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Global Warming | Fact or Fiction?

How do you feel about Global Warming?

  • Global Warming is a myth and the climate will stabilize soon.

    Votes: 4 3.4%
  • Global Warming is happening but Humanity has nothing to do with it.

    Votes: 8 6.9%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is partly to blame.

    Votes: 41 35.3%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is mostly to blame.

    Votes: 52 44.8%
  • Global Warming is happening and Humanity is the only cause.

    Votes: 8 6.9%
  • Don’t know, don’t care.

    Votes: 3 2.6%

  • Total voters
    116

Alceste

Vagabond
Your moving the goal posts here. I am playing nice. Do I really deserve this much sarcasm?

You make it so inviting Alceste as long as it is wine and not kool-aid. :p

In real life, I could see us becoming good friends.

Here is the thing, our area runs on coal. Our jobs and electricity depend on cheap energy. Factories that might be tempted to move rely on this cheap resource.

Yes, I know coal is poison, but what does it matter if we burn it or China does?

Do you really want me to stop eating beef and raising my cows that fart?

This is me "playing nice". :D You should see me crabby.

I am only commenting on the attitude that when two opposing narratives exist the truth must lie somewhere in the middle. I don't subscribe to that philosophy. I believe there are facts, and that careful empirical study can illuminate them for us despite all our cognitive frailties. I accept that such studies are best conducted by trained scientists who are respected in their field. IOW, if all the scientists in a given field are in agreement and my grasp of the facts in question differs from theirs, I adjust my opinion accordingly.

Any claim that sits in the gray area between "true" and "untrue" is still untrue.

Anyway, to answer your question I of course think everybody should stop burning coal ASAP, including the US and China, and as I've said already, the "you first" game both those states and many others, including mine, are playing belongs in a preschool playground. It's outrageous public policy considering what is at stake.

Also, you might want to switch to rabbits and chickens. Fewer inputs, tastier meat. :D
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Your moving the goal posts here. I am playing nice. Do I really deserve this much sarcasm?

You make it so inviting Alceste as long as it is wine and not kool-aid. :p

In real life, I could see us becoming good friends.

Here is the thing, our area runs on coal. Our jobs and electricity depend on cheap energy. Factories that might be tempted to move rely on this cheap resource.

Yes, I know coal is poison, but what does it matter if we burn it or China does?

Do you really want me to stop eating beef and raising my cows that fart?
The problem is your (Southern States) burning coal kills our (New England) economy and ecology... China's burning coal doesn't.
You export your poison to us and we don't have any say in it. But our trees die, our fish are poisoned and our economy suffers.
(if for no other reason that we need healthy trees to power our biomass power plants.)

I'm not saying we need to totally stop using coal btw... that's unrealistic. But you guys do have an immediate negative impact on fellow Americans by using it in large amounts with little restrictions.

When you total the actual costs of coal (including health and environmental damage) you see that Solar and Wind can just as cheap as coal. And solar is quickly getting there even without it.

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
How do you feel about Nuclear as a replacement for coal?
I don't know, I'm torn.

You are replacing one non-renewable with another... and while generally safe, when something goes wrong it's amazingly bad with the potential for devastation.
I like what I've been hearing about pebble bed reactors and modular "mini" reactors, but I've been hearing the same things for decades now, so I'm a little skeptical. :shrug:

I currently live between two nuclear power plants, Yankee(within the evacuation zone) and Seabrook, and both have had ongoing safety issues. And the owners of both have been caught trying to minimize the problems in the press. It's generating a lot of ill will among the people living next to them.

Plants grow old quickly and need a lot of very expensive maintenance, reducing their profitability. It seems the natural tendency is to ignore or minimize the problems that creep up until something more dangerous forces action.

wa:do
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Plants grow old quickly and need a lot of very expensive maintenance, reducing their profitability. It seems the natural tendency is to ignore or minimize the problems that creep up until something more dangerous forces action.

wa:do

I've done some construction work in Nuclear Power plants, I was at the first plant to find the holes in the reactor heads and worked for the company doing the replacement. One thing I can tell you, a Nuclear Power plant is only as good as its owners. I've seen old plants that were well maintained and safe, and I've seen others that I wouldn't live next to for millions of dollars. I do think this is one area that the government does a pretty good job of regulating though. I have to admit power plants in developing nations give me the heepie jeebies.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I've done some construction work in Nuclear Power plants, I was at the first plant to find the holes in the reactor heads and worked for the company doing the replacement. One thing I can tell you, a Nuclear Power plant is only as good as its owners. I've seen old plants that were well maintained and safe, and I've seen others that I wouldn't live next to for millions of dollars. I do think this is one area that the government does a pretty good job of regulating though. I have to admit power plants in developing nations give me the heepie jeebies.
I agree... I must admit I prefer power sources that won't kill/irradiate the locals if the owner is shady or the government lax.

