God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

And so THAT is your "proof", and everything from then on you blindly believe in???!!! He CLAIMED it came from "god"!!!

Of course that is not my proof because that would be circular reasoning....

It would also be really stupid to BELIEVE what He claimed just because He claimed it, since anyone can make claims.

So let's see your proof to back up his claim that it came from your "god".

There is no proof, only evidence that "indicates" He was telling the truth, which would mean it came from God.

I've brought this up before and as always you just ran off, but you previously stated that ANYONE who thinks God speaks to them are delusional, so why is your bombastic gobbledygook Baha'u'llah writings any other than that?

I only ever said that "I believe" that anyone other than a Messenger of God who thinks God speaks to them is delusional, since I do not believe God speaks to anyone else except His Messengers.

And going on past that lack of proof, how come you so blindly believe whatever the Baha'i cult leaders tell you it means, even though his writings say no such thing?

The Writings of Baha'u'llah do say what I believe, as noted below.

“To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.” 1No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures.Hestandeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence; inasmuch as by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist, and by His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being, the world of the visible.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 98

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself................The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” GleaningsFrom the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

There are no Baha'i cult leaders telling me what anything means because there are no Baha'i cult leaders. I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote, period.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Of course that is not my proof because that would be circular reasoning....

It would also be really stupid to BELIEVE what He claimed just because He claimed it, since anyone can make claims.

There is no proof, only evidence that "indicates" He was telling the truth, which would mean it came from God.

I only ever said that "I believe" that anyone other than a Messenger of God who thinks God speaks to them is delusional, since I do not believe God speaks to anyone else except His Messengers.

The Writings of Baha'u'llah do say what I believe, as noted below.

“To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.” 1No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures.Hestandeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence; inasmuch as by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist, and by His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being, the world of the visible.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 98

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself................The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” GleaningsFrom the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

There are no Baha'i cult leaders telling me what anything means because there are no Baha'i cult leaders. I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote, period.

Just like I have always stated, you blindly believe what you are told to believe.

And never mind trying your usual word games, be it in person or written down, you are being TOLD that it's from "god", and blindly believe it for NO GOOD REASON. From there you blindly believe what the Baha'i cult leaders tell you it all means. And yes you do, since you keep on presenting "interpretations" from your cult leaders as "proof", like in your trying to "prove" to me how Bahá’u’lláh "foretold" the current events in America. Which "proved" no such thing, but only made you look foolish.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just like I have always stated, you blindly believe what you are told to believe.

Just like I have always stated, I bevel what I do based upon my OWN individual investigation.

Nobody TELLS me what to believe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So messengers are in constant contact with god to get all the messages right. Or so you believe.

That is a subject within itself, it is a connection that has been explained like this;

"... The revealed Word has an inner spirit and an outer form. The innermost spirit is limitless in its potentialities; it belongs to the world of the uncreated and is generated by the Holy Spirit of God. The outer form of the Word of God acts as a channel through which the stream of God's Holy Spirit flows. It has its limitations inasmuch as it pertains to the world of man. Like a mother who impresses on her child certain traits of her own character, the Bearer of the Message of God influences the outer form of the Word of God......"

This word pours from the Messengers, they have no prior learning, they do not sit and think. In this age it is recorded how it happens.

This link talks if the nature of this process

Spoiler

https://www.upliftingwords.org/post/the-nature-of-Baha'u'llah's-revelation

I believe one dream doesn't create 1400 messages. I believe A true messenger without the tools to convert most he meets isn't very good. The fact that the authorities weren't convinced is evidence of the lack of tools

The Word of God comes to the Messenger as God gives it. The Messenger lives the Word they offer, they are the fist example of the power and influence the Word can and will produce.

But we have the choice to except or reject that power it contains, we can remain earthly and limited to which death will overtake, or be reborn and become eternal in thought unlimited in power.

What we can not see is that spiritual world to come, it is all around us, and from my understanding, it is also all within us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Only Mohammed was successful in getting his message across because he had an army behind him.

Yet Christianity was the first to be taught amongst all Nations. That was also a sign that God would send the latter day Messiah and fulfill the promises given

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Baha'u'llah sent the Message to all Nations and in less than 100 years the Message had been given in all Nations without the need for weapons.

Again that is already foretold, that a Message would come that will bring peace from those that beat swords into plowshares.

Big topic again.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is this a recipe for us? Are we all to believe the same, follow government whatever it says or does, speak the same language, etc. Imagine this with the power of a ruling council. What happens when some say NO!

It will not happen that way, it will be a unity in recognition of our diversity. We will all participate and minorities will have a voice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.” God Passes By, pp. 137-138

This has always brought tears to my eyes, knowing that we could be unlimited, but also realising we are blinded to the power that will motivate us to become more than we are.

I hope when free of this hinderence, that we get to read all that was lost to the river?

One can never know what their end here will be.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When he wrote he was asleep, he meant he was awake!!!

