German politician says: Ukraine will not win this war

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is currently happening in Ukraine is that NATO wants to fight ‘the bad guy’ down to the last Ukrainian.

No. It's Ukraine that wants to fight and they are begging NATO to help them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

NATO was founded as a military "defence" against communist and Soviet states. Source: NATO.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/declassified_139339.htm

Yes. Keyword: defence.
Read the NATO charter. There's nothing in there about attacking. The treaty is all about what happens if a member state is attacked.
The charter is a worthless piece of paper when a member state mounts an attack itself. Article 5 can only be invoked for defensive means in case of being attacked.

Why would you fear such an alliance unless you plan to attack, or desire to?

If I were Russian president, I would also be a little worried about the annual display of weapons by a hostile military alliance on my borders ("Defender").

I wouldn't if that alliance is defensive in nature, unless I want to be free to attack certain nations without having to fear having to face the entire alliance as a consequence.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Soviet Union (and thus the Cold War, which for decades was the justification for the supposed necessity of NATO) has no longer existed since 1991. There is no reason to see Russia as a renamed Soviet Union.

Right, right.... because Russia since 1991 in no way has threatened his neighbors, invaded them, engaged in sabotage, funded militia's to "stir things up" in those nations, etc....


Uhu.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A list of wars with Russia's involvement is only moderately suitable for the defence of NATO, if I may only point to Guantánamo and the Kosovo war as examples.

Kosovo? Seriously?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

NATO, under the de facto leadership of the USA, waged a war of aggression in Kosovo in 1999 in violation of international law.

For crying out loud.......................

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_48818.htm

NATO carried out the operation by mandate of the UN Security Council (resolution 1244)

This was not a "war of aggression" nor was it "in violation of international law".
It was the exact opposite of those things.

They were peacekeeping forces with UN mandate.
They did not occupy Serbia nor did they enforce a regime change.
What they did there was put an end to the ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians.

Putin is absolutely right when he points this out.

He is not. There was no UN resolution. There was no mandate. If anything, if you insist on comparing these situations, Putin takes on the role of Milosevic by comparison.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What you're failing to consider is that, very often, nations can and do start wars while setting up the circumstances in such a way as to make it look like the other side started it. Not that I'm saying that's the case here, but I think your argument basically amounts to nothing more than "Trust me, bro. You have nothing to fear." I believe it's somewhat naive to expect other countries to accept such promises on blind faith.

The country that is well known to do such things, is Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

For crying out loud.......................

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_48818.htm

NATO carried out the operation by mandate of the UN Security Council (resolution 1244)

This was not a "war of aggression" nor was it "in violation of international law".
It was the exact opposite of those things.

They were peacekeeping forces with UN mandate.
They did not occupy Serbia nor did they enforce a regime change.
What they did there was put an end to the ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians.




He is not. There was no UN resolution. There was no mandate. If anything, if you insist on comparing these situations, Putin takes on the role of Milosevic by comparison.

Perfect.
What you won't admit is that there has been an ethnic cleansing of Russian-speaking people in Donbas (but also in Odessa).

When you admit that, we can have an equal debate without bias and double standards,

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Putin actually said this: let's acknowledge that Kosovo deserved independence from Serbia, and I accept the UN resolution.
But Donbas too deserves independence from Kiev.

But the banking sewer that lives on both shores of the Atlantic believes in double standards.
So...whatever the NATO does is sacred.
Whatever Russia does is illegal, because Russia is nothing, whereas NATO is God.

They need to be cured.

For the upteenth time....
Kosovo was a UN operation, merely carried out by NATO.

These situations are not comparable at all.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Politics .. they will do what appears to be in their interests .. just like "the west".

It's because they understand how Russia is a threat to their sovereignty.
Being a member of NATO provides them with security from that threat.

I'm not saying that I support the Russian regime .. I don't.
..but neither do I support the US regime .. I'm the "piggy in the middle", like Ukrainians.

Ukrainians are no "piggy in the middle". They are the victim of a war of aggression and they are begging the western world for help.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Perfect.
What you won't admit is that there has been an ethnic cleansing of Russian-speaking people in Donbas (but also in Odessa).