If one of our windmills catastrophically fails, people are inconvenienced at worst. It can be replaced quickly at low cost.

wa:do
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Didn't the planet survive those mass extinctions? Didn't life return to normal? Killing the planet means ALL life is gone.
That is a pretty low bar to set on this subject!

For what it's worth, some paleontologists who have specialized in the Big One -- the Permian/Triassic Extinction 250 million years ago (Peter D. Ward - Under A Green Sky 2007) tell us that it got pretty damn close to destroying all complex, multicellular life back then. If you are demanding that every bacteria and virus be incinerated also, that's an absurd standard to uphold.

I mentioned on another thread that the journey of life on Earth from the first one-celled animals to the first multicellular life took 2 billion years. That indicates that complex life is not as adaptable to extreme environments. If we look at the natural geologic changes that will occur over the next couple of billion years (as well as the Sun) if such a catastrophic extinction occurred today, there would be no re-building; and Earth would remain an abode for bacteria until it was absorbed by a Sun turning into a red giant star in the distant future.

At the end of the Permian...before disaster struck...life was becoming increasingly complex and diversified. Our ancestors - referred to as mammal-like reptiles (Synapsids), mostly went extinct, and we wouldn't be hear to discuss it if they were all wiped out!

After the long term volcanic activity, caused by plate tectonics started to recede, the oceans and the atmosphere were able to recover and allow life to flourish again. The first out of the blocks, were the ancestors of the Dinosaurs, which became the dominant species for over 180 million years. Our ancestors - the mammals, were there all through the Age Of Reptiles, but had to eke out an existence mostly underground in the shadows, as the Dinosaurs dominated all of the ecological niches on the planet.

And then, as we are all well aware now, an extinction 63 million years ago ended the Dinosaur's reign and allowed the Mammals to take over the planet and diversify, and become the dominant group on animals on the planet.

The first thing that comes to mind after a brief snapshot look at previous extinctions (there were other, smaller extinctions within those five) is 'what if the P/T Extinction never happened? Our ancestors were doing pretty well 250 million years ago, before the Dinosaurs took over and disappeared. The Mesozoic Eras -- Age of Dinosaurs, can be viewed as an interruption of what could have been -- some sort of intelligent mammal species with opposable thumbs creating a civilization hundreds of millions of years ago!

For me, this is nail in the coffin for concepts of intelligent design, progressive evolution, or any cavalier notion about planetary extinctions being regular and acceptable events in Earth's history.


I did not say that militant environmentalists are the problem, I said they confuse the issue by exaggerating the problems with pseudofacts and out right lies. This makes them no better than the head stuck in the sand types who ignore the good science just because some fanatic was caught in a lie. My point is keep a cool head and stick to the real facts. In other words, Moderates Rule! heh heh.
No, I would say that moderates don't rule under circumstances that call for drastic action as quickly as possible! We are heading into a perfect storm of looming disasters:
world agricultural production has plateaued and is receding right at a time when the population has been allowed to hit 7 billion and will continue to increase further....if it is able to...not likely though for a number of reasons! The two major roadblocks to increasing population are a decline in fresh water availability across most of the world, especially in the temperate and tropical zones with the highest populations; and the loss of topsoil from modern intensive agriculture.

We have used up over half of the Earth's petroleum reserves that were in the ground (90% has been used in just the last 50 years), leaving a global economy that continues to be based on oil to dig deeper or refine the dirtiest, most carbon-intensive oil reserves (tar sands and shales)....bad news for that energy-intensive system of agriculture we have developed over the last 50 years, which is the only reason why the Earth's population has managed to reach present levels in the first place.

