Global Warming | Fact or Fiction?

[painted wolf]

I think a world tax would be impossible to pass and enforce.... instead we need a treaty to set global carbon caps and let nations work out the details of how to reach those goals on their own.

wa:do

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Does UNCED have some kind of global environmental regulatory and banking systems?

 

[work in progress]

I like the idea, but carbon taxes are, eventually, just another tax on the poor.

No more than sales taxes, and virtually flat taxes on investment income today. If it's about incentives and penalties -- a big chunk of the reason why the oil lobby claims that they are still the cheapest fuel is because the environment costs of fossil fuels are socialized as a burden for everyone to carry, while they receive the bulk of the tax incentives (generous tax incentives for drilling, and are even allowed to amortize the wells through capital cost allowances -- like something they played no role in creating is equivalent to a piece of factory machinery)

Where would the tax money go? This is an international tax right?

I was considering carbon taxes as the method for federal and local governments to incentivize a shift to clean energy sources. As pointed out previously, international treaties would apply carbon caps to each nation and penalize those who do not meet their goals through other forms of leveraging, like trade restrictions. We don't have a world government, or international taxes, so an international tax is impossible.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

No more than sales taxes, and virtually flat taxes on investment income today. If it's about incentives and penalties -- a big chunk of the reason why the oil lobby claims that they are still the cheapest fuel is because the environment costs of fossil fuels are socialized as a burden for everyone to carry, while they receive the bulk of the tax incentives (generous tax incentives for drilling, and are even allowed to amortize the wells through capital cost allowances -- like something they played no role in creating is equivalent to a piece of factory machinery)

How would government, as in this case, spend the revenues created by this flat tax? I imagine regulating cost would account for a lion share.

I was considering carbon taxes as the method for federal and local governments to incentivize a shift to clean energy sources. As pointed out previously, international treaties would apply carbon caps to each nation and penalize those who do not meet their goals through other forms of leveraging, like trade restrictions. We don't have a world government, or international taxes, so an international tax is impossible.

Who would oversee the trade restrictions if a country was non-compliant with its caps? A committee of the UN perhaps? i don't want a one world government, but it looks like there is a version of one going on and the environment movement is it's catalyst. Are you familiar with UNCED? and its ties to the Rockefellers?

 

[work in progress]

How would government, as in this case, spend the revenues created by this flat tax? I imagine regulating cost would account for a lion share.

Any energy subsidies should go towards clean energy, rather than carbon-intensive sources. The way the subsidy setups work, the oil companies in Canada are getting the biggest return from setting up more tar sands extractions. The tar sands in Northern Alberta, cover an area larger than England, and just slightly less than the state of Florida. The tar sands operations are the fastest growing source of carbon emissions in Canada. And the projects are an ecological nightmare for Alberta -- more than a billion gallons of effluent leak from waste water ponds every year; two to four gallons of water have to be used to create a barrel of low grade oil from the extracted bitumen; more than 230 sq. miles of northern forests have been destroyed as a result of the mining and extraction process. And as long as I'm on the subject: why do Albertans support an energy development that will destroy most of the northern half of their province by the time it's over? Likely because most of the people live south of the tar sands areas, and are looking at the money spilling over from the oil companies....and the only people who are presently directly affected by the land and water pollution -- the Aboriginals (Indians) are poor, and live in isolated communities far from the major cities.

I wasn't intending to go on a rant about the tar sands extraction industries, but the only reason why all of the oil companies are lining up to take part in this ecological nightmare is because they don't have to factor in the environmental costs that are offloaded on to society at large.

Who would oversee the trade restrictions if a country was non-compliant with its caps? A committee of the UN perhaps? i don't want a one world government, but it looks like there is a version of one going on and the environment movement is it's catalyst. Are you familiar with UNCED? and its ties to the Rockefellers?

I'll take the U.N. and one world government over extinction! Right now, the wealthiest governments in the West have been the main reasons why it has been impossible to set up a workable carbon reduction system.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I actually agree that monetizing environmentalism and trying to solve the emissions problem with capitalism is a recipe for disaster.

We agree.:clap

 

[painted wolf]

The carbon cap program would have to work like the global treaty to reduce ozone depleting chemicals. It wasn't perfect, but it has had a significantly positive impact on the environment.

What we can't have is a system full of loopholes like the treaty to stop whaling that allows the Japanese to kill more whales today than it did before the treaty.

wa:do

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Now there's an anti-wind power movie. I didn't realise there was that much opposition to wind power.

[youtube]cBYjZG8O6qE[/youtube]
Windfall - Official Trailer - YouTube

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Now there's an anti-wind power movie. I didn't realise there was that much opposition to wind power.

