Gentiles in Christianity

[S.T.Ranger]

Hello

Hello Treks, glad to make your acquaintance.

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish)

Great question, though perhaps not for the reason you might think.

The issue to understand is that the Messiah had a role to fulfill that was specific to Israel, and a role to fulfill that included the entire world. He was made under the (Covenant of) Law, ministered under the Law, and dealt with the "Lost Sheep of Israel." This does not mean He never ministered to Gentiles, there are occasions when He did, but, the point I am making is that we can distinguish the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom with the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of the Kingdom was specific to Israel, and spoke/speaks of the Millennial Kingdom, which, while not established at Christ's first coming, will be established after the Tribulation. The Gospel of Christ is made clear by Paul to be the Hidden Wisdom of God, a Mystery no revealed to the Saints in Ages Past. In view are two aspects we must consider, 1) revelation, and 2) enlightenment. The Gospel of Christ is seen throughout Scripture, but, understanding of the Gospel in the Old Testament is reserved for those in this Age. In other words, just as John the Baptist prophesied about the Lamb of God without full understanding of what that meant (for he sent two disciples to inquire if Jesus were the One they awaited while he was in prison), even so the Prophets prophesied without full understanding.

So it is not a matter that Christ "was not inclined to help the woman," it was a matter that at that time His ministry was specific to Israel, in fulfilling Prophecy that related to Israel concerning the Messiah.

Further, the fact is that Gentile Inclusion was not just a matter of Prophecy...


Isaiah 42:6-7
King James Version (KJV)

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


...but we do not make the mistake that Gentiles were somehow bereft of the grace and mercy of God in the Age of Law (and of course all were "Gentiles" prior to the creation of Israel):


Romans 1:18-20
King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



Romans 2:10-16
King James Version (KJV)

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Gentiles during the Age of Law could do the things contained in the Law because of God's internal witness in them. It is by this they will be judged, and they were/will be declared just or unjust according to their response to the revealed will of God in their hearts.


Continued...

 

[WINDINWATERS]

Not only racist also ideological bigotry and you people believe this sick garbage there is no hope for such

 

[S.T.Ranger]

and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree,

I think you are forgetting that both Jew and Gentile are branches, which levels the playing field, and separates both from the Root:


Romans 11:17-18
King James Version (KJV)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


The "Olive Tree" here is the Provision of God to both Jew and Gentile.

We see similar figurative language in John 15:


John 15
King James Version (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Sometimes there are questions that can bring understanding, if we can answer them, to some of the more controversial passages. The question I think we must ask is...

...what is the Vine which is not the True Vine?

The answer is...Israel.

Israel was created as a means of a separated people in relationship with God. What Christ is telling the Disciples here is that at a future time (just as John 14 is prophetic) they were not to trust in their heritage any longer as the means of relationship to and with God, for their relationship would be through Christ alone.

If you carefully consult the Gospels you will see that the Disciples of Christ were not trusting in His Sacrifice and Resurrection (they did not believe He arose, i.e., Mark 16:11-14), they were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed in eternal union with God, Reconciled), and they did not...

...abide in Christ, as He commands in the above passage.

This goes back to the first response to your post, Treks, and again I will point out the Gospel of Christ was yet a mystery, unrevealed:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


It would not be until Christ arose from the dead, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter that the Gospel would be revealed, the disciples would be born again through the reconciliatory Work of Christ in which they would be brought into union with God as He taught in John 14.

Everlasting life is the result of the Eternal Indwelling of God, and this began after Christ was glorified:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


So Paul is not separating or giving glory to Jews over Gentiles, as this would conflict with his teaching that God has made both one.


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place,

Romans 11:17-18
King James Version (KJV)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Some, not all, for there were many Jews who received Christ.

The point is not to boast against the tragedy which has befallen some of the branches, which is also true of those branches not boasting that they were natural, lol.

until all the Gentiles accept God,

"All the Gentiles" will not accept God, for Christ teaches a many/few ratio in regards to salvation as opposed to damnation.

wherein the Jews will b saved.

Not all Jews will be saved either, but, "All Israel will be saved" when the Deliverer comes, because the Jews who are not born again during the Tribulation will be destroyed when He comes, and only those born again (the Sheep of Matthew 25) will enter the Kingdom, hence...all Israel will be saved.

Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews,

And Paul's humility as a Jew should be an example for those who are natural branches. He was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, and my personal hero.

because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

And the reason for being cut off is unbelief, which God has always shown grace towards, for all are unbelieving when they enter this world.

Gentiles should no more view the fall of Israel as a credit to themselves than Israel should have viewed their relationship with God as a credit to themselves.

This is particularly true concerning salvation in Christ because no man or woman contributes or contributed to their salvation, it was freely given them based on God's grace and mercy. Not because of something they did, or something they will do at a future date, which means...there simply isn't anything to boast about.

Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome,

On the contrary, God has done precisely what He said He would do, and Gentiles have always been a part of that Promise:


Genesis 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


The problem some have is that they do not understand that Christ is the Seed, rather than the general offspring of Abraham, even traced through Isaac.

God did provide Himself a Lamb.

or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

Simply not a Biblical concept. Jews are being saved today, and Gentiles will not be cut out during the Millennial Kingdom (or the Tribulation, for that matter).

In view is Israel on a National basis, and it is the Restoration of Israel that we await. Scripture does not teach an exclusivity of salvation for Israel at any time, or in any Age, but we see both Jew and Gentile saved in all relevant Ages.

The day is coming when the Deliverer will return and restore Israel to her glory, and Israel will then have a King that they rejected previously (God).

The Lord does not deny the carnal yearnings of the Disciples prior to their immersion into God:


Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


For me this is one of the most astounding passages in all of Scripture. Here the Disciples are told they are going to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence...and they ask if the physical Kingdom is going to be restored. The Lord's response is suitable, "It is not for you to know at this time when that is going to take place."

The sooner the better.


God bless.

 

[pearl]

The Gospel of the Kingdom was specific to Israel, and spoke/speaks of the Millennial Kingdom, which, while not established at Christ's first coming, will be established after the Tribulation.

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." It seems the Kingdom was inaugurated with Jesus, but not yet fulfilled.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." It seems the Kingdom was inaugurated with Jesus, but not yet fulfilled.

It is critical to place each Kingdom in its context. Israel awaited Messiah to establish authority, restore Israel, and reign forever, which would have meant His lineage would never fail to produce an heir to sit on the Throne. They did not understand that the kingdom of God could be viewed in two primary concepts, one which is spiritual, and one which was physical, because much of the understanding of the Old Testament Saint was physical.

Consider Peter's reaction to Christ conveying the Gospel to them:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


We do not conclude Peter was not a man of faith, but, we maintain the progression of revelation as Scripture does, and understand that he, and the Disciples...had not yet been made to understand the Gospel yet.

Again, we see that here:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


The Kingdom awaited by Israel was the physical Kingdom promised in Prophecy, which will one day be established (following the Tribulation), but, at the same time the spiritual Kingdom of God was still in existence.

Now, the Kingdoms that are relevant to this discussion is the Kingdom seen here:



Colossians 1:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


That Kingdom is specific to those who have been born again, which is the result of the believer being reconciled to God, which of course was accomplished through Christ Himself. That Kingdom began at Pentecost when the Church began (when the Comforter arrived).

The physical Kingdom, which is what much of Christ's teaching is relevant to (and I do not mean to imply it has no relevance to us, it does), itself has two aspects, first, that which existed, which was Israel, and then the second, which is Israel as she was meant to be. And how she was meant to be was a Kingdom which had God as their King (rather than clamoring for a man), which lived as God meant for them, and was in obedience to the principles that God has always taught.

