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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

rational experiences

Veteran Member
You are attributing motives to the Baha'is that you do not know that have. I cannot speak for any other Baha'is, but I know that is not my motive for posting threads.

I do not have to convince myself, I absolutely know that what the Baha'i Faith teaches is the truth and that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. 100%. That is one reason I am willing to take all manner of criticism and defend the Faith.

You might want to pay a little closer attention to what I am posting because I am not arguing with anyone; I am explaining things and using logical reasoning. Show me where I was unkind or unloving.

I am not trying to win anything, including arguments. Defending when attacked is not arguing.


If a male quotes, I came closer to God, when the first and original God is just cold stone fused mass. Then by his say so how would he come closer to God as a male writing information by channelled medium advice, to think and be spiritually chemically mind affected?

To be taught that he was witnessed as a human and a male speed writing information and owning chemical changes to his life bio life, whilst re writing thesis that had already been witnessed and scientific stated before. Yet where he was in his modern life, as a new witnessing bio life body affect by God the Earth radiation releases, which is to see and view spiritual visions and see spirit is why?

Which for modern science today would quote....you personally do not own nor control natural as a God theme. And the Earth is releasing without science/machines the radiation that was released before a long time ago in Moses/ and Jesus events life sacrificed?

And claim and so I came close to knowing God in a realisation condition, the stone science thesis information? As advice his physical life was attacked and he became the writer of identifying. Seeing his human bones are as One with God the stone fusion and his bio life with Holy Water, his baptism?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Great, Giving fallible humans multiple choices. Hmmm. Should I do things that I like doing, or do what an unknowable, invisible God wants me to do. Which includes me not doing some of the things I like doing? How many laws have been revealed by Baha'u'llah? Should you serve God and obey his laws with all your heart? Are you planning on obeying them all? Do you feel guilty for doing something just for yourself?
You can do whatever you want to do because you have free will to choose. You are not a Baha'i so you are not subject to the Bahai Laws. I do my best to follow all the laws but if I slip up I do not feel guilty, but I do feel guilty doing something just for myself.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah, I looked at the maps of the ancient Assyrian Empire again and, to me, it doesn't look like it goes far enough east to get to Teheran. But she doesn't care. Why research something that might prove her beliefs wrong.
Prove my beliefs wrong?
I have not heard anything that funny all year, but it is only September 23. :rolleyes:

Keep going with those prophecies, you are not going to prove the Baha'i Faith is wrong, you will only prove it is right.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
O God the stone Earth. Original entombed spirits says the male human scientist, as a human, not speaking as a lying theist, who quotes his consciousness existed artificially somehow informed in nuclear reactive history. AI says the science Satanic self, consciousness he quotes existed before I did.

As a human before my baby human life, 2 adult human conscious memories recorded in the same atmospheric vision conditions where microbial form carbonised to own communicative recorded image/voice feed back. How it affects thinking and humans own a condition named as lying also. Notified totally.

An animal in same stable water environment cooled by YEARLY Ice amassing, also is conscious in its life form. Not as high as our owned selves.

Then Trees closest to God by being rooted in the ground mass, unlike the moving bodies in the water mass. Tree as its highest life form is the TREE. The one word quotes highest God form, the tree.

In the stone however water sealed is microbes...microbes with water.

Without God the stone minerals...then life also would not exist. God ideals about stone history. Not conscious itself, the conscious preaching theist preaches all conscious observations, what they see first. You have to look to see to be motivated by a choice to observe to see to think beyond what you first gave to self as words. That status is research.

Re means to do something again, but the consciousness the human self is doing it. God the natural history O stone mass and gases is not doing it. The human is.

As you do re the search you get voice and image recorded doing it. Holographic memory. No presence, no vision, no recording either or image.

If a human quotes and all images are seen in machine visions, then the designer quotes...if I can image all pre living/existing bodies animate and inanimate by image and vision, then did God put the image/vision there...or did a reaction put the image/vision there?

If an image/vision of a fully formed planet can be looked at separately by a vision and an image, then the physical form is not the vision or the image. As when you quote vision you think exactly upon its order as being a vision, the same as image.

What you thesis about it, is just a human choice.