[youtube]cBYjZG8O6qE[/youtube]
Windfall - Official Trailer - YouTube

That's the first time I've heard of this. The scary windmills in the wind/dust storm were terrific.

 

[Alceste]

There are a lot of problems with wind farms. To mention a few, the best places for wind farms are often also the migration pathways for many bird species, which causes a small bloodbath twice a year. They're also prone to wear and tear that comes pretty close to eliminating any economic benefit gained by installing them. They also need to be rotating at a fairly narrow range of speeds to produce power. I'm not sure I remember all of that correctly, but it's from The Vanishing Face of Gaia.

I prefer solar, solar thermal, hydro (in very narrow circumstances), tidal and geothermal solutions to wind power. That said, my off grid dream home will have a small wind turbine to supplement solar power, connected to a bank of batteries, with a generator as a last resort.

 

[work in progress]

There are a lot of problems with wind farms. To mention a few, the best places for wind farms are often also the migration pathways for many bird species, which causes a small bloodbath twice a year. They're also prone to wear and tear that comes pretty close to eliminating any economic benefit gained by installing them. They also need to be rotating at a fairly narrow range of speeds to produce power.

There is also the issue of rare earth elements that are needed to produce today's high efficiency turbines, generators and solar panels also. That's why I take a dim view to green capitalism solutions that advocate building enough of them to replace all of the present generating capacity. The future is going to require a different kind of economy not based on the creation of impulsive consumer demand.

I'm not sure I remember all of that correctly, but it's from The Vanishing Face of Gaia.

James Lovelock is in his 90's, E.O. Wilson is over 80, and they are still the two scientists who provide the most complete, unvarnished analysis of what this world is headed for in the coming decades. Two old guys who certainly aren't stuck in their ways, and keep developing their work with new information.

I prefer solar, solar thermal, hydro (in very narrow circumstances), tidal and geothermal solutions to wind power. That said, my off grid dream home will have a small wind turbine to supplement solar power, connected to a bank of batteries, with a generator as a last resort.

If we make it, the future could look a lot like a high tech update of medieval societies -- small villages and towns instead of large cities, surrounded by farmland that produces most of their needed food supplies. Imports would go back to the traditional pattern of products that are very high value and impossible to make or produce locally. The bulk of the energy the modern economy burns is just to move crap from central locations all over the world. And, after cheap oil is gone, there is no future for commercial air travel....which would be a bonus, considering the gross environmental impacts of having the privilege of being able to fly across the country in a few hours. That convenience will not be available for much longer.

 

[Alceste]

There is also the issue of rare earth elements that are needed to produce today's high efficiency turbines, generators and solar panels also. That's why I take a dim view to green capitalism solutions that advocate building enough of them to replace all of the present generating capacity. The future is going to require a different kind of economy not based on the creation of impulsive consumer demand.


James Lovelock is in his 90's, E.O. Wilson is over 80, and they are still the two scientists who provide the most complete, unvarnished analysis of what this world is headed for in the coming decades. Two old guys who certainly aren't stuck in their ways, and keep developing their work with new information.


If we make it, the future could look a lot like a high tech update of medieval societies -- small villages and towns instead of large cities, surrounded by farmland that produces most of their needed food supplies. Imports would go back to the traditional pattern of products that are very high value and impossible to make or produce locally. The bulk of the energy the modern economy burns is just to move crap from central locations all over the world. And, after cheap oil is gone, there is no future for commercial air travel....which would be a bonus, considering the gross environmental impacts of having the privilege of being able to fly across the country in a few hours. That convenience will not be available for much longer.

That's pretty much the type of future we can foresee. We are trying to meet it head on. We moved to a community where permaculture is well established already. I get such satisfaction eating my own vegetables, baking my own bread, sharing freshly gathered oysters and clams with my friends and neighbors. I am trying to learn to fish but it's harder than it looks.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

That's pretty much the type of future we can foresee. We are trying to meet it head on. We moved to a community where permaculture is well established already. I get such satisfaction eating my own vegetables, baking my own bread, sharing freshly gathered oysters and clams with my friends and neighbors. I am trying to learn to fish but it's harder than it looks.

I'm thinking of a vegie garden next season now that I live somewhere with the room.

Oysters, blech! Can't handle them, they're just a big stomach. I don't even like them fried and I'll eat almost anything deep fried.

The last time I went fishing was the best trip ever. I cut the hook off of the line and left just the weight and the bobber. Through it out and cracked up a beer. Kicked back and enjoyed the day watching that bobber peacefully float around. I had a nice relaxing day with no work at the end of it. The perfect fishing trip.