There is quite a few passages that tell us to get off our couches of Heedlessness and that when in the morning the Spirit comes to greet us we are still fast asleep on those couches.

As such I see it is an awareness of the Spirit and Baha'u'llah is saying that awareness is like being awoken from our worldly slumber.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That quote above did not come from Baha’u’llah and the New Era. I know that because I went right to the online version of the text and did a search for "universal peace" and found out what Abdu'l-Baha actually wrote:

The Most Great Peace​

In all ages the Prophets of God have foretold the coming of an era of “peace on earth, goodwill among men.” As we have already seen Bahá’u’lláh, in the most glowing and confident terms, confirms these prophecies and declares that their fulfillment is at hand. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
… in this marvellous cycle, the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquility and beauty. Disputes, quarrels, and murders will be replaced by peace, truth, and concord; among the nations, peoples, races, and countries, love and amity will appear. Co-operation and union will be established, and finally war will be entirely suppressed. … Universal peace will raise its tent in the centre of the earth, and the Blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and calf—will act towards each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice, and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God.—Some Answered Questions, pp. 74–75.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 157-158

If you don't believe me, you can do the same search as I did from this link: Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

When Abdu’l-Baha said “… in this marvellous cycle” he was referring to the present religious cycle we live in, which is to last no less than 500,000 years. There is no way of knowing when during this present cycle universal peace will be established.

I was intended that there would be descendants but since there were none, and Shoghi Effendi died before he could appoint another Guardian, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) was established, according to the express wishes of Baha'u'llah and that can be found in His Writings. Presently the UHJ is the leader of the religion, the highest governing body to whom we turn.

Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era Regarding the Explanation of Daniel 12:12

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, name a few and let's see what they believed about God.

Smart people have believed the Bible to be literally true. Some of them have written books "proving" the Bible is true... like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell. But if you read their books, you I bet would totally and completely disagree with them. Because you think you have the real truth.

What kind of answer is that? Baha'is make "claims" or "statements" then wiggle out of backing those claims and statements. Usually with idiotic posts like this one.

Actually to be truthful, I have always been an impatient person CG, most likely these days it would be written up to be ADHD.

My school reports all say slow down pay more attention to detail, at work no one could keep up, in the army always finished first at given tasks, top soldier syndrome etc

So I actually find it mostly pointless going over and over the same thing.

To me it is naught about me wriggling out of things, to me it would be me suggesting that you take some initiative and find out those things.

It may be I have chosen to offer little, as Baha'u'llah asked me not to pour out my heart to those that do not want to hear what was offered.

If one did want to hear, I am sure they would. Personally immerse themselves in that word.

All the best CG, I hope life works out well for you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era Regarding the Explanation of Daniel 12:12

The link proves your original post was not correct.

Is that what you are offering?

“... Any doubts as to the intention of the words of `Abdu'l-Bahá as reported by Dr. Esslemont are to be resolved, therefore, by reference to clear texts from the pen of `Abdu'l-Bahá Himself, which is exactly what the Bahá'í institutions have undertaken, as will be seen from the next section of this memorandum. It then becomes clear that Daniel's prophecy of the 1,335 days does not give the date of the establishment of world peace, but relates to the world-wide establishment of the Bahá'í Faith. The words of `Abdu'l-Bahá which Dr. Esslemont quotes are very similar to words appearing in many of `Abdu'l-Bahá's writings referring to the processes which will take place during the period of the Lesser Peace, culminating in the Most Great Peace. In other words, they describe the working out of the spirit of Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation in world society... "

Luckily, under the Covernant, any misunderstanding that individuals may create as to the intent of the Message of Baha'u'llah, by what they offered, can now be cleared up.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You do not have any hard evidence confirming that Baha'u'llah was wrong.
The lack of evidence that proves what He said is true is not evidence that what He said is false.

So for example, the fact that it cannot be proven that certain Prophets such as Adam, Noah, or Abraham existed does not prove that they did not exist.

The lack of proof that there is life on every planet does not mean there is not life on every planet.

It is an argument from ignorance to claim that a proposition is true unless you can prove it is true. I am not making a claim that anything is true; I am simply saying "I believe."

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false.

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

I have hard evidence the Adam, Flood, plagues, Jericho, Drowning of the Egyptian Army are pure fiction. So all the events linked to these prophets is false. So are you saying Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc were the names of people not in the bible?

As for life on every planet. I'll let others decide who is right and who is wrong.

False Prophets Series – Part 3: Bahá’u’lláh and Abdul-Bahá – Many Prophets, One Message

Bahaullah is good at predicting things the world can see. He's vague at predicting other things, never gives specific dates because he knows dates will prove him wrong The main problem with his wishes is seeing them come to fruition. It will take a completely new species of hominids to accomplish his goals. Because the drive to compete, make war on our fellow man has been going on for 100,000s of years.