So if the Earth for example was not physical mass present, and you pretended that you were looking at it when it never existed, did it exist in an image first?

No, only space would exist as the thinking concept. Therefore we did not get formed by an image.

Concept I the MAGE is a male human discussion about how he thinks he is magical. Magic in the past was alchemy, to take what God owned and change it...making you personally as a male more powerful than God. Yet what conditions of awareness did you use to convert God mass? The Sun radiation, a consumer.

Which is why science by male history is just Satanism.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth."

Trailblazer: Who is this your Lord, the Creator, and what things have befallen him?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
"O ye beloved of God! Repose not yourselves on your couches, nay bestir yourselves as soon as ye recognize your Lord, the Creator, and hear of the things which have befallen Him, and hasten to His assistance. Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth."

Trailblazer: Who is this your Lord, the Creator, and what things have befallen him?

All the Avatar's share that information.

Regards Tony
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
IF an all-powerful, all-knowing god actually existed, "revelations" which are then orally transmitted and eventually written down, would not be his method of communication, because such a god would know even better then we do how it's about the dumbest thing he could do.
I'm sure such a God, for example, would know about the problems that are exposed in the so-called "telephone game".

I'm sure such a god would also realize how centuries down the line, people would have to be relying on copies of copies of translations of copies of translations of copies of copies of copies of..... with no originals to be seen anywhere.

If I were such a god, and I'ld go for text to communicate, I'ld definatly create the book myself and use indestructible material. I might even make it a magic book so that the text always appears in the language of the reader - realising very well that most of the languages used "today" wouldn't even exist anymore 2000 years from now.

I'ld also send exact copies of this book to all corners of the world, to all people, so that there wasn't a single culture without access to it, instead of relying on a bunch of illiterate primitive goat herders of "spreading the word".
Imagine Columbus arriving in the americas only to find out that they have an exact copy of the exact same book, made from the exact same indestructible materials and carrying the exact same text, design and illustrations.

But that didn't happen. Instead, the people he encountered had never heared of Jawhe and stuff. Instead, they believed in extremely different gods which were extremely incompatible with the christian one.

The demographics of religion, look exactly like it would look if religions are human inventions. Every (sub)culture has their own mutually exclusive religion. This is 100% consistent with religion being a human invention. It is not at all consistent with 1 religion being a "true" religion, with a god that cares for humans and wants them to know about him.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
It cannot be evidenced to YOU because you do not SEE the evidence as evidence. We humans all see things differently. But if you are not convinced by the evidence that God provides, then you are not going to believe, it is as simple as that. I do not see any solution to that unless you changed the way you view the evidence. That would require you to change your way of thinking about evidence and what would constitute evidence for God.

First, you would need to understand that God is not a material being, so God can never be demonstrated in the material world like your dog can be demonstrated. Obviously any evidence of God would have to be demonstrable in the material world were you to see it and believe it is evidence of God. I believe that the Messengers of God are that evidence, the most direct evidence of God that we have.
Your problem is you believe in one man's interpretation of religious truth. When there are 1,000s of different interpretations. Someone has to be lying if not all of them. And this "God can never be demonstrated in the material world" makes the lies easy and gives the liars an easy out.

So is the method of using messengers as a method of delivering a message flawed? Certainly, because it gives liars the opportunity to lie.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Likewise, it will never make any sense to me that there is no God.
Just because I cannot know it as a proven fact, that does not mean I cannot know it. I do know it.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

Are all the other 93% of people in the world deluded? That does not make sense to me.
Clearly, the majority of people in the world believe in a God they cannot see, feel, touch or measure. That does not prove God exists, but it means something. Why would that many people believe in a God for which there was no evidence? It makes no sense to say that many people are irrational because if they were the world could not function at all. It makes no sense to say that all those people believe in God just because they want to, because it gives them some kind of emotional comfort. The material world gives atheists emotional comfort, but I don't say they believe in it for that reason.
You got your figures wrong.

The problem with pulling up quotes that suit your argument is it's easy to pull up other quotes that contradict yours. Even so given that the majority of the world isn't as educated as to the West, that most have been brainwashed as children into believing in a various religion and many just pay lip service to religion the numbers are far lower.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Yes, they are very different in some cases, but there is a logical explanation for that, there is always an explanation.

No, they do not always BUILD on one another, but there is a spiritual progression throughout history. That means that humanity has been evolving spiritually and will continue to do so. Just as science is continually evolving to meet our material needs, religion is continually evolving in order to meet our spiritual needs.

History as Spiritual Evolution

The graphic was an oversimplification of a complex issue to try to get the main point across, that there are many Messengers that all come from the same God. From each one of those Messengers a religion is established. All the Messengers who ever came to earth are not shown on the graphic, but those are the primary ones.

There is a very simple answer to that. There is only one true God; there is no pantheon of Gods and the norse understanding was incorrect. The one true God is the God of all the major religions even though He has been depicted differently in some of the true religions of God. There is an explanation for that too.
Actually, all you have are excuses, because you do not have actual, verifiable evidence to back you up. Many of these writings and texts you're trying to weave together do not mention one another. The Abrahamic faiths are all just copies or thieveries of one another - exactly like happened when the Romans adopted the Greek pantheon of gods and mostly only changed the names.

Besides this, you keep referencing the "logic" behind this when there simply is none, ESPECIALLY if there is only one true God who is trying to get "a message" out to everyone. The fact that this "message" evolves (as you claim it does) introduces the idea that NOT EVERYONE THROUGHOUT HISTORY GOT THE SAME CHANCE. In other words, God let quite a lot of people down who were never, EVER going to receive the full message in their lifetimes. If God already had the full message, what was stopping Him from delivering? This plan of "message evolution?" Is He that inept?

In the end, you have a bunch of disparate information and you are desperately trying to marry it all together - but that is all I see. Desperation. And I don't even know why you are doing it. Because you think it will "help" me? I don't need your help. Honestly. You can stop if that is what you are trying to do. I do not need your help with any of this. Just as you would most certainly claim that you don't need my help with any of it either. There is nothing going wrong with my life that I feel would, in any way, be helped by religion, or belief in God, etc. I am being dead serious. Religion is just garbage as far as I can tell. A bunch of stories people tell themselves and each other because they fear the void they think is out there waiting to swallow them up otherwise. I don't fear that void. It's fine if that's what's there, waiting for me. I am sure you don't understand that mindset. It is quite clear that you are one of the ones who just can't accept certain ideas and be content with them. I feel you likely need these fabrications in order to make you feel like there is some "meaning" behind all of it, and that your struggles are not simply in vein. It is a completely terrible way to go about viewing life, honestly. Just awful, and if that is you, then you have my sympathies. And if it isn't a description of you, then simply ignore me. Basically, I am saying that this conversation is over. I don't need the information you think you have. Never have, never will. It's beyond useless to me.
 
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PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
But there is a logical explanation for that.
:D
The logical explanation is that only 1 can be right and all the rest wrong. So it's up to you to work out the right one.

Given that the original book Abrahamic religions are based on is wrong on so many things, that this god allowed us, Humans, to exist for so long without a word from him. I know the book is an invention of men and has no message from any god.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
That atheists feel profoundly uncomfortable with what they do not know. So uncomfortable that they construct narratives to explain how there could be so many believers and so many religions if God does not exist. Atheists will believe anything that they want to believe is true, never afraid of what might be true.
I know there is no god. So no need to worry about me being uncomfortable.

Your arrogance towards people who don't believe illustrates why you chose such a minor interpretation of the bible.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I know there is no god. So no need to worry about me being uncomfortable.

Yur arrogance towards people who don't believe illustrates why you chose such a minor interpretation of the bible.
@Trailblazer - do you see how @PAUL MARKHAM simply asserts things that you must feel that he can't, necessarily know for certain? THAT IS EXACTLY HOW YOU SOUND most of the time. Exactly.

I happen to agree with you @PAUL MARKHAM - wanted to make sure you were aware of that. And I honestly thank you for giving @Trailblazer a taste of her own medicine.
 