 

[work in progress]

I'm thinking of a vegie garden next season now that I live somewhere with the room.

Oysters, blech! Can't handle them, they're just a big stomach. I don't even like them fried and I'll eat almost anything deep fried.

The last time I went fishing was the best trip ever. I cut the hook off of the line and left just the weight and the bobber. Through it out and cracked up a beer. Kicked back and enjoyed the day watching that bobber peacefully float around. I had a nice relaxing day with no work at the end of it. The perfect fishing trip.

Where you are living, I wouldn't fish for anything - especially shellfish, for the next 50 years.

 

[Alceste]

I'm thinking of a vegie garden next season now that I live somewhere with the room.

Oysters, blech! Can't handle them, they're just a big stomach. I don't even like them fried and I'll eat almost anything deep fried.

The last time I went fishing was the best trip ever. I cut the hook off of the line and left just the weight and the bobber. Through it out and cracked up a beer. Kicked back and enjoyed the day watching that bobber peacefully float around. I had a nice relaxing day with no work at the end of it. The perfect fishing trip.

Ha, I think you missed the point...

 

[painted wolf]

That's pretty much the type of future we can foresee. We are trying to meet it head on. We moved to a community where permaculture is well established already. I get such satisfaction eating my own vegetables, baking my own bread, sharing freshly gathered oysters and clams with my friends and neighbors. I am trying to learn to fish but it's harder than it looks.

I'd be careful of mercury... We can't eat the fish up here more than once a month or so due to it coming up from the coal plants down south.

Have you considered small scale aquaponics? Lots of fish can be raised in conjunction with crops. Talapia, catfish, trout.... the fish provide nutrients to the plants and the plants help filter the water.
[youtube]VBspR2p0YYM[/youtube]
Backyard aquaponics: DIY system to farm fish with vegetables - YouTube

wa:do

 

[Jeremy Mason]

We can't eat the fish up here more than once a month or so due to it coming up from the coal plants down south.

WHAT! Where do you live?

Have you considered small scale aquaponics? Lots of fish can be raised in conjunction with crops. Talapia, catfish, trout.... the fish provide nutrients to the plants and the plants help filter the water.

I love this idea. :clap

 

[Alceste]

I'd be careful of mercury... We can't eat the fish up here more than once a month or so due to it coming up from the coal plants down south.

Have you considered small scale aquaponics? Lots of fish can be raised in conjunction with crops. Talapia, catfish, trout.... the fish provide nutrients to the plants and the plants help filter the water.
[youtube]VBspR2p0YYM[/youtube]
Backyard aquaponics: DIY system to farm fish with vegetables - YouTube

wa:do

That is awesome. I read about a similar system on a larger scale in the End of Food, but out was in japan. Didn't think you could pull it off here. I can totally see myself doing that.

OTOH, the water here is pretty good too. It's a rainforest with very little industry. The water we drink (and fish in) flows through pretty much nothing but wilderness uninterrupted from the source.

I can still see myself doing something like that though, maybe minus the automation. I'm not that smart!

 

[painted wolf]

WHAT! Where do you live?

New Hampshire, though the consumption rules hold for essentially, the entire east coast.
The once a month rules hold for pregnant women and children under 7 eating freshwater fish... 8 oz a month for pregnant women and 4 oz for children.
Fish Consumption Guidelines | New Hampshire Freshwater Fishing Digest | eRegulations.com

Some lakes you can't eat from at all if you are pregnant or a child.

I tend to stick to the pregnant and child restrictions... as I have a young child. Plus, I tend to stick to the strictest guidelines when it comes to environmental toxins.

Since my state makes most of it's living off our natural heritage we try to be as on top of issues like pollution as possible. Our Fish and Game department is very upfront about environmental issues.

I love this idea. :clap

Yeah, I really want to incorporate this type of set up in my tiny farm when we have the chance to actually get some land.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

That is awesome. I read about a similar system on a larger scale in the End of Food, but out was in japan. Didn't think you could pull it off here. I can totally see myself doing that.

OTOH, the water here is pretty good too. It's a rainforest with very little industry. The water we drink (and fish in) flows through pretty much nothing but wilderness uninterrupted from the source.

I can still see myself doing something like that though, maybe minus the automation. I'm not that smart!

It's where the rain clouds are coming from that is the problem. Most of the mercury that pollutes our lakes comes hundreds of miles away in the southern USA and is carried up by the jet stream. Pollution from China can reach the West Coast of North America... and the highest levels of mercury are found in the Arctic and Antarctic food chains... as far from industry as you can get.

Please make sure to check before you assume it's pristine.

wa:do