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Global Warming | Fact or Fiction?

How do you feel about Global Warming?

  • Global Warming is a myth and the climate will stabilize soon.

    Votes: 4 3.4%
  • Global Warming is happening but Humanity has nothing to do with it.

    Votes: 8 6.9%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is partly to blame.

    Votes: 41 35.3%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is mostly to blame.

    Votes: 52 44.8%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is the only cause.

    Votes: 8 6.9%
  • Don’t know, don’t care.

    Votes: 3 2.6%

  • Total voters
    116

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
A probably off-topic question: you've been posting links to things like press-releases for some time (given that I participated in this thread shortly after joining the forums, and it had been around long before me). How do you decide (or find) the particular links you post? It seems as if you receive regular updates or check particular sources, such that when something new is released you post it here, but I am curious what exactly the process is (if you don't mind my asking). Thanks.

Well, for my news sources I tend to browse Google News regularly. I find that gives me a well rounded selection. The science category generally has interesting Environmental articles and I post any that seem interesting here to keep the thread active. We have had some very good discussions in this thread and I have learned a lot from the more scientific minded of our members, although some of that knowledge is a bit scary. I do try to be objective about what I post and avoid the more sensationalists articles unless they look particularly entertaining.

Hope that answers your question. :)
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Is this what's going to happen to us?

Why the Maya Fell: Climate Change, Conflict—And a Trip to the Beach?

Every civilization has its rise and fall. But no culture has fallen quite like the Maya Empire, seemingly swallowed by the jungle after centuries of urban, cultural, intellectual, and agricultural evolution.

What went wrong? The latest discoveries point not to a cataclysmic eruption, quake, or plague but rather to climate change. And faced with the fallout, one expert says, the Maya may have packed up and gone to the beach.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Probably not... only because our culture is spread across way more biomes than they were.
Ironically rain forests are also a particularly unproductive for any agriculture due to very poor and depleted soils. Any nutrients from decaying matter never make it into the soil but are almost immediately cycled back into the living system. Thus the whole system is very vulnerable to crashing.

The reason the grasslands of the Midwest have been so very productive is, in part, due to the fact that the dead grass, animals and feces have nowhere else to go but into the soil. Our agricultural methods are also far advanced with less loss of topsoil and more efficient use of water. (not that we can't improve more on these areas)

Now... will we have major problems with our food production and basic survival in several parts of the nation... yes. But we have much more flexibility in shifting our patterns of agriculture and population.

Other nations won't be so lucky. India for example despite the green revolution is still very poor at managing topsoil loss and water management.

wa:do
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Probably not...

I thought one of the worries was that the agricultural producing states may be headed towards desert or at least more arid conditions? With Canada becoming warmer and possibly more productive could we see migrations in that direction? I know it isn't an exact parallel but I thought there might be a few similarities.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I thought one of the worries was that the agricultural producing states may be headed towards desert or at least more arid conditions? With Canada becoming warmer and possibly more productive could we see migrations in that direction? I know it isn't an exact parallel but I thought there might be a few similarities.

The trouble is that most of Canada is a big rock. If we are going to grow things on the warming Canadian shield we will have to build up the soil first, and find a way to mitigate the lack of light in the early spring and fall. Most of the world's arable land that doesn't have cities on it is already being used to produce food, so expansion isn't really an option, unless we're talking about intensive urban gardening, like the UK did in the second world war - tearing up our lawns and soccer fields and planting carrots and turnips. Also, growing food outdoors requires a very predictable climate. The timing is important, and the moisture content of the soil needs to be kept between "sopping wet" and "bone dry" or plants can not thrive. Warming is causing weather patterns to become more difficult to predict, and we are getting extremes of drought or root-rotting, endless wetness pretty much everywhere we grow food.

I think Canada is in a pretty good position compared to the rest of the world, since we have the resources and elbow room to adapt quickly if necessary, but we're still looking at declining food production, just like everybody else.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Looks like indoor gardening on a massive scale may end up being the answer.

Hydroponics-Gardening.jpg
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So can any one tell me where the whole tipping point is ? When will we reach the point of no return ?
Two things:

1) There is for the most part only one way in which it makes sense to talk about points of no return. And not just for the trivial reason (arrow of time), but because a fundamental, widespread assumption seems to be that the life on earth and the various non-living external and internal dynamics which are a part of or affect this planet, are generally stable. Or even that humans have disrupted some delicate balance, and that if we haven't already "unbalanced" it already so much that at best we can only hope to lessen the inevitable doom, we will reach that point soon. Regardless of the very real (and numerous) ways in which humans have polluted, harmed, altered, and so on ecological systems, the climate, and even individual species, there was never a balance, there isn't now, and the only way there will be one is probably because the sun exploded.

2) That said, this planet is itself a dynamical system, and within it a innumerable other such systems. By "dyanamical" I mean what is usually called "chaotic" (thanks largely to the popularity of Gleick's book on "Chaos" theory). In general, although these systems show varying degrees of randomness and unpredictability, they also tend to stay within a range of variation. Another defining property, though, is their sensitivity to changes in parameters which goven the system. Simple population models are often the best way to explain this.

Imagine a simple ecosystem in which we have plants, an kind of animal which eats the plants, and a predator which eats that animal. The more food which grows, the more herbivore has to eat, which means there will tend to be more. However, as the number of these herbivores grows, two things happen: 1) more plants get eaten and 2) the carnivores have more food. Which means that there will be less food for this increased herbivore population, and the additional food will tend to increase the number of carnivores.