Israel was in need of redemption, but, their idea of redemption was physical, for they could not understand the depth of their true malady, sin. When Redemption came, she rejected the Remedy, preferring instead to await that physical Kingdom they concluded was the Kingdom God promised.


God bless.

 

[InChrist]

[QUOTE="Luca85, post: 5201066, member: 53826"


By the way...I am sure those videos you posted are just anti-Jewish propaganda....and they cannot be used to portray what most Jews think.[/QUOTE]

This is worth a re-post, IMO.

 

[InChrist]

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

I don't feel like a pawn at all. I am so thankful to be part of God's incredible plan played out through history and into eternity.

 

[pearl]

It is critical to place each Kingdom in its context.

Jesus proclaimed one thing, the kingdom of God, better understood as the reign or rule of God. It refers to an action, God is ruling powerfully as king, as demonstrated in Jesus healings, defeat of demons etc.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Jesus proclaimed one thing, the kingdom of God, better understood as the reign or rule of God. It refers to an action, God is ruling powerfully as king, as demonstrated in Jesus healings, defeat of demons etc.

So you see no distinction between the Kingdom that is physical (which will be established at Christ's Return, the Kingdom which was spiritual which existed during that day (and was comprised of those who were of faith in God, whether Jew or Gentile), and the Kingdom which Christ established through His Work? Which no man was a part of until Pentecost?


John 3:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


The typical argument that I presented is "Well, the Lord would not demand men must be born again if it couldn't happen," but, the fact is that Christ also demanded that men believe on Him, His Death, His Resurrection, that they "abide in Him," and not one person can be found to be doing that rior to His Resurrection and return to Heaven.

Consider that Peter rejected the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Consider that not one of the disciples believed the Lord did what He said He would do...rise from the dead:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Then consider that not one man had received the Holy Spirit (in the particular ministry of Comforter, which would begin after Christ's return to Heaven:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


It is true the spiritual rule and reign of God in the hearts of men is a Kingdom that has always existed, but, I would suggest to you that introduction of the Kingdom of Christ began at Pentecost, and should be distinguished from the other Kingdoms spoken of.


God bless.

 

[Estro Felino]

There does seem to be a lot of racism, and bigotry; not sure based on all texts, that all the Jews will ever see the Goyim as equals.

Even if all that was true (and it isn't), what changes? A Christian who is supposed to love every human being on Earth, and to love his enemies, doesn't really care about what certain peoples think of him.

 

[wizanda]

Even if all that was true (and it isn't), what changes?

Have you not read much Rabbinic writing then?

Change would come from recognizing how vile some of it is; that way people adjust, as the videos show the more secular Jews who have been mixed into different ethical standards, haven't got the same superiority complex, that is being taught at an early age within Rabbinic Judaism.

 

[Desert Snake]

The second video is a Jew interviewing both secular, and Orthodox Jews in Israel, and showing that it depends on religious views.

The first video is two Orthodox Jews discussing Talmudic understanding, all these things are stated in the texts; none of it is antisemitic, these are just the facts of what some Jews believe.

There does seem to be a lot of racism, and bigotry; not sure based on all texts, that all the Jews will ever see the Goyim as equals.

Not everyone is going to like the truth when you present it.

 

[wizanda]

Not everyone is going to like the truth when you present it.

Doesn't matter who presents it, the world is full of people who would rather keep their nice perspective of reality; rather than investigate that it might be a horror movie in places.

 

[pearl]

So you see no distinction between the Kingdom that is physical (which will be established at Christ's Return, the Kingdom which was spiritual which existed during that day (and was comprised of those who were of faith in God, whether Jew or Gentile), and the Kingdom which Christ established through His Work? Which no man was a part of until Pentecost?

