God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[ppp]

It is also important to note that this was me explaining my beliefs within the context of a discussion, it was not me making blanket statements about what I believe unsolicited.

Explanation
"a statement or account that makes something clear.
a reason or justification given for an action or belief."

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Trailblazer said:

There's plenty of material online on why Christianity succeeded in the Roman Empire. While some of these factors are also present today, such as

• pax Romana / pax Americana
• common language (Ancient Greek / English)
• safe travelling / globalization
• gain of esteem by martyrdom

other factors are different, especially Christianity demanding to give up all other religions, appealing to the lowly and destitute and encouraging its members to show (actual, physical) charity. So, if the Baha'i want to gain more followers, they probably should drop their main claim of "respecting all other religions" in order to play their card of allegiance to Baha'ullah straight. They also should start actual charities instead of making social justice an abstract issue in the far-away future. They might also consider that their claim of "respecting all religions" is probably too complicated to possibly appeal to simple minds. The product thus created might probably not be the Baha'i faith anymore, but only then they could compare themselves to early Christianity. If you start a religion with a complicated premise, you may only attract a certain clientele, and these are not the lowly and destitute, who are often the majority.

Also make sure that most of your converts are illiterate and uneducated. That helped Christianity grow a lot, too. The upper class wealthy and educated people ignored Christianity for the first couple centuries, which is one reason why not much was written about early Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you post a map of ancient Assyria that shows how far east it goes. Then let's see if it covers the part of Iran where Teheran is located. That's all. Just prove some of your bull %&*$. Just saying things are "funny" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard you do. I said "might" prove your B.S. wrong.

I just spent two hours looking for maps of ancient Assyria to see if it covers the part of Iran where Tehran is located. I discovered that Tehran was within that boundary. The blue line shows the boundary.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you post a map of ancient Assyria that shows how far east it goes. Then let's see if it covers the part of Iran where Teheran is located. That's all. Just prove some of your bull %&*$. Just saying things are "funny" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard you do. I said "might" prove your B.S. wrong.

While looking for the maps, I found and article and a some website you might be interested in reading:

How the Hebrew Prophets Predicted the Coming of Baha’u’llah

Prophecies from the Bible

 

[Trailblazer]

OK maybe you don't criticize them as people for not believing in God but you do criticize their nonbelief and say that they don't like that God uses messengers or that they're close-minded which might be true of some but not all of them. That's a bit besides the point though because you did say earlier that atheists are reasonable for not believing in God because there's no proof God exists, so aren't you being unreasonable for believing in God?

I said there is no PROOF that God exists but I did not say there is no EVIDENCE that God exists. I believe that the Messengers of God are the evidence that God exists.

They have looked at the evidence, it's just that they don't find it to be convincing and I don't blame them since the evidence is based on circular reasoning among other issues that have already been pointed out.

I have pointed out time and again that circular reasoning does not prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God.

Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Wikipedia

Are all circular arguments invalid?

No. The circularity does not reduce the validity of these arguments in any way. That is, there is nothing inherently wrong with circular argument, although this does not mean that all circular arguments are valid and/or sound. It should be more clear now that this line of reasoning is perfectly valid.Aug 18, 2017

Circular arguments are perfectly valid - THE SKEPTICAL SCIENTIST Why is circular reasoning bad?

Circular arguments are perfectly valid

18th August 2017 by Tim van der Zee

You have likely heard the claim that circular arguments are wrong or incoherent. In this short post I will outline why this is not the case. Circular arguments are perfectly fine; in fact, they can be quite convincing!

Let’s start with perhaps the most famous bad example of a circular argument:

God exists because the bible says so, and the bible is true because God exists.

It is clear that this is circular, as each statement depends on the other to be true. It’s also a bad argument from a logical standpoint, as logical arguments tend to be formulated in “if A than B”, and this formulation is missing here. This emphasizes the other weak aspect of this argumentation: both claims have a rather low prior probability.

Let’s see what happens when we rephrase the above argument to the following:

If the bible is true God exists, and, if God exists the bible is true.

While both claims still have the same very low probability, it is now a more coherent – albeit circular – line of reasoning. Is there anything wrong with these arguments because they are circular? No. The circularity does not reduce the validity of these arguments in any way. That is, there is nothing inherently wrong with circular argument, although this does not mean that all circular arguments are valid and/or sound.

Lets examine this a little further by stripping this argumentation type to its most abstract form:

If A then B. If B then A

It should be more clear now that this line of reasoning is perfectly valid. Each individual statement is perfectly valid, and the combination of the two are also valid. In fact, if B stands for something with a non-zero prior probability than the inclusion of the second argument increases the probability that A is true. This is why these types of circular arguments are not only completely valid, they can be convincing as well – if used properly.

Circular arguments are perfectly valid

So here is my perfectly valid circular argument:

If what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, God exists, and, if God exists what Baha'u'llah wrote is true.

I am sorry, but I do not believe that atheists have really looked at the evidence for Baha'u'llah because they dismiss the possibility that God would use Messengers to communicate, as if they could ever know that was not the case. It is an argument from ignorance to assert that God would never use a Messenger of God to communicate because that can never be proven false. As such it could be true, so if atheists really wanted to believe in God the logical thing to do would be to look at the evidence for Baha'u'llah.

There might be one or two atheists on this forum who were willing to consider it a possibility that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and gave it a fair shot, but if you consider just how many atheists are on this forum that is very small percentage of the whole.

 

[CG Didymus]

You got your figures wrong.

The problem with pulling up quotes that suit your argument is it's easy to pull up other quotes that contradict yours. Even so given that the majority of the world isn't as educated as to the West, that most have been brainwashed as children into believing in a various religion and many just pay lip service to religion the numbers are far lower.

The other problem is that a big chunk of those 93% are Catholics. Baha'is deny that Jesus is God, that there is a Satan, that Mary was immaculately conceived to avoid her being tainted by original sin, then there is original sin Baha'is don't believe it. Catholics used to believe in the Creation story of Adam and Eve, if they still do, that's yet another thing that Baha'is say is not literally true. And to believe it as literally true, along with those other beliefs would make Catholics deluded... by what Baha'is believe to be true. So when she asked if all those believers in all the religions are deluded, the answer would be "yes". And Baha'is would agree with that.

 

[ppp]

I am sorry, but I do not believe that atheists have really looked at the evidence for Baha'u'llah because they dismiss the possibility that God would use Messengers to communicate, as if they could ever know that was not the case.

To hold the position that no one can look at the same text as you do and not agree with you on its significance is irrational and self centered.
To hold the position that one must "ever know that was not the case" in order to not accept a claim is blatantly foolish.

 

[CG Didymus]

While looking for the maps, I found and article and a some website you might be interested in reading:

How the Hebrew Prophets Predicted the Coming of Baha’u’llah

Prophecies from the Bible

So is the Hebrew word translated correctly as "He" or "They" or can it be either one? If "he" is correct, then fine. It "they" is correct then this is a prophecy about the captives Israelites coming back to Israel. Then, find a map of ancient Assyria and let's look at it and see if it extends to the region where the city of Teheran will be. If not, the "prophecy" should start with "He will come to you from Persia then get sent to Assyria and so on.

 

[CG Didymus]

If the bible is true God exists, and, if God exists the bible is true.

If the Bible is not literally true, then it is fictional stories. If the Bible is made up of fictional stories, then is the main character in those stories, God, also fictional? If the Bible is literally true, we're all in trouble.

 

[CG Didymus]

All the Avatar's share that information.

Regards Tony

Since Baha'u'llah and Krishna are the same kind of beings to Baha'is, does that mean that Baha'u'llah is an Avatar of Vishnu also?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah has said that it is not wrong to see them as the Avatar or God, as long as we do not argue about it and understand the fundamental truth that God is above our knowledge.

So in reality the God we argue about, is a God we can not know, but by knowing the attributes of an Avatar that was sent by God.

So if there was an Avatar in history from the Hindu branch of Faiths that gave a Message from God, I also embrace them as Messengers, the problem being is the records of their life and what they said. Is it what they did and said, or have men written what they want the life and teachings to say?

There is no such thing as God, it is human imagination. No proof has ever been offered for its existence or its need in the world. Those who claim to be sons / messengers / manifestations / Mahdis are either megalomaniacs or charlatans. They play upon our desires and fears for their own ego and benefit.

Theist Hindus do not believe that avataras are messengers of God. Of course an atheist Hindu like me does not even believe in God or avataras. For me, they are mythology.

 

[CG Didymus]

Keep going with those prophecies, you are not going to prove the Baha'i Faith is wrong, you will only prove it is right.

I missed commenting on this earlier. I thought we couldn't prove anything with so called "prophecies" because they are so vague? So now you think that there are prophecies that "prove" the Baha'i Faith is right? Like the Three Woes in Revelation? Now that is the funniest thing I've ever heard. Angel dumping plagues and other horrible things on the lost and wayward world, or Woes, for Baha'is are made into to being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? No, only in a Baha'i interpretation. I don't see it in the context. But that doesn't matter to you, because you don't read the NT or Revelation in context.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything I believe. All I do is present what "I believe" is true.

So what are you trying to do? You start a thread, then when people respond, you tell them what you believe is the truth... which is the Baha'i Faith. Yeah, I guess I agree with you. You don't do it in a convincing way.

 

[CG Didymus]

Clearly, the flaw is in the radios.

Who made the flawed radios? Shouldn't we send the faulty radios back to the designer and have him fix the problem?

 

[CG Didymus]

Probably the reason I SOUND that way to you is because I have certitude of my beliefs

And do we all get that same "certitude" from JW's, Mormons, Evangelicals and other "Bible-believing" Christians. But, one of you, or both of you, are wrong. Yet both, in your beliefs, are absolutely positive in the things you believe are true.

 

[CG Didymus]

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth who brought the “many things” that people living 2000 years ago we not yet ready to hear.

Again, Jesus refers to what will happen in the future in the following verses. Baha’is believe that these verses refer to the Christ Spirit that returned in Baha’u’llah, which was the Comforter that Jesus promised to send from the Father. Please note that these are all about what would happen in the future.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And for 2000 years Christians thought this was talking about the Holy Spirit. It's lucky God finally corrected that erroneous assumption of theirs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no such thing as God, it is human imagination. No proof has ever been offered for its existence or its need in the world. Those who claim to be sons / messengers / manifestations / Mahdis are either megalomaniacs or charlatans. They play upon our desires and fears for their own ego and benefit.

Theist Hindus do not believe that avataras are messengers of God. Of course an atheist Hindu like me does not even believe in God or avataras. For me, they are mythology.

You are entitled to consider that is so.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I just spent two hours looking for maps of ancient Assyria to see if it covers the part of Iran where Tehran is located. I discovered that Tehran was within that boundary. The blue line shows the boundary.

View attachment 43143

View attachment 43144

Well good for you. Where did you find that map? The maps I saw put the boundary short of that area. How about the other question about "He" or "They" will come to you from Assyria? I especially wonder why the NKJV changed it to "They" from the "He" of the KJV?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since Baha'u'llah and Krishna are the same kind of beings to Baha'is, does that mean that Baha'u'llah is an Avatar of Vishnu also?

No matter what a person chooses to call God, there is only One.

The Avatars or Messengers are many and have come in many Names. As such people can see there were many God's, its all a matter of perspective.

The Messengers come to show us there is but One God and man makes of the One God, many Idols.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well good for you. Where did you find that map? The maps I saw put the boundary short of that area. How about the other question about "He" or "They" will come to you from Assyria? I especially wonder why the NKJV changed it to "They" from the "He" of the KJV?

It would not matter how far you wished to break it down CG.

The end of age Prophecies all point to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

If the Bible is not literally true, then it is fictional stories. If the Bible is made up of fictional stories, then is the main character in those stories, God, also fictional? If the Bible is literally true, we're all in trouble.

We do not seem to be in any trouble, so the view that Bible (and all other such books which people take as their scriptures) is fictional is true.