God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

And the followers of the other revealed religions would say the same about their hero. None of you are special here. It's all the same.

That can SAY anything they want to SAY, but their heroes did not clear anything up.
It is not all the same. This is a new age.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you referring to the evidence of a god? What if we atheist prove that evidence is false?

No, I was not referring to evidence of a god.... This is what I was referring to:

The evidence indicates that most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe; and that if they do not have a religion most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger; and that if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

But if you think you can prove my evidence for God is false, have at it.

 

[Trailblazer]

If your god exists why did he wait 500,000 years to reveal himself?

He didn't wait. I believe that God has revealed Himself to man through Messengers from the very beginning of human history.

If men can "misinterpreted, changed and corrupted the religions over time" they can most certainly invent religions. To make contradictory statements in one post is a sign of ignorance. To deny men have the capability to invent religions is stupidity on top of ignorance.

I never said that men do not have that capability. I believe that men invented many religions, but I do not believe that the true religions are inventions of man..

If god keeps sending messengers who arent getting their message across, the method of delivery is false. Or there is no message sender other than men.

But the Messengers did get their messages across and that is why 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

I can give you facts on why we exist, facts that prove the bible lies, facts that for every good thing supposedly from a god there is a bad thing. Early Man put a lot of nature down to god.

Go ahead.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here are my facts, proven beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Man is just one of the millions of species that have lived and died in the lifetime of the Earth. Timeline of evolution

We are not even unique Hominids, Evolution: Humans: Origins of Humankind

We shared the planet with other Hominid species. Just How Many Extinct Types of Human Did Our Ancestors Meet?

These are facts, not opinions, theories, invented stories, etc. Give me your facts that god exist.

And do so without resorting to insulting my intelligence.

There are no facts that prove that God exists, sorry.

 

[Trailblazer]

The original storytellers lied and invented to make their stories more dramatic. They did so out of ignorance because they had no real science that we have today.

So what did they invent stories about? Creation, Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Joshua and Walls of Jericho, Egyptian plagues, etc. These are facts we now know as facts.

Without reverting to a book that's based on lies.

I agree that many of the Bible stories are not true, but tat does not mean that the writers lied. Lying is a deliberate telling of an untruth with intent to deceive. We have no way to know that is what the writers did, as there could be reasons for the fictional stories that we do know know about.

 

[Trailblazer]

I said religions and didn't pick and choose great ones to suit an opinion which is what you do.

So what about the not so great religions are some of them made up?

You tie yourself in knots without even knowing, think a bit harder before you post.

Certainly, many religions were made up by men.

Any religion that was not revealed by God through a Messenger is made up, Imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know there is no such thing as a god because all the evidence points to that.

The existence of the Earth as just 1 planet in a solar system of 500,000,000 different planets.
Evolution is a very long process of species having to adapt to a changing world.
Homo Sapiens are just 1 branