Genuine question for Creationists

[rusra02]

Wonderful. Now lets try answering the actual question.
How do you differentiate designed things from natural things when YOU see them?

Give me an example of what you consider a "natural" thing.

 

[Nada]

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Since we are all inside the same Universe (I believe this is obvious...what a way to start a question...this parentheses is taking too long...) and thus have never been subjected to an other form, hypothetically, of "natural creation" or "design", how can you justify that the Universe is intelligently designed such that it appoints to a God?
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If I am this supernatural being and I taste the most horrible cupcake ever made, but for human beings it is the BEST CUPCAKE they ever made, but then I travel to some other universe (This is a kind of fiction to justify my point) and taste some other cupcake, which is comparably much better than man's best cupcake, so I am in a position to compare both cupcakes. One is horrid and the other is tasty.
But of course humans are not supernatural beings and we can't "taste cupcakes out of this universe", so we have nothing to compare mankind's cupcakes to. They are just "mankind's cupcakes". Synonymously, we have no other universe we can compare this one to, so we, as creatures subjected to only this universe, have a tendency to view it as "orderly" and "designed", when we actually don't have anything to compare it to.
Opinions? Thanks in advance.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,being understood from what has been made,so that people are without excuse.

God is telling us that we should be able to come to the conclusion that We, and everything around us, in the universe, was made by the Almighty God,our creator.Thats how obvious it is, He is saying.

There is no way that everything in our universe just happened on its own.The odds against this happening by some random chance is astronomical.The way things works proves a higher intelligence,order and creation.A system of laws that govern our universe to make it work the way it does.This is not something that just happens just because.

Lets look at the earth.It has photosinthesis.A cycle of moisture producing.It works this way and never changes.The plants are designed to breath the carbon dioxide.We breath the oxygen plants produce.A cycle that was designed ,and not just randomly happened.The earth produces plentiful amounts of food for us to eat.We have seasons that only occur because of the 23.5 degree tilt the earth has,which is perfect.Without this we could not grow anything.We would have unbalanced seasons.This was designed this way.We are perfectly 93 million miles from the sun.Any further in any direction would result in either over freezing conditions, or violently hot conditions, that would ,also, result in death.

We have a protective forcefield invisible dome that burns up large rocks into small debris. This prevents harm to people and the earth.The earths inner core is a molten hot ball and spins which produces magnetic waves that repel dangerous radiation away from the earth.That way we only receive the sunlight we need without over exposure.All of this is by design.These are set laws that could not just happen by mere chance so a whole universe could work perfectly,in harmony,with each other.There is no way...

 

[Draka]

How does the child know the toy fire engine was designed?

Because when you turn it over it says "Mattel" on the bottom.

How does one know a name carved in a tree did not just happen?

It is signed/someone left their mark right on it.

Or that a house had an intelligent designer?

You can go to a City Hall and look up the records of the house to see who designed and built the house. See signatures and dates and those that accounted for every detail about the house.

Honestly your examples are rather ridiculous. What kind of person would think a plastic toy grows, a carving happens by itself, or a house grows out of the ground? However, we know how a planet can form, a moon can form, how solar systems work. We are learning more every day as well. These are natural things much like a plant grows.

Now...please show me the signature upon the universe. Initials? Paperwork filed in a hall of records with dates and signatures? No no, holy book with multiple transcriptions and interpretations will not suffice. Please provide the proof that the universe is "designed" in much the same manner of which that you keep providing examples of other things. Oh, and not just any "designer", specifically "your" version of a "designer". As there are many creation stories and gods out there to choose from. It must be "his" exact name signed somewhere.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

Give me an example of what you consider a "natural" thing.

Generally, trees, rocks, carrots, birds, pine cones, and clouds would work.

 

[RichardParker]

There is no way that everything in our universe just happened on its own.The odds against this happening by some random chance is astronomical.

Odds are demonstrably calculated, not asserted.
The same, btw, with intelligence.
So, can you
1. Proof, that the odds of the universe working or origining on its own being astronomicly small?
2. Present any evidence for intelligence that isn't a product of this natural world?

Otherwise, you are just asserting stuff.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

A child sees a toy fire engine on the sidewalk.
"Who made this fire engine?" He asks daddy.
"Why son, we have no evidence that anyone made that fire engine. We must first find a fire engine that was not designed to prove that this one was."
Child: "You talk funny, Daddy. But, who made the fire engine?"

A child walks by a fire truck.
"Daddy who made that fire truck?"
"Son how do you know that the fire truck was made?"
"Because it doesn't look like the grass and other surrounding natural stuff!"
"Good boy son. I've trained you well!"
"Yep. Now i know how to tell what is man made and what is natural by looking at the contrasting if it appears naturally or if it contrasts!"