Because there wasn't. Instead, there were Russian-funded and Russian-lead armed militias raging havoc, seizing towns and government buildings, to which Ukraine responded by fighting them. As any country would.

The "ethnic cleansing" nonsense is just Russian propaganda bs.

When you admit that, we can have an equal debate without bias and double standards,

There is nothing to admit.

 

[Estro Felino]

For the upteenth time....
Kosovo was a UN operation, merely carried out by NATO.

UN's credibility is below the zero, because of its impudent doublestandardism.

These situations are not comparable at all.

In my language it's called doublestandardism.

I don't know if there is en equivalent in Flemish...I doubt it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Because there wasn't. Instead, there were Russian-funded and Russian-lead armed militias raging havoc, seizing towns and government buildings, to which Ukraine responded by fighting them. As any country would.

The "ethnic cleansing" nonsense is just Russian propaganda bs.

Perfect. You admit a half-truth then.
You admit that there were separatists taking over governmental buildings and that Kiev responded with fire.
But you won't admit that that fire targeted civilians too.
That is genocide. Ethnic cleansing.

There is nothing to admit.

If I remained 7 hours with you in a room...after questioning and questioning, I would make you admit that, eventually.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

NATO carried out the operation by mandate of the UN Security Council (resolution 1244)

Resolution 1244 came after the NATO bombing. So no, they did not.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

The country that is well known to do such things, is Russia.

You misspelled “US”.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

because Russia since 1991 in no way has threatened his neighbors, invaded them, engaged in sabotage, funded militia's to "stir things up" in those nations, etc....

Learning from the best.

United States involvement in regime change - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So the USA are the Soviet Union too?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You admit that there were separatists taking over governmental buildings and that Kiev responded with fire.

And rightly so. That's what you do when armed militia's create havoc in your streets.
It's also why Germany arrested those right-wingers who were still in the planning stage.

But you won't admit that that fire targeted civilians too.
That is genocide. Ethnic cleansing.

First, even if that were true - that is neither genocide nor ethnic cleansing. You might want to look up what those things actually are.
Second, evidence please.

It seems you have been swallowing the kool'aid from russia as if it were candy.
You might want to look into what these so-called "separatists" actually did in donbas. How they treated civilians there.
Seems like you have no clue at all.

If I remained 7 hours with you in a room...after questioning and questioning, I would make you admit that, eventually.

How tough you are. What are you, like 10 years old? Such juvenile thrash talk.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Resolution 1244 came after the NATO bombing. So no, they did not.

Yeah, guess which country voted against it at first. Russia. Ironic, isn't it? They were against it then, yet have no qualms about pointing to it now to supposedly justify their own behavior by pretending it's the same situation.

Not much later, the dropped their support for Milosevic and the many resolutions against Milosevic went through and he got indicted for crimes against humanity for ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Learning from the best.

United States involvement in regime change - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So the USA are the Soviet Union too?

The topic is Russia-Ukraine. Why do you have this obsessive need to engage in all this what-about-ism constantly?

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

Yeah, guess which country voted against it at first. Russia. Ironic, isn't it?

“It was not a violation of international law! There was a resolution!”
“The resolution came later, so it was a violation of international law.”
“But Russia was against the resolution!”

 

[Estro Felino]

And rightly so. That's what you do when armed militia's create havoc in your streets.
It's also why Germany arrested those right-wingers who were still in the planning stage.





First, even if that were true - that is neither genocide nor ethnic cleansing. You might want to look up what those things actually are.
Second, evidence please.

It seems you have been swallowing the kool'aid from russia as if it were candy.
You might want to look into what these so-called "separatists" actually did in donbas. How they treated civilians there.
Seems like you have no clue at all.

Indeed.
You believed the Government of Kiev and I believe the Ukrainian refugees who fled to Italy because they were persecuted in Ukraine.
Civilians, not militias.

How tough you are. What are you, like 10 years old? Such juvenile thrash talk.

I would be curious to debate with you.
You know...it would be nice if we could arrange one of those YouTube debates via webcam...and post it on Youtube.

So you can also re-listen to you.
And people will re-listen to me.
Let me know...