There is even a threat to civilization as we know it, being presented by a steady decline in ore grades, as well as the increasingly lucrative rare-earth minerals. One of the great undiscussed subjects today is that iron, copper, silver, gold, you name it -- every metal that is used for making stuff is in decline -- which means that more digging and refining is needed to get the same amount of ore from the rocks, and adding more energy, time and labour to the process.

Mines do not all of a sudden run out of ores or minerals. As with oil, the percentage of metal keeps declining as the digging continues, until it reaches a point where the costs of extraction outweigh the benefits, and the mine becomes obsolete. As metal prices continue to increase, the mines keep digging further, using more energy for extraction and refining.

There are other looming problems threatening the size of present world population, as well as our modern, high energy and resource intensive way of life, but this will do for now. If I believed that there were "moderate" ways to get out of a looming disaster, I would be all for them! But, I don't see any way forward as long as we are living the way we are right now.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
That is a pretty low bar to set on this subject!

For what it's worth, some paleontologists who have specialized in the Big One -- the Permian/Triassic Extinction 250 million years ago (Peter D. Ward - Under A Green Sky 2007) tell us that it got pretty damn close to destroying all complex, multicellular life back then. If you are demanding that every bacteria and virus be incinerated also, that's an absurd standard to uphold.

Death is death. Saying that you are killing the planet means all life on the planet is dead. This isn't a standard. There is no grey area. You can't be a little dead.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The person I quoted was insisting that killing the planet was an accurate term. Basically we are arguing samantics rather than issues but I think that accurate terminology is very important.

OK, how about "killing a large majority of the species on the planet, quite possibly including humans"? That's a more accurate description of a mass extinction event. Problem solved?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
OK, how about "killing a large majority of the species on the planet, quite possibly including humans"? That's a more accurate description of a mass extinction event. Problem solved?

In the long run of course, that will solve most of the problems for everything on the planet other than humans.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
OK, how about "killing a large majority of the species on the planet, quite possibly including humans"? That's a more accurate description of a mass extinction event. Problem solved?

Sure. I've said all along that the danger is to ourselves, not the planet. The planet can recover from whatever we do to it. Focusing on the real danger, destroying our own society and quite possible our ability to survive on the planet, should be easier for people to relate to than the obviously false statement: "killing the planet".
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Death is death. Saying that you are killing the planet means all life on the planet is dead. This isn't a standard. There is no grey area. You can't be a little dead.
I didn't use the phrase "killing the planet," but I think it is an appropriate term to apply to what is now the present worse-case scenario of a 6C or 11F global average temperature increase by the end of this century. The changes in climate could last over 100,000 years. It could be the end of life that has a chance to recover and renew the Earth. If Planet Earth ends its days as an abode for one-celled animals, it might as well be dead!
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I prefer geothermal, solar, wind, solar thermal, tidal and hydro power, as well as micro-generation.

In Canada, a report has found that all of our domestic energy needs could be met by geothermal alone - with power to spare.

Canada sitting on 'massive' store of geothermal energy: Report

And yet Alberta continues to burn coal.

The problem is, our power grid is seriously lacking the ability to transfer energy from where the water and air moves to where the people need electricity.

Solar is great for small demands, but is still lacking on a larger scale.

Coal is cheap but mostly coal is our states livelihood.

All these folks will be out of work and their utility bills would be MUCH LARGER.

Besides the "you first" school yard B.S., there is some serious economic considerations of alternate renewable energy.

Right now, only the rich could afford it.

Solandra is the perfect example of why all these green jobs have not happened.

For one, we cannot compete globally and keep our middle class.

Secondly, the shrinking middle class cannot afford to go green.

Thirdly our nation is broke, so subsidizing green technology is not an option.

Like I have said before, I love the thought of more of us going green. I get excited thinking about it. It makes so much common sense.

The biggest barrier I see is that people in the future will be unwilling to reduce their carbon footprint. That means reusing a towel or removing your clothes dryer.

Have you ever noticed there is no energy star clothes dryers? It is an unnessessary appliance.

It definitely means no drive thru and dropping your kid off to school at the front door every day.

It is a life style thing. People are obsessed with sitting in an air conditioned barn to see the latest movie and riding air planes while shopping for the latest fashions.

Adjusting the thermostat will be a complete no-no.
 
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