 

[viole]

How does the child know the toy fire engine was designed? How does one know a name carved in a tree did not just happen? Or that a house had an intelligent designer? The things produced, that we see and use, have form, function, beauty, and utility. I believe it is as Romans 1:19,20 says; "because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. *For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [those who deny God] are inexcusable."

Who designed the Ebola virus, parasitic wasps or the malaria carrying mosquitos, in your opinion?

Ciao

- viole

 

[�� Saint Atheist ��]

Why are none of the creationists giving me an actual answer without dodging the question?!
Why does it always have to be like this with every single person I debate with?!!!!
*Feels rage* *rage on* *drinks tea* *rage off*

 

[Pegg]

No.
Actually, most organisms don't have any of those things.
Or do you mean inside a species? Sure, individual life-forms fallow the developmental path of their parents. And one might call that order, sure.
So what. Many things in nature have order, for which we have perfectly natural explanations. What does order in a natural system tell you, aside simply the fact that it has order?

order indicates that thought has gone into it. Order doesnt come about randomly. If i throw 100 red marbles and 100 blue marbles high into the air, they are not going to fall into two neat piles of red and blue marlbes...they are going to be scattered all over the place.

Well, there are many different ways how disorganized things can become organized.
In the case of life it is related to chemistry and biochemistry, and on a larger, prolonged scale evolution and natural selection.[/quote

If i leave my clothes in the dryer for 50 years spinning around and around, they will never come out of the dryer neatly folded.

But that seems to be what evolution would have us believe. Well i dont believe it.

Really? I can think of plenty of ways this process could be more "perfect"!
Actually, the process of reproduction is an extremly messy, and dangerous thing, which has all the marks of a patchwork of evolution. It works good enough to keep a species going, but all in all it's a terribly innefficiant and badly constructed process.
So, if we actually assumed (for no justifiable reason, but let's just play along for a moment), that life fallows a dictate from some designer, it's an extremly poorly thought out dictate.

well if you think reproduction is so bad and dangerous, dont reproduce.

 

[Pegg]

A child walks by a fire truck.
"Daddy who made that fire truck?"
"Son how do you know that the fire truck was made?"
"Because it doesn't look like the grass and other surrounding natural stuff!"
"Good boy son. I've trained you well!"
"Yep. Now i know how to tell what is man made and what is natural by looking at the contrasting if it appears naturally or if it contrasts!"

and yet a blade of grass is far more complex then a fire truck.

How could the truck require a designer and creator, but not the grass?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If i leave my clothes in the dryer for 50 years spinning around and around, they will never come out of the dryer neatly folded.

But that seems to be what evolution would have us believe. Well i dont believe it.

Indeed, this type of displayed ignorance about what evolution actually is, is often correlated with disbelief in evolution.

As I've often noted, I've yet to meet somebody who actually displays an understanding of the concepts of evolution who also rejects it.

 

[Etritonakin]

They are using circular reasoning. They need to inject design of objects we know are designed into nature in order to conclude nature is designed. However in academia we conclude an object is designed by comparing it to nature. They skip this step due to the injection of design into the argument which is supposedly proving design.

"However in academia we conclude an object is designed by comparing it to nature.


Is this actually true? I was under the impression that academia would not conclude that an object is designed unless it could identify the designer.

It seems to me that such a conclusion based on comparing an object to nature is unscientific in that it assumes -without proof -that nature could not have been designed.

It would also blind one to a design which was similar to nature -or even a subtle design change imposed upon nature which could not be differentiated from natural cause without witnessing the cause of the change.

If we conclude that life was not designed -or do not accept that life was designed -because we see no proof a designer, or because we cannot identify the designer, we cannot conclude that an object is designed by comparison to nature alone -though we may conclude that something we know to be designed -or are quite certain was designed -is in some way dissimilar to what has been observed in nature. More correctly, comparison to nature is not proof of design because nature is absolutely not designed -it is proof that WE designed something -or, at very least, a being similar to us designed something -which was dissimilar to nature.

If we find an object which is dissimilar to nature, and cannot identify the designer, we are most likely to assume the designer is human. We can identify that something dissimilar to nature was designed because it exhibits traits of a previously identified designer -not because we know that nature was not designed.

The only thing we can determine from comparing our designs to nature is that our designs suck in comparison to those we perceive to be produced by mere coincidence -and that our designs are in some way dissimilar.

The real question is......

Does design have traits which distinguish it from mere coincidence?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

and yet a blade of grass is far more complex then a fire truck.

How could the truck require a designer and creator, but not the grass?

Because design has nothing to do with complexity? How do we know an arrowhead is an arrowhead? Is it because it is just so complex that it was impossible for it to be that way?

No. It has to do with finding something that does not match the contrasting natural background. Arrowheads aren't complex. Neither is a spear or even a wheel. But the fact that they don't occur naturally is how we can determine that it is an arrowhead.

