Harmonious]

I'm guessing you are not a Young Earth Creationist, as your post is both reasonable and humble.

Thank you for your compliment.

The fact is that I don't know, and my belief system supports both a Young Earth AND an Old Earth as part of Creation. The ultimate answer isn't as important as Creation actually existing and us being a part of it.

There is the idea that God created the universe in seven days, but there is nothing to say that they were 24-hour days, nor were there humans alive and available to keep track of such things to say whether or not there were 24-hour days yet.

I mean... The sun wasn't even created until Day 4. Therefore, the idea that a day must be 24 hours wasn't necessarily established yet.

Therefore... The world COULD be either way, and neither understanding of time during creation bothers me.

But I get the feeling the folks you are referring to are rabid in their insistence that the Universe was created in six 24-hour days. I'm not insistent either way. I can ask God myself, in 120 years. But it would be nothing more than settling idle curiosity, for me.

 

[Harmonious]

Hardly so... God does not require two bites of the same cherry when he does something.

Painfully withholding comment about something seriously off-topic...

 

[Harmonious]

Hardly so... God does not require two bites of the same cherry when he does something.

That would imply I believe Genesis to relevant or true... I do not. However it does contain some spiritual guidance.

I see tinkering as making alterations to things he has already set in motion, as it is not working out the way he wanted or expected. That would seem to suggest his actions are not perfect.

Prophets are needed to give us new paths to follow, when we are or have been, diverted from God's wishes by our free will. They do not make corrections to God's actions they make corrections to ours.

I like the way you think.

 

[Harmonious]

I've been described in many ways....but never before agnostic.

Agnostic on the issue of evolution.

I guess it means that you're not completely sold on the idea, but you're not entirely rejecting it, either.

It is a different context of the word than you are used to seeing it. But it means precisely the same thing, with a different object of belief to focus on.

 

[Harmonious]

It is impossible to justify the thought, that God controls the day to day process of evolution.

There is certainly the possibility that he formulated the rules of the process into the laws of the universe.

I rather doubt that God ever tinkers with the physical aspects of his creation, or with the process itself.

Evolutionary Systems created by God would be as he wished them to be from the start. Where they will lead is known only to him.

I'm not sure about that. I would say that God DOES control the day to day process of evolution.

I'm of the belief that God micromanages everything, ESPECIALLY all aspects of God's creation, with the exception of human behavior. And even then, there are limits.

We have free will, but then, we only have certain outcomes available to us...

 

[Harmonious]

but none of that is determined. and to think it is, feeds into narcissistic tendencies. we are no more important then the fish in your aquarium in the scheme of things, and for some that's a hard pill to swallow.

This is the second thread I've seen you advance this idea.

Why is it so hard to imagine that God actually values humanity more than, say, other beings He created? God is infinite, God is great, God is the creator. But then again, God has the ability to focus on the finite and the small.

Why is it so hard to imagine that God CAN actually keep track of things as small as people, and find what we do to be important?

I don't mean to derail this thread, but I just don't get your insistence that God is so great that He just doesn't care about humanity.

 

[waitasec]

This is the second thread I've seen you advance this idea.

Why is it so hard to imagine that God actually values humanity more than, say, other beings He created? God is infinite, God is great, God is the creator. But then again, God has the ability to focus on the finite and the small.

Why is it so hard to imagine that God CAN actually keep track of things as small as people, and find what we do to be important?

I don't mean to derail this thread, but I just don't get your insistence that God is so great that He just doesn't care about humanity.

no worries, i do it to
well it stems from the idea that a benevolent god would create a system of suffering in order for the predator to consume it's prey, for example the snake and the wasp, doesn't make sense to me. therefore with examples such as these i believe nature is indifferent. nature is not involved with our day to day problems because it is not consistent with the system.

 

[waitasec]

And which side of the fence do you prefer?

You can say God is indifferent....I agree.
There are 6billion people on this earth and most will fail.

not most. all. it's a part of life...no one is perfect
it's chaos.

You can say God cares....I agree.
There are plenty of prophets and scribes....who make such report.

which feeds into the self centered tendencies.

