Goat herders, Scripture, and why Scripture (and the Koran) are toxic, irrational, and dangerous!

[Hockeycowboy]

FWIW...... This is how I understand the scenario to have played out....

Elijah had been taken up in spectacular fashion in a windstorm but his official garment (the identification of a prophet) was left to Elisha. As Elijah's successor, Elisha was in a position that should have incurred respect for his office. The mockery came when those disrespectful young ones, (not very young children) but probably older teenagers were mocking God's prophet in telling him to "go up" like Elijah did.....the crack about his 'bald head' was just added disrespect. They were chiding Elisha as if to say, "if you were really a prophet you would "go up" Like Elijah did".

The deaths of the children was due to Elijah demonstrating his authority as Elijah's successor, and as a strong message to their parents who obviously had not taught their children to respect Jehovah's appointed representatives.
We know what happened later when some of the tribal leaders challenged Moses' authority in their wanderings in the wilderness. God took a dim view of that too.

Agree or not, it sends a clear message that disrespect is never acceptable where God is concerned.

And, no doubt, they'll be resurrected.(I'd bet they'll never mock anyone again!)

 

[Earthling]

Also,
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha
I admire you for wanting to please God by not going back to homosexual acts.
That is heroic in many ways to stay single and celibate.
I'm sure you prayed for God to make you heterosexual.
You would rather only be sexually aroused by women im sure.

God could easily grant that grace.
For whatever reason, he wants you to be gay.

I'm bipolar and schizoaffective. God wants me to have those disorders because he could heal me and he doesn't.

If I am theologically confused, its because God wants me confused, or he would give me the clarity, light, and understanding i pray for!

See what I'm saying?

No. I don't. I've don't believe I've ever prayed to be heterosexual. I've thought about it and determined that I wouldn't be who I was if I hadn't gone through the lifetime of suffering it has caused me. I don't believe for a minute that God wants me to be gay, and I don't think it's heroic. Everyone has their thorn in their flesh. 2 Corinthians 12:7 It all comes from the environment of sin.

In the past God only healed people for a reason, and all of those people ended up getting sick and dying again. That's sort of why I asked you about AA. I think AA is a crock of **** that is more harmful than it is good. You don't need a "higher power" you just think you do. I didn't start drinking and doing drugs heavy until after I became a Bible believer. I didn't stop with a higher power I stopped on my own. My darkest period of drinking and homosexual behavior took place after I became a believer. I believed in God but I wasn't sure I wanted what he had to offer. Everlasting life.

I quite drugs (weed) because I couldn't score any. I quit drinking because I got tired of it. I quit homosexuality because I realized that I couldn't run and hide from God. That even if I were unsure of a desire for everlasting life now, because of sin, I knew that our creator Jehovah God knows more about what is good and what is bad than I, in this state of sin, could possibly imagine, and, with or without me, I wanted that to happen. I wanted the issue of sovereignty that Satan raised to be settled. I wanted Jehovah's name vindicated through Christ Jesus. So I started to try and live accordingly as best I could.

The Bible was a head knowledge thing for me all the while, I found it fascinating. I really enjoyed learning from it, but in action I was far removed. I knew that and I was okay with it. And then I changed. Gradually, it befriended me, so to speak, in a way that transcended in a very practical way, head knowledge.

 

[Earthling]

God wanted us to fall.

No. He wanted us to live forever and fill and subdue the earth. And we will.

God made Satan knowing in advance that he would tempt Adam and Eve.

No he didn't. Jehovah is a God of love and justice and there would be no love or justice in that.

God saw what Satan would do, and permitted it, because he wanted it.

No. He didn't see it until it was too late. He saw the possibility of Adam's sin evident by his warning him.

God knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit before he ever made the stupid tree.

No he didn't.

He could stop it or never make Satan in the first place, never let the stupid serpent in the garden, or never made Eve so stupid she would listen to a talking snake.

Eve wasn't stupid, Satan was shrewd. He couldn't appear as another human, could he? There were only two. It wouldn't be shrewd to appear in his original form because that was the form of the one who had told Adam not to eat of the tree. He appeared as the voice of the serpent who had no restrictions from the tree.

Evil people who kill Christians are doing what God wants them to do.

No one is doing what God wants them to do! They can't. That's why he said they can't enter into his day of rest. A period of time he would have allowed for us to mature as the angels had.

Otherwise, God would give them a change of heart, a healthy mind, freedom from Satan and demons, and God refuses, therefore he wants it.

Would that be free will? And he promises to do away with Satan and his demons to allow us to develop a change of heart, a healthy mind, once justice is served and the issue of his sovereignty is settled. Not because he wants us to, but because we want to.

 

[Twilight Hue]

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I can't tell you how many times I hear people diss the Bible as a book written by "Goat Herders". I know King David and various other figures were at times in their lives, shepherds (or goat herders). But I seriously wonder what percent of Scripture authors were "Goat Herders" ?

Also, people say "Goat Herders" like it's a bad thing. I live in the inner city, so will never see a goat, but can imagine that a goat can teach a person more about God than the Bible.

Hopefully the goat-herder doesn't abuse his goats.... and I'm assuming milking goats, drinking their milk, caring for baby goats, feeding goats, watching them grow, protecting them from predators, etc. has all the potential to teach a person more about God than school, a Doctorate, or books.

Today, a lady shook my hand, let me borrow her AA book, and gave me a smile that spoke more to me about God than the Bible. On my way home, I saw some flowers. Those flowers spoke to me more about God than the Bible. The sunset and the clouds, the green grass, the trees, it all spoke to me more about God than the Bible. I ate some black berries recently. They spoke about God. It was clear that those berries were designed to delight taste-buds.

@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha and countless others are always getting on my case (or other people's) and saying things that indicate that the Bible is the main place to learn about God. The Bible doesn't say that about itself!

I've given up on the Bible and it has nothing to do with goat-herders, goat whippers, goat-eaters, goat fondlers, or goat-milkers.

It's because I read something like Noah's Ark and wonder, how does someone get a boat big enough for all those animals, feed them all, and keep the dangerous ones etc?

Then Jonah lives three days in the belly of some sea creature? What?

Then there is ridiculous stuff like this:
2 Kings 2
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Okay, do I want an ancient text that says something so stupid, to be my rule of life, my rule of faith, my rule of Theology? Really? Do I want to use a book that contains a bunch of far-fetched idiotic rubbish as fuel to correct, judge, and beat people (as so many Christians are fond of doing)?

First off, those are 42 children killed by two bears. Don't the children all start running away in different directions...how does the bear catch them all? And were all 42 of those kids actually making fun of a guys "bald head"? I highly doubt it. And even if there were a crowd of 42 kids simultaneously making fun of some guys bald head, does it deserve capital punishment, by being mauled to death by wild beasts? Really? Think of all the grieving mothers...

Then, a guy steadies the Ark, and God kills him for it. People get executed for working on the Sabbath. How psychotic is that? Kill people for working on the wrong day of the week. That is as sick to me as when ISIS executed children for watching soccer because it "Violated Sharia".

So, why should I follow a book that completely goes against my conscience? Why should I use a text full of toxic information, genocide, bigotry, hate, intolerance, and says other stupid things like "call no man your Father...if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out"...and use that as my sole rule of Theology, rule of life, sole rule of how I learn about God, and whip such a book out to correct and admonish others, or attack what polytheists or Buddhists hold as sacred?

Absolutely Not! I'll pray to God for understanding and enlightenment, but not let some ancient text (full of contradictions) control me, take away my ability to reason, go against my conscience, and lead me into behavior that every fiber of my being tells me to be wrong!

Not gonna happen! I'll pray that God makes me obediently do his will, but I'll not go against my conscience because some ancient irrational text full of contradictions says to.

I tried to read the Koran, thinking it had something better to offer, read it all the way through twice....and hands down, it was easily the most incoherent book I've ever read from front to back! Not to mention, it was toxic, filled me with darkness; it was depressing, disturbing (contained verses about non-muslims being crucified and having their hands and feet chopped off), antisemetic, bigoted, and bad for my health and emotions.