 

[Pegg]

Because design has nothing to do with complexity? How do we know an arrowhead is an arrowhead? Is it because it is just so complex that it was impossible for it to be that way?

No. It has to do with finding something that does not match the contrasting natural background. Arrowheads aren't complex. Neither is a spear or even a wheel. But the fact that they don't occur naturally is how we can determine that it is an arrowhead.

is grass really natural?

There was a time on the earth when there was no life, no grass, no trees...nothing but water.

So where is the 'naturalness' in grass if it hasnt always been here?

Is there grass on mars? Where are all the trees on Venus?

How do we even know if the definition of 'natural' is actually correct? The universe is a very harsh and uninhabitable place... we are just a tiny spot within that universe and yet here is all these living biological creatures and other living things which have not yet been found anywhere else.... what makes you think its natural?

 

[Looncall]

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,being understood from what has been made,so that people are without excuse.

God is telling us that we should be able to come to the conclusion that We, and everything around us, in the universe, was made by the Almighty God,our creator.Thats how obvious it is, He is saying.

There is no way that everything in our universe just happened on its own.The odds against this happening by some random chance is astronomical.The way things works proves a higher intelligence,order and creation.A system of laws that govern our universe to make it work the way it does.This is not something that just happens just because.

Lets look at the earth.It has photosinthesis.A cycle of moisture producing.It works this way and never changes.The plants are designed to breath the carbon dioxide.We breath the oxygen plants produce.A cycle that was designed ,and not just randomly happened.The earth produces plentiful amounts of food for us to eat.We have seasons that only occur because of the 23.5 degree tilt the earth has,which is perfect.Without this we could not grow anything.We would have unbalanced seasons.This was designed this way.We are perfectly 93 million miles from the sun.Any further in any direction would result in either over freezing conditions, or violently hot conditions, that would ,also, result in death.

We have a protective forcefield invisible dome that burns up large rocks into small debris. This prevents harm to people and the earth.The earths inner core is a molten hot ball and spins which produces magnetic waves that repel dangerous radiation away from the earth.That way we only receive the sunlight we need without over exposure.All of this is by design.These are set laws that could not just happen by mere chance so a whole universe could work perfectly,in harmony,with each other.There is no way...

All that is required is that the universe and the things in it have properties. All the rest follows. We call the study of this physics and chemistry.

Your wide-eyed ignorance is risible.

 

[Nada]

All that is required is that the universe and the things in it have properties. All the rest follows. We call the study of this physics and chemistry.

Your wide-eyed ignorance is risible.

And your social skills are excellent.Keep up the great work.

 

[RichardParker]

is grass really natural?

There was a time on the earth when there was no life, no grass, no trees...nothing but water.

So where is the 'naturalness' in grass if it hasnt always been here?

Is there grass on mars? Where are all the trees on Venus?

Wait... Is your definition of "Natural"="Something that has always been there and exists all over the universe"?
This is the weirdest definition I've ever heard!
Normally people refere to things that are "natural", when talking about things that formed simply by the natural, physical laws, without the artificial hand of an intelligence.

How do we even know if the definition of 'natural' is actually correct?

Definitions are neither "correct" nor "incorrect".
They are socially agreed upon concepts, which we attach to specific words.
You can, if you want, call the color of the sky "yellow". There is nothing that objectivly links the WORD "blue" to the color the sky has, it's just that we have agreed that this is the word we use to describe this particular color.
And in the same way, we have agreed that when we call something "naturally occuring", we mean that it origins through the natural laws, without intelligent input.
But if you want, we can call this concept ("origining through natural laws without intelligent input") "higgbudabital".
It would just make the conversation much more confusion, so I would suggest we actually stick the agreed upon definition of words.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

is grass really natural?

There was a time on the earth when there was no life, no grass, no trees...nothing but water.

So where is the 'naturalness' in grass if it hasnt always been here?

Is there grass on mars? Where are all the trees on Venus?

How do we even know if the definition of 'natural' is actually correct? The universe is a very harsh and uninhabitable place... we are just a tiny spot within that universe and yet here is all these living biological creatures and other living things which have not yet been found anywhere else.... what makes you think its natural?

There is nothing called "naturalness" in science.

The question is "does it appear all on its own in nature" or "did it require a known intellegence to design it". And how do we know if it is the latter? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST NATURALLY IN THE WORLD.

 

[Looncall]

And your social skills are excellent.Keep up the great work.

It's just that I find the "Oh, WOW! That's really, really complicated! Therefore god." argument beyond funny. I mean, how lazy can one get?

 

[Nada]

It's just that I find the "Oh, WOW! That's really, really complicated! Therefore god." argument beyond funny. I mean, how lazy can one get?

Im sorry to hear that.