What happens next? It could be that the carnivores and the lack of food for the herbivores results in a decline in their numbers, accompanied by a decline in carnivores, and the plants start increasing again.

In other words, even in this incredibly simplistic model, there isn't any "balance" per se, only a range in which all three groups will continue to increase and decrease. However, it is possible the system to go outside of that range. For example, it could be that an increase in plant food leads to an increase in herbivores and then carnivores, but by the time the carnivores have eaten enough herbivore for the plants to begin to increase again, there are too many carnivores. So although the carnivores don't have enough food to continue to increase, their population is so great that the increase in plant food and in herbivores isn't fast enough to compared to the decrease in carnivores. And the carnivores kill off all of their food supply, die, and we have only plants.

The climate system is one of the most complicated systems around, filled with incredibly complex internal and external subsystems which alter its dynamics. Which means that there are a constant number of "tipping points" which are constantly being reached. It also means that looking for a specific "tipping point" in terms of the effect of anthropogenic co2 emissions isn't exactly meaningful. Not just because we don't know what it might be, but because it doesn't exist. That is, there are certainly points at which these emissions will alter some number of other systems in a way that ends up changing the way they "evolve" outside some previous "normal" range, and there are certainly points at which we can safely say we've caused problems for a vast number of ecosystems, species, and ourseleves. However, there isn't really any point at which we know the effects will be y given x amount of atmospheric anthropogenic carbon.
 

Absolute Zero

fon memories
Two things:

1) There is for the most part only one way in which it makes sense to talk about points of no return. And not just for the trivial reason (arrow of time), but because a fundamental, widespread assumption seems to be that the life on earth and the various non-living external and internal dynamics which are a part of or affect this planet, are generally stable. Or even that humans have disrupted some delicate balance, and that if we haven't already "unbalanced" it already so much that at best we can only hope to lessen the inevitable doom, we will reach that point soon. Regardless of the very real (and numerous) ways in which humans have polluted, harmed, altered, and so on ecological systems, the climate, and even individual species, there was never a balance, there isn't now, and the only way there will be one is probably because the sun exploded.

2) That said, this planet is itself a dynamical system, and within it a innumerable other such systems. By "dyanamical" I mean what is usually called "chaotic" (thanks largely to the popularity of Gleick's book on "Chaos" theory). In general, although these systems show varying degrees of randomness and unpredictability, they also tend to stay within a range of variation. Another defining property, though, is their sensitivity to changes in parameters which goven the system. Simple population models are often the best way to explain this.

Imagine a simple ecosystem in which we have plants, an kind of animal which eats the plants, and a predator which eats that animal. The more food which grows, the more herbivore has to eat, which means there will tend to be more. However, as the number of these herbivores grows, two things happen: 1) more plants get eaten and 2) the carnivores have more food. Which means that there will be less food for this increased herbivore population, and the additional food will tend to increase the number of carnivores.

What happens next? It could be that the carnivores and the lack of food for the herbivores results in a decline in their numbers, accompanied by a decline in carnivores, and the plants start increasing again.

In other words, even in this incredibly simplistic model, there isn't any "balance" per se, only a range in which all three groups will continue to increase and decrease. However, it is possible the system to go outside of that range. For example, it could be that an increase in plant food leads to an increase in herbivores and then carnivores, but by the time the carnivores have eaten enough herbivore for the plants to begin to increase again, there are too many carnivores. So although the carnivores don't have enough food to continue to increase, their population is so great that the increase in plant food and in herbivores isn't fast enough to compared to the decrease in carnivores. And the carnivores kill off all of their food supply, die, and we have only plants.

The climate system is one of the most complicated systems around, filled with incredibly complex internal and external subsystems which alter its dynamics. Which means that there are a constant number of "tipping points" which are constantly being reached. It also means that looking for a specific "tipping point" in terms of the effect of anthropogenic co2 emissions isn't exactly meaningful. Not just because we don't know what it might be, but because it doesn't exist. That is, there are certainly points at which these emissions will alter some number of other systems in a way that ends up changing the way they "evolve" outside some previous "normal" range, and there are certainly points at which we can safely say we've caused problems for a vast number of ecosystems, species, and ourseleves. However, there isn't really any point at which we know the effects will be y given x amount of atmospheric anthropogenic carbon.
Thank you very much
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I thought one of the worries was that the agricultural producing states may be headed towards desert or at least more arid conditions? With Canada becoming warmer and possibly more productive could we see migrations in that direction? I know it isn't an exact parallel but I thought there might be a few similarities.
Well, most of our productive agriculture is already done in places that, if not outright desert, are pretty nearly there.
Much of California for example... the farms are not reliant on local rain but on water delivered via canals.

The more important question is... will we learn to better manage out water to keep our agriculture and our cities from competing each other out of existence.

However, agriculture can still be done in other places in the nation. There is plenty of excellent farmland in the North Eastern USA... and there are people working to preserve it from being converted to suburbs. (in part as insurance against desertification out west)

If you want an interesting and entertaining read about our relationship and problems with water I would suggest Charles Fishman's excellent book The Big Thirst: the secret life and turbulent future of water.

wa:do
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Cool, I'll look into that one. The documentary Life After People went into the fact that southern California is in reality a desert and once the water stops flowing the desert will return.
 
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