The symbol of the Kingdom as Jesus proclaims it presumes the truth that God has always been king of Israel and of the universe. However, God's rebellious creation has fallen away from his righteous rule and come under the domination by Satan and sin. Faithful to his promises and prophecies in the covenant, God is now beginning to assert his rightful claim over his rebellious creatures and will establish his rule fully gathering a scattered Israel back into one holy people. Yet Jesus proclaims not on image of God as remote or all-powerful king, but He proclaims that the divine king is a loving father. What Christ established was the 'now but not yet' of the one kingdom which is open to all and not just to isolated individuals but to sinners, as evidenced in Jesus' table fellowship with the religious low life of his day.

 

[Daisies4me]

Hello

When Gentiles read the New Testament, what do you think of parts such as Jesus and the Gentile Woman (where Jesus was not inclined to help the woman because she was not Jewish) and Paul's letter to the Romans where he reminds Gentiles that they are a branch of a wild olive tree, and the Jews are a branch of God's holy olive tree, but because the Jew's weren't getting it, God cut off the Jewish branch and grafted the Gentile branch in place, until all the Gentiles accept God, wherein the Jews will b saved. Paul reminds the Gentiles not to get haughty before the Jews, because if God can cut off he Jewish branch which actually belongs on the holy olive tree, he'll be even quicker to cut off the foreign branch from the wild olive tree.

Do you get the feeling that you're not really welcome, or at the very least, you're pawns to get the Jews back and will thereafter be discarded?

Thanks

(quote)

Hi Trek

Are you speaking of the Samaritan woman whom Jesus had a conversation with at the well that Jacob dug, near the city of Sychar, where he stopped to rest?
Jews and Samaritans usually had no dealings with each other because of deep seated prejudices. So the woman was astonished when Jesus asked her for a drink, while she was drawing water. Which is why she asked him the question, as to why , he being a Jew, asked her, a Samaritan woman, for a drink, if you recall the Bible account. To which Jesus replied that if she had known about the free gift of God, and who it was that was asking her for a drink , she would have asked him and he would have given her life saving water. The woman, then replies to Jesus to the effect that he had not even a bucket to draw water, and the well was deep, from what source, then, did he have this life giving water?
She goes on to tell him that He is not greater than her forefather Jacob, who gave them that well, and who , along with his sons and his cattle drank out of it--asking him, 'are you?'
Jesus then explains to her that everyone drinking from that well will get thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water he gives them will become in himself a spring bubbling forth to impart everlasting life. We can see from this conversation that Jesus was willing to and did share life giving words of truth with the Samaritan (not Jewish) woman at the well.
After conversing further, the woman says to Jesus, "Sir, I perceive that you are a Prophet". Jesus goes on the say to her things that are not prejudicial, but that apply to all who will listen to His Words---"the hour is coming and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the FAther with spirit and truth, for indeed the Father is looking for such ones like these to worship Him".
Jesus then went on to reveal to the Samaritan woman that He is the Christ.
So Jesus was not bound by the prejudices of their present society, any more than his followers are today. Anyone who fears disobeying the True God, and Keeps His commandments , regardless of national origin, race, language group, gender, etc., is acceptable to Him.

Good topic for discussion. Thanks for bringing it up.

peace to you

 

[Brickjectivity]

What is it about Catholic scholarship that deserved rejection? Especially since the Church does not teach a literalist interpretation of the Bible.

I didn't mean to imply it was because of scholarship but that the scholarship was rejected along with the Roman church. Most churches today are not conversant with that scholarship. We have generations of churches where its never mentioned.

 

[pearl]

I didn't mean to imply it was because of scholarship but that the scholarship was rejected along with the Roman church. Most churches today are not conversant with that scholarship. We have generations of churches where its never mentioned.

Often what theologians are up to is ignored by the churches. I have found it beneficial to read a collaborative study by both Protestant and Catholic scholars.

 

[pearl]

We can see from this conversation that Jesus was willing to and did share life giving words of truth with the Samaritan (not Jewish) woman at the well.

The Samaritans thought of themselves as the 'true' Jews and what came back with the Jews from exile was foreign to them. The Samaritans were the Jews left behind and were not taken, as the conquerors took only the rich and educated.