So, by all means, worship God, have a personal relationship with him, pray for him to guide your thoughts and actions....but the Bible and Koran isn't the only way to learn about God, and no where do those books claim they are, and in my experience they are one of the worst sources to learn about God.

Were I God, I would be ashamed that such an irrational, embarrassing piece of literature, was the sole rule and basis of how so many people sought and learned about me!

Follow thy heart! Follow thy conscience! Ask God to guide you!

Thoughts?

I don't think people in those days were dumb or stupid. Just ignorant.

The problem is people today who still think that ignorance is somehow valid and relevant in spite of evidences to the contrary.

 

[Looncall]

God wanted us to fall.

God made Satan knowing in advance that he would tempt Adam and Eve.

God saw what Satan would do, and permitted it, because he wanted it.

God knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit before he ever made the stupid tree.

He could stop it or never make Satan in the first place, never let the stupid serpent in the garden, or never made Eve so stupid she would listen to a talking snake.

Evil people who kill Christians are doing what God wants them to do.

Otherwise, God would give them a change of heart, a healthy mind, freedom from Satan and demons, and God refuses, therefore he wants it.

It's obvious!

Really, what one observes is just what one would expect if there were no gods. Conclusion: this god guff is just an ancient con game.

 

[Earthling]

I don't think people in those days were dumb or stupid. Just ignorant.

The problem is people today who still think that ignorance is somehow valid and relevant in spite of evidences to the contrary.

You know what I think? I think that people are just as ignorant today, if not more so, because they've created the illusion of knowledge. Where do we go when we want to find a new medicine? We go to the primitive people and try to recreate their knowledge for a profit. It's only been a little over a hundred years that a surgeon would go from the morgue to the operating table without washing his hands. Had he paid attention to the hygiene laws in the Bible he wouldn't have done so.

We see the ancients as ignorant but there's a reason why we dig through the dirt to get an insight into their world, all the while ignoring the smokey ruins of time we see in our future.

 

[Earthling]

Really, what one observes is just what one would expect if there were no gods. Conclusion: this god guff is just an ancient con game.

God is just a word that means mighty. Anything can be a god. Cave Deus Ex Machina.

 

[Thaif]

I don't think so. Something I always thought interesting, often you see a sheep herder of the Bible times carrying a baby goat? This was because it was their habit to break the legs of a sheep that tended to wander from the herd, where it would be in danger. So they then had to carry it.

You know that's a myth, don't you. I really tried to check this out because it sounds like such a strange thing to do but I cannot find any fact behind this at all. Have you a reference? All I could find were posts, blogs and websites citing this as a myth.

 

[Earthling]

You know that's a myth, don't you. I really tried to check this out because it sounds like such a strange thing to do but I cannot find any fact behind this at all. Have you a reference? All I could find were posts, blogs and websites citing this as a myth.

I think you may be right. I was told that but looked into it just now and it turns out not to have been the case. It isn't in the Bible and it isn't documented anywhere else, so apparently I bought into a Christian myth. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Spiderman]

No. He wanted us to live forever and fill and subdue the earth. And we will.



No he didn't. Jehovah is a God of love and justice and there would be no love or justice in that.



No. He didn't see it until it was too late. He saw the possibility of Adam's sin evident by his warning him.



No he didn't.



Eve wasn't stupid, Satan was shrewd. He couldn't appear as another human, could he? There were only two. It wouldn't be shrewd to appear in his original form because that was the form of the one who had told Adam not to eat of the tree. He appeared as the voice of the serpent who had no restrictions from the tree.



No one is doing what God wants them to do! They can't. That's why he said they can't enter into his day of rest. A period of time he would have allowed for us to mature as the angels had.



Would that be free will? And he promises to do away with Satan and his demons to allow us to develop a change of heart, a healthy mind, once justice is served and the issue of his sovereignty is settled. Not because he wants us to, but because we want to.

You clearly don't believe God is all-knowing and omnipotent....Got it!

 

[Earthling]

You clearly don't believe God is all-knowing and omnipotent....Got it!

That's correct, I don't believe that. The Bible indicates otherwise. God can get to know and do anything he wants within the constraints of his personality, his characteristics, his will, sense of justice, that sort of thing, but that is limited. God, for example, can't lie. Like I could never kill someone. God doesn't know what it is like to sin, to live under the guilt of sin.

 

[Spiderman]

That's correct, I don't believe that. The Bible indicates otherwise. God can get to know and do anything he wants within the constraints of his personality, his characteristics, his will, sense of justice, that sort of thing, but that is limited. God, for example, can't lie. Like I could never kill someone. God doesn't know what it is like to sin, to live under the guilt of sin.

Yes, that is true, God can commit genocide, and murder defenseless children and babies (like he did in the Bible) and it is not a sin....Got it!

Lying is a sin, but killing innocent sinless babies is not...

 

[Earthling]

Yes, that is true, God can commit genocide, and murder defenseless children and babies (like he did in the Bible) and it is not a sin....Got it!

Lying is a sin, but killing innocent sinless babies is not...

Well, now, wait a minute. Sin is a Hebrew word that means to miss the target. Spear or stone throwers, archers would miss the target and that was called sin. To sin against someone, like God, or your boss, or parents etc. means you miss the mark set by them.

Who set the mark for God? When he commits genocide or murders defenseless children he isn't sinning. He created us. He gave us all the sentence of death. If he takes some of us prematurely it was for good reason within a specific and very narrow time frame. We are, he has said, like grasshoppers to him.

Think about that. How much sleep have you lost over the millions of grasshoppers out of trillions that die on our roads and highways? He wants humans as a whole to fulfill his purpose of filling and subduing the Earth, and he wants as many of us to be saved from destruction as possible, but he knows that we don't necessarily see things his way and are capable of destruction. That's what our death is to prevent. And the deluge of Noah's day, and defenseless children. Who, by the way, were young males, probably in their mid to late teens, in the case we discussed earlier with the bear.

 

[Spiderman]

Well, now, wait a minute. Sin is a Hebrew word that means to miss the target. Spear or stone throwers, archers would miss the target and that was called sin. To sin against someone, like God, or your boss, or parents etc. means you miss the mark set by them.

Who set the mark for God? When he commits genocide or murders defenseless children he isn't sinning. He created us. He gave us all the sentence of death. If he takes some of us prematurely it was for good reason within a specific and very narrow time frame. We are, he has said, like grasshoppers to him.

Think about that. How much sleep have you lost over the millions of grasshoppers out of trillions that die on our roads and highways? He wants humans as a whole to fulfill his purpose of filling and subduing the Earth, and he wants as many of us to be saved from destruction as possible, but he knows that we don't necessarily see things his way and are capable of destruction. That's what our death is to prevent. And the deluge of Noah's day, and defenseless children. Who, by the way, were young males, probably in their mid to late teens, in the case we discussed earlier with the bear.

God can break all his commandments. For instance, he doesn't follow the commandment "thou shall not kill".

He permitted looting, which goes against "thou shall not steal"

Regarding lying, I believe God does lie.
1 Kings 22:22
"'How will you do this?' the LORD asked. "And the spirit replied, 'I will go out and inspire all of Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' "'You will succeed,' said the LORD. 'Go ahead and do it.'

Scripture says "delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart".

"Those who believe in me will do the works i do and greater works."

"Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened."

"Ask anything of the Father in my name, and it shall be done for you."

"Faith of a mustard seed shall move mountains."

"Those who believe in me will pick up venemous serpents and drink poison, and it will not harm them."

I would consider all those to clearly, obviously be lies.

God says, "you shall not make a graven image", then later commands graven images to be made.

So, all of this is evidence that God breaks his own rules!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

....all the while ignoring the smokey ruins of time we see in our future.

That's real good, man! What a poet!

 

[Earthling]

God can break all his commandments. For instance, he doesn't follow the commandment "thou shall not kill".

That was a commandment to us, from the creator of life. Life (in the Bible blood, the soul) belongs to God, not us. So he has told us that we shouldn't take the life of another. There are exceptions, which he has allowed. Animals for food, since Noah saved all animals, and in specific cases of war with the Nation of Israel. They were not to act in war without his permission.

He permitted looting, which goes against "thou shall not steal"

In the case of approved of war, often limited to non religious items, or those golden melted?

Regarding lying, I believe God does lie.
1 Kings 22:22
"'How will you do this?' the LORD asked. "And the spirit replied, 'I will go out and inspire all of Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' "'You will succeed,' said the LORD. 'Go ahead and do it.'

Excellent example of using the scriptures, Pope!! Good Job! When I first came across this in my study that's exactly what I thought. I was wrong, though.

[edit I forgot to add this part of my response.

According to the Bible a lie is not only a verbal expression but also may be action designed to deceive a person who is entitled to know the truth. Living a lie, for example, pretending to be faithful when intentionally carrying out that which is gross sin is, though unspoken, nevertheless a lie.

One is not obligated to tell the truth if the person receiving the information is not entitled to it. (Matthew 7:6; Matthew 21:23-27) The difference being deceiving for personal gain or to avoid due punishment as opposed to misleading in order to avoid unjust harm or allowing someone who wishes to believe a lie to continue doing so. (Genesis 12:10-19; Genesis 20; Genesis 26:1-10 / 2 Kings 6:11-23)

This is what the apostle Paul called "operation of error." It is a case of allowing those who prefer to believe in a falsehood to continue to do so. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) Micaiah had foretold disaster but the prophets of king Ahab didn't want to hear the truth, he wanted victory. It should be recognized that Micaiah did foretell the truth, but Ahab chose not to listen.

It is also important to note that those who tell a lie and repent are forgiven. The case of Peter, for example, having denied Christ 3 times, repented and was forgiven. But those who carry on a lie without repentance are, of course, not forgiven. (Matthew 26:69-75)]

Scripture says "delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart".

If you delight in Jehovah your heart will delight in what is right. You've learned this on your own. You've learned that drugs and alcohol really don't make you happy. What is right is already built within you. We were all given it as we were created in his image.

"Those who believe in me will do the works i do and greater works."

And they have. He began the work.

"Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened."

"Ask anything of the Father in my name, and it shall be done for you."

So long as it is within his will and purpose which is for us to reach our true potential. As opposed to the potential illusion we create.

"Faith of a mustard seed shall move mountains."

Since faith isn't an object that you can compare in size to a mustard seed this statement is metaphorical. A practical example of how it is true is money. In America our currency is currently backed by debt, as opposed to gold as it was in the past. As long as we have faith in the federal reserve notes and plastic credit cards and the dollar doesn't crash it can move mountains literally and figuratively. But if we loose faith in it and it crashes all the resources stay the same but we starve.

"Those who believe in me will pick up venemous serpents and drink poison, and it will not harm them."

This is a spurious scripture, it didn't appear in earlier manuscripts, so it was added on later. A good reference study Bible will indicate this.

I would consider all those to clearly, obviously be lies.

But you say that in ignorance.

God says, "you shall not make a graven image", then later commands graven images to be made.

Where exactly does he do this in scripture? A graven image is something made to worship.

 

[stvdv]

Follow thy heart! Follow thy conscience! Ask God to guide you!
Thoughts?

My thought is your word ==> @PopeADope: Follow thy heart! Follow thy conscience! Ask God to guide you!

Takes guts to drop all, and trust our conscience. More easy to stick to the Bible and the Church.
But trusting God to guide me from within I enjoy so much more.

 

[paarsurrey]

Goat herders

What is wrong with the goat herders, please?
Regards

 

[Spiderman]

Goat herders

What is wrong with the goat herders, please?
Regards

Nothing!

I said that in the OP.

Some people say it like its a bad thing. That's what I was asking.

 

[paarsurrey]

Nothing!

I said that in the OP.

Some people say it like its a bad thing. That's what I was asking.

Thanks and regards