God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Vinayaka]

It's a pity that no Ahmadis are presently posting here on RF.
I have known many people of both communities and really like them.
A discussion/debate between the two could be very beneficial for those seekers on the Abrahamic line.

Ahmadis (at least the ones I've met) are quiet, go about their own thing, and do less proselytising. Little reason to come here.

 

[Vinayaka]

Lame evidence which cannot even stand on its own legs, does not help. 'Bible said so or Kitáb-i-Íqán said so' are in themselves flawed evidences, because they are circular. Have you heard about Napkin-religion?
We do not blindly believe in all what the radios, TVs and newspapers say. Do we?

I believe it to be true because this guy Aup said it was true. Sheesh, some people don't understand what evidence is.

 

[Jedster]

Ahmadis (at least the ones I've met) are quiet, go about their own thing, and do less proselytising. Little reason to come here.

I wrote that because when I first came online(1995) I was in the religions section of CompuServe. It was very active both in forums and live chat.
I saw the Ahmadis debate/discuss with several Muslims(of various sects), all of whom do not recognize Ahmadis as Muslims.
The Ahmadis were extremely vocal and provided an excellent presentation of their case. The discussion/debate went on for months, if not years. (I only stayed on Compuserve for about a year...it was very expensive!)
I have never seen a discussion with such quality since then.(btw it was all friendly)
It is a pity that Ahmadis are hardly represented here.

 

[Vinayaka]

I wrote that because when I first came online(1995) I was in the religions section of CompuServe. It was very active both in forums and live chat.
I saw the Ahmadis debate/discuss with several Muslims(of various sects), all of whom do not recognize Ahmadis as Muslims.
The Ahmadis were extremely vocal and provided an excellent presentation of their case. The discussion/debate went on for months, if not years. (I only stayed on Compuserve for about a year...it was very expensive!)
I have never seen a discussion with such quality since then.(btw it was all friendly)
It is a pity that Ahmadis are hardly represented here.

Thanks. There used to be one, but I haven't seen him for awhile, and his English wasn't all that great. Regardless, there are tons of similarities between the two groups. Good to hear that there can be logical discussions, outside of each side reiterating, "I'm right and you're wrong."

 

[night912]

No, I do not think that the prophecies prove that the Baha'i Faith is right. I believe they are evidence that help to prove that.

evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true:

I understand that you believe, but just because you believe that something is true, that doesn't mean that it's true. And I'm not talking about your religion here, I'm referring prophecies as evidence. It's not evidence. It does nothing to help make the religion any more right then if there wasn't any prophecies. Having evidence that proves the existence and life of Baháʼu'lláh are not evidence of your religion being right. It's just the same as Christians arguing that a historical jesus is evidence for christianity. Here's the most important thing about proving a theistic religion being true, it's harder than proving that god exist. The reason for this is because it actually goes one step further. God is one step closer to your religion being true, but even the existence of a god is not evidence for it. You always say that the messengers of God are the evidence for God. But you're wrong about that. So, Baháʼu'lláh being a messenger of God, is not the evidence for God. It's the evidence for your religion being true. Even if we can prove the existence of God without a shadow of a doubt, that doesn't get us any closer to determining your religion as true. That God could exist and not having any messengers at all. Same as for Jesus. Proving his existence and miracles being genuine is not evidence for christianity being true, until he is proven to be a son of a god.

Quantity of evidence is irrelevant, in the sense that, a one peice of evidence could be sufficient enough to prove a claim, or it might need ten pieces of evidence. "Strength" of an evidence is not dependent on the particular evidence itself. Something is either evidence or it's not. What a lot of people get confused with, resulting in misunderstanding what "evidence" actually is. Evidence is dependent on the claim. Like in that definition, it must help prove that something(the claim) to be true or not. If it cannot fit that standard, then it's not evidence.

So back to the Baháʼu'lláh religion, prophecies regqrding
does nothing to Baháʼu'lláh, does not, in any way, help "prove" the existence of God.
The existence of God must be proven before the evidence forBaháʼu'lláh being a messenger.

 

[columbus]

Clearly, the flaw is in the radios.

The problem is with those who do not know how to use the radios to receive the broadcast message, not in the manufacturer of the radios.

No, you're twisting my metaphor.

If someone designed the radio receivers to pick up AM-FM signals, and the transmitter to broadcast short-wave, then the problem isn't the radios or users. It is the designer.
You're blaming everything but the designer.
Which is irrational.


And as I've said elsewhere, I see this as the true Problem of Evil. Humans like to think we are smart and perceptive, but we're really pretty stupid.
Tom

 

[Muffled]

Actually the Gospel message is plain and clear.

 

[Muffled]

God do not deliver flawed messaged its the hearing of the human that is flawed

Are we then planned to fail? Or is it the failure that requires a cryptic message to spike a person's interest?

 

[Muffled]

I see 3 options as regard to your important message:
a) Reject
b) Accept
c) Neither Reject nor Accept

I picked too long to bother reading.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe it to be true because this guy Aup said it was true. Sheesh, some people don't understand what evidence is.

Remove Aup from the scene and then ask these people to provide any evidence.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are we then planned to fail? Or is it the failure that requires a cryptic message to spike a person's interest?

We are not planned to fail no.
In my understanding it is the ego of the humans that has grown so large that those with a huge ego who can hear the message from God, refuse to accept it, they do not accept other then what their eyes can see or hands can touch.
Everything about God or spiritual living become evil in their own minds.

But those who accept the teachings and work on getting less ego will be able to hear, see and feel both God and Angels. They awake to the truth of the teaching.

 

[Vinayaka]

Remove Aup from the scene and then ask these people to provide any evidence.

No such thing as evidence, just belief.

 

[Muffled]

We are not planned to fail no.
In my understanding it is the ego of the humans that has grown so large that those with a huge ego who can hear the message from God, refuse to accept it, they do not accept other then what their eyes can see or hands can touch.
Everything about God or spiritual living become evil in their own minds.

But those who accept the teachings and work 8n getting less ego will be able to hear, see and feel both God and Angels. They awake to the truth of the teaching.

My wife was one of those who only believed in "see and touch." Then she played with a Ouija board and got herself a demon. That changed her whole perspective on spiritual things

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are a lot of maps on the internet, so I looked and looked till I found one that had dates and good boundaries. Here is the link to the map with dates:

The prophets knew everything, but they did not know the boundaries of Iraq and Iran in 19th Century. That is why they made Bahaollah to be born in Assyria. If the prophets knew better, you would not have had to search for maps which help your point. Good that you were able to find one.

No such thing as evidence, just belief.

My view is to go with science. We cannot do better that.

My wife was one of those who only believed in "see and touch." Then she played with a Ouija board and got herself a demon. That changed her whole perspective on spiritual things

Superstitious people get into all kinds of problems.

 

[Spirit of Light]

My wife was one of those who only believed in "see and touch." Then she played with a Ouija board and got herself a demon. That changed her whole perspective on spiritual things

Ouch, i stay far away from Quija boards, i seen my share of bad happenings when others used it before.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

We are not planned to fail no.
In my understanding it is the ego of the humans that has grown so large that those with a huge ego who can hear the message from God, refuse to accept it, they do not accept other then what their eyes can see or hands can touch.
Everything about God or spiritual living become evil in their own minds.

But those who accept the teachings and work 8n getting less ego will be able to hear, see and feel both God and Angels. They awake to the truth of the teaching.

You have just displayed your own over-inflated ego. Well done. LOL

 

[Spirit of Light]

You have just displayed your own over-inflated ego. Well done. LOL

My post tell my understanding, how is that ego that speak?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

My post tell my understanding, how is that ego that speak?

Because you claim non-believers have over-inflated egos. Meaning you don't!!!

In my understanding it is the ego of the humans that has grown so large that those with a huge ego who can hear the message from God, refuse to accept it, they do not accept other then what their eyes can see or hands can touch.
​

What message from god aren't I hearing?

So you want me to accept something I can't see, touch and know is based on falsehoods.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Because you claim non-believers have over-inflated egos. Meaning you don't!!!

In my understanding it is the ego of the humans that has grown so large that those with a huge ego who can hear the message from God, refuse to accept it, they do not accept other then what their eyes can see or hands can touch.
​

What message from god aren't I hearing?

So you want me to accept something I can't see, touch and know is based on falsehoods.

I have my own ego sometimes too, did i at any point in my reply say i did not?

That you see every religious text as false or made up is your own opinion, and i know from reading other things you written that no matter what i chose to answer you, you will not see it as an answer.

The messages many do not hear is exactly the same as in the teachings of the religions. But i know you will laugh of this too.

I kind of see no reason to try to answer your replies, because we see things very differently.

 

[Trailblazer]

A discussion between all major faiths could indeed bring lots of beneficial results.

I personally do not see faiths labeled as specific faith lines, but as part of a bigger picture giving us our spiritual guidance. Much like the different flowers of one garden.

Regards Tony

When you said "a discussion between all major faiths could indeed bring lots of beneficial results" and that you see faiths "much like the different flowers of one garden" you reminded me of this passage.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated......

The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Whoknoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288