World’s Oldest Murder Mystery Was 430,000 Years in the Making

10,000-year-old mass killing is still a mystery

Genocides in history - Wikipedia

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

If scientists knew for certain (because they had proof) that are no living creatures on any other planet in our solar system that would be cause for me to be concerned about what Baha'u'llah wrote, but the fact that scientists “do not believe” that there are any living creatures on any other planet in our solar system is not proof that there aren’t any.

We're on the brink of going to Mars. If the astronauts report there is no life on Mars will you give up on this belief there might be? Or just keep saying because they didn't find it that doesn't prove it isn't there?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Just like I have always stated, I bevel what I do based upon my OWN individual investigation.

Nobody TELLS me what to believe.

Bahaullah, Shoghi Effendi, Abdul Baha tell you what to believe. Even when they're proven wrong. Like Shoghi Effendi being followed by his children. A real prophet would know he wasn't going to have children.

Even when Bahaullah plainly says he was asleep, you change it he was awake.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That is a subject within itself, it is a connection that has been explained like this;

So answer it here. Bahaullah mentions being visited by god how many times? If he was busy writing all the tablets did he have time to stop and listen, did god approve any of the tablets or did he get one dream and just poured out endless scripts?

The Word of God comes to the Messenger as God gives it. The Messenger lives the Word they offer, they are the first example of the power and influence the Word can and will produce.

So is that one visit or multiple visits and approving the writings?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Yet Christianity was the first to be taught amongst all Nations. That was also a sign that God would send the latter day Messiah and fulfill the promises given

Because we had big bloody armies to teach the people. Even then there are more people in a religion, not Christianity than in it.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It will not happen that way, it will be a unity in recognition of our diversity. We will all participate and minorities will have a voice.

Regards Tony

So why does it say follow governments, same language, etc.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There is quite a few passages that tell us to get off our couches of Heedlessness and that when in the morning the Spirit comes to greet us we are still fast asleep on those couches.

As such I see it is an awareness of the Spirit and Baha'u'llah is saying that awareness is like being awoken from our worldly slumber.

Regards Tony

Bahaullah said he was asleep and awoken by the spirit. Not about us getting off our couches.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The link proves your original post was not correct.

Is that what you are offering?

“... Any doubts as to the intention of the words of `Abdu'l-Bahá as reported by Dr. Esslemont are to be resolved, therefore, by reference to clear texts from the pen of `Abdu'l-Bahá Himself, which is exactly what the Bahá'í institutions have undertaken, as will be seen from the next section of this memorandum. It then becomes clear that Daniel's prophecy of the 1,335 days does not give the date of the establishment of world peace, but relates to the world-wide establishment of the Bahá'í Faith. The words of `Abdu'l-Bahá which Dr. Esslemont quotes are very similar to words appearing in many of `Abdu'l-Bahá's writings referring to the processes which will take place during the period of the Lesser Peace, culminating in the Most Great Peace. In other words, they describe the working out of the spirit of Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation in world society... "

Luckily, under the Covernant, any misunderstanding that individuals may create as to the intent of the Message of Baha'u'llah, by what they offered, can now be cleared up.

Regards Tony

I was referring to this part.

1. `Abdu'l-Bahá is a false prophet as He predicted that world peace would be established by 1957;


2. The Bahá'ís attempted to conceal the fact that His prophecy was not fulfilled by revising "Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era" after the fact.


In "Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era" (Chapter 14, Prophecies of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá), Dr. J. E. Esslemont referred to the prophecy in Daniel 12:12 -- "Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand, three hundred and thirty-five days." On page 212 of the first edition, which was published in 1923 by Allen & Unwin in London ... and Brentano's in New York, he states:

In a table-talk at which the writer was present, `Abdu'l-Bahá said:--


"These 1,335 days mean 1,335 solar years from the Hijrat." (Flight of Muhammad from Medina to Mecca, marking the beginning of the Muhammadan era.)


Dr. Esslemont then calculates the date when the prophecy will be fulfilled and quotes a second utterance of `Abdu'l-Bahá:


As the Hijrat occurred in 622 A.D., the date referred to is, therefore, 1957 (i.e. 622 + 1,335) A.D. Asked: "What shall we see at the end of the 1,335 days?" he replied:--


"Universal Peace will be firmly established, a Universal language promoted. Misunderstandings will pass away. The Bahá'í Cause will be promulgated in all parts and the oneness of mankind established. It will be most glorious!"

1,335 days suddenly becomes 1,335 years. So why did they say days?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So answer it here. Bahaullah mentions being visited by god how many times? If he was busy writing all the tablets did he have time to stop and listen, did god approve any of the tablets or did he get one dream and just poured out endless scripts?

The connection of the Manifestation with God is like that of the Sun in the perfect mirror. To us they areal we an know of the Sun and we can with our acceptance mirror them.

They are like a perfect polished mirror, so all we see reflected is the Attributes of the Holy Spirit, we can never know the Essence of their being, let alone know the Essence of God.

This subject is immense and years of study only touches on the potential we All have within.

Faith is about finding that potential and to start forming our spiritual limbs for the life to come. The only thing that holds us back from development, is the choices we make.

Regards Tony