Jos

Well-Known Member
It is based upon the Covenant of Baha’u’llah, so if one believes in Baha’u’llah they believe that any interpretations of scriptures made by Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah are authoritative and thus accurate.
Ok I'm done talking about this because this is a faith based position that I don't know how you can know is true in comparison to other faith based positions

I do not expect it to come soon, but I expect it to happen eventually, based upon what Baha’u’llah wrote. In the following passage “His Cause” means the Cause if Baha’u’llah, the Baha’i Faith.
Well until I see it happen I'm not gonna believe it

Baha’is do not believe in salvation as Christians do given there is nothing to be saved from, since we do not believe in original sin Jesus knew nothing of original sin, that is a Christian doctrine. Moreover, Jesus did not refer to salvation but rather referred to eternal life, and He was not referring to physical life of the body, and Jesus was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God. Eternal life is a state of the soul that is near to God. That said, the only way we can get near to God is through His Manifestation (Messenger), and since Baha’u’llah was the Messenger of God for this age, that is the closest we can get to God, but that does not mean we cannot get close to God at all through any of the previous Messengers.
Again that's a faith based position and your or your religion's interpretation of what Jesus claimed and I don't know how you can know that's true.

That is good to know. Agnosticism is a respectable position.
Is atheism a respectable position?

They could say that they gave up all their preconceived ideas, had an open mind, and thought for themselves and it led elsewhere, but wherever it led I cannot think of another major religion like the Baha’i Faith, which is not an easy road to travel, nor is the gate wide, given few have entered through it.
Lots of religions claim that their path is not the easy path, so it's nothing new under the sun for Bahai's to claim the same thing
 
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PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
The graphic was an oversimplification of a complex issue to try to get the main point across, that there are many Messengers that all come from the same God. From each one of those Messengers a religion is established. All the Messengers who ever came to earth are not shown on the graphic, but those are the primary ones.
Is that the Hindu, Ancient Egyptian. Aztec, Norse, etc god or just the one you believe in?

Here's your problem with convincing people only your ideas are right. There have been so many different religions that contradict each other someone is conning the believers.

4,300 religions

There are some 4,300 religions of the world. This is according to Adherents, an independent, non-religiously affiliated organisation that monitors the number and size of the world's religions.


This is without including the ancient world. Religion in the Ancient World

They contradict each other so much they can't all be true.

So why is there religion? Important question. We have always wanted an edge to life, such as hunting, gathering, having children, getting water, staying safe, war, etc. By inventing a god and telling the people if they do as I tell them (because I know what god wants) he will give you that edge.

This thinking predates Abraham by a long way. So did Abraham, Moses, David, Soloman, etc and all those who invented the Abrahamic religion just perpetuate the lie?

Examine science to find some truth. Earth existed billions of years before the appearance of Man.

timeline-evolution-of-life-cropped.jpg


Man wasn't a one-off creation our line goes back long before Homo Sapiens.

scheme-evolution-human-lineage-hominin-species-bars.jpg


Evolution happens today as we adapt to new lifestyles. The difference in different races proves evolution.

So did leaders, chiefs, kings etc invent gods and religions to maintain power? Answer that one and you find the truth.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So is the method of using messengers as a method of delivering a message flawed? Certainly, because it gives liars the opportunity to lie.

Not only that, but the thread title makes two very large assumptions: firstly, that he exists at all, and secondly, that if he exists he sends messages.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
@Trailblazer - do you see how @PAUL MARKHAM simply asserts things that you must feel that he can't, necessarily know for certain? THAT IS EXACTLY HOW YOU SOUND most of the time. Exactly.

I happen to agree with you @PAUL MARKHAM - wanted to make sure you were aware of that. And I honestly thank you for giving @Trailblazer a taste of her own medicine.
It's easy to not believe in any god. One only has to examine all the evidence. my previous post just scratches the surface of the evidence and weigh it against the evidence of the opposite side. They continually use Faith, a god who we can only "see" if we believe we see. A god who doesn't have to show himself. But a god who cares, loves, punishes us for wrongdoings, in the words of the religious leaders, who "speaks" to us via 1,000s of third persons, etc.

If it smells like a con, looks like a con, talks like one. Then it is a con.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
That is true. The messages are not flawed.

It is the humans who do not get the messages that are flawed.
Suppose someone designed a system for radio broadcast of messages. Both the transmitter and the reciever radios.


But most of the radios don't pick up the frequency the transmitter broadcasts on. Is the flaw in the radios? The transmitter?

Or whoever designed the system?
Tom
 
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