 

[waitasec]

I believe there are a few out here.
This is an old video after the "dover trial". Ken Miller was the PBS Darwanian Biologist in "Evolution Series". (I had to look that up tonight).
What exactly is the question? Is it concerning a common DNA library?
Is it directed versus accidental progression of species from a common DNA library?
Is it just a statement that the video has all the information one needs to enjoy a good conversation.
My question to you is: What part of a metaphysical question do you think anybody can prove?
When evolution and ID have metaphysical presuppositions, the end result is not going to be under the "scientific method" scrutiny.
Inherent in the Big Bang theory are two presuppositions that are similar to the Evolution theory: 1) There are no outside forces affecting the process 2) very long periods of time are required for the process.
These are reasonable presuppositions, but unprovable.
Inherent in the “Creation Myth” that is described in Genesis are three presupposition: 1) There was a outside force affecting the process 2) Time is relative 3) The English translation of the “Bible” is full of the same information as the Hebrew text .
The first is reasonable and unprovable. The second is true and has been proven. The last one is false and provable.
Good stuff.
How do you explain the creation of the entire universe ? (you can substitute evolution for universe with less books written).
Can you write millions of books that document every measurement that is possible concerning astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, mathematics, physics and other studies and still not know how the universe started? The answer is yes.
Can you write just 32 sentences in an ancient book and have enough information to document an outline of the entire creation event? The answer is yes.

well thank you for that. i think
first of all, i started this thread to start a conversation concerning the possibility of common descent, as meow mix put it.

as far as the metaphysical, i don't know. but from what i do understand is science has discovered things that were not even imaginable 100 yrs ago.
our capacity of knowledge keeps increasing... what we have also seen is that whenever we come to our wits end it must be god, until the next genius comes along...
ancient books were written by a people from a time where they didn't have the knowledge we do now, which brings me to another thought, had we known then what we do now we wouldn't experience religion the way we experience it today.

if you have the time, i recommend;
[youtube]DpNTWx4KL10[/youtube]
YouTube - The God of the Gaps (by Neil deGrasse Tyson) 1of2
[youtube]4F2CpdwFg50[/youtube]
YouTube - The God of the Gaps (by Neil deGrasse Tyson) 2of2
combined they are less then a half hour...

 

[Harmonious]

no worries, i do it to

Cool.

well it stems from the idea that a benevolent god would create a system of suffering in order for the predator to consume it's prey, for example the snake and the wasp, doesn't make sense to me.

I understand that concept. However, I would also assert that God understands how the world He made works, even if we don't understand it.

But I am firmly of the belief that God does indeed pay attention to every little detail. Even if we don't understand it.

therefore with examples such as these i believe nature is indifferent. nature is not involved with our day to day problems because it is not consistent with the system.

Eh. It is VERY consistent with the system. We just don't know the score card that God is using when it comes to why good things happen to bad people and vise-versa.

God cares. God just doesn't give us the memo to let us know what the individual criteria are for His decisions.

 

[waitasec]

Eh. It is VERY consistent with the system. We just don't know the score card that God is using when it comes to why good things happen to bad people and vise-versa.

God cares. God just doesn't give us the memo to let us know what the individual criteria are for His decisions.

it's a chaotic from how i see it. truth doesn't take your feelings into consideration and as polyhedral put it

Either God doesn't exist at all, or He isn't benevolant. That's the only way for that to make sense.

so if god is the god of chaos, god doesn't desire to promote prosperity and happiness. that to me is consistent with the system because there's too much misery in the world.

 

[Harmonious]

it's a chaotic from how i see it. truth doesn't take your feelings into consideration and as polyhedral put it

I can see why you would say so. However, God DOES take feelings into consideration. It may not always show in a way you would recognize, though.

so if god is the god of chaos,

Which I don't believe, even as I acknowledge that is how you see things...

god doesn't desire to promote prosperity and happiness. that to me is consistent with the system because there's too much misery in the world.

I'm not sure about that. Again, I see why you would say so.

But if people actually followed the concepts God commands, particularly following the laws guiding inter-human relationships, it is clear that God is VERY interested in promoting prosperity and happiness.

Yes, there is a lot of misery in the world. But there is also a lot of joy in the world.

Yes, there is a lot of hate in the world. But there is also a lot of love in the world.

I'm not sure why you only focus on the negative but ignore the positive that exists around us.

I admit that I don't understand many of God's choices, but I also admitted that I never got the memo stating why God does what He does.

I DO know that God (as I believe in God) is involved with truth, with justice, and with mercy. But all of these things are part of a complicated score card, involving all KINDS of things, like motivations, free will, reward and punishment, personal obstacles, and other complications in life.

I don't begin to understand it. But if I am consistent in my beliefs, I believe that God has everything covered, and I'm more than willing to admit that I don't understand everything that God does and why. But I believe that God does ultimately have our best interests in mind.

I know that doesn't make sense, when you factor in many tragedies and things like that. I don't know what to tell you. I also know that nothing I say can make you believe as I do, and I wouldn't try to make you.

I can only share my belief with you, and behave as best as I can.

 

[waitasec]

I can see why you would say so. However, God DOES take feelings into consideration. It may not always show in a way you would recognize, though.


Which I don't believe, even as I acknowledge that is how you see things...

I'm not sure about that. Again, I see why you would say so.

But if people actually followed the concepts God commands, particularly following the laws guiding inter-human relationships, it is clear that God is VERY interested in promoting prosperity and happiness.

Yes, there is a lot of misery in the world. But there is also a lot of joy in the world.

Yes, there is a lot of hate in the world. But there is also a lot of love in the world.

I'm not sure why you only focus on the negative but ignore the positive that exists around us.

I admit that I don't understand many of God's choices, but I also admitted that I never got the memo stating why God does what He does.

I DO know that God (as I believe in God) is involved with truth, with justice, and with mercy. But all of these things are part of a complicated score card, involving all KINDS of things, like motivations, free will, reward and punishment, personal obstacles, and other complications in life.

I don't begin to understand it. But if I am consistent in my beliefs, I believe that God has everything covered, and I'm more than willing to admit that I don't understand everything that God does and why. But I believe that God does ultimately have our best interests in mind.

I know that doesn't make sense, when you factor in many tragedies and things like that. I don't know what to tell you. I also know that nothing I say can make you believe as I do, and I wouldn't try to make you.

I can only share my belief with you, and behave as best as I can.

let me ask you this, how is it you understand why i would come to this conclusion of a chaotic system?

as for me i can only convey what i believe;
i am responsible for my actions, life deals me the cards it may and i just work with it knowing the same is for everyone else, while holding a sense of dignity and integrity as my northern star.

 

[Thief]

not most. all. it's a part of life...no one is perfect
it's chaos.

which feeds into the self centered tendencies.

Your post speaks of non-belief....yours.

Chaos is correct however.
Like everyone else....you're here for the ride.
It can be a rough ride and terminates the same for all....
you lose your breath.

Sooner or later you have to get off.
Anyone waiting for you?

I bet you will say...'no'.

 

[waitasec]

Your post speaks of non-belief....yours.

Chaos is correct however.
Like everyone else....you're here for the ride.
It can be a rough ride and terminates the same for all....
you lose your breath.

Sooner or later you have to get off.
Anyone waiting for you?

I bet you will say...'no'.

you are presuming there is someone waiting for you
the laws of nature contradict this notion.

 

[Thief]

you are presuming there is someone waiting for you
the laws of nature contradict this notion.

The word 'supernatural' is not in your vocabulary?

Assuming the after life does not exist?
What cause did you have to rule it out?

If you have proof positive ...it is not there....fine.
Without proof...it falls to faith ...which needs no proof.

 

[Harmonious]

let me ask you this, how is it you understand why i would come to this conclusion of a chaotic system?

I believe in God, and I have my own beliefs about Him and His motivations.

I'm not blind to tragedy and misery that happens the world. It isn't hard to see why people who have no particular reason to believe in God or God's goodness might look at all the bad in the world and believe that chaos reigns supreme, or that if there is a God that He just doesn't care.

When people look at the death toll after earthquakes or hurricanes and cry "What loving God would do that?" I understand the words they say. I'm not unfeeling, and even though I don't share the sentiment, such a conclusion isn't illogical to draw.

I have a friend who ceased to be an Orthodox Jew when 9/11 happened mere days before Rosh Hashana. The whole disconnect happened because she couldn't fathom God allowing 3,000 innocent people to die, when all they did was show up to work.

She drifted in a spiritual odessy, searching for something that made sense to her. She eventually found her way back to Judaism (kind of), but she still hasn't forgiven God.

I don't know your particular cause for discontent in the world, or with God. But if you had one, you wouldn't be the first person to tell me about such a thing, and you probably won't be the last.

as for me i can only convey what i believe;
i am responsible for my actions, life deals me the cards it may and i just work with it knowing the same is for everyone else, while holding a sense of dignity and integrity as my northern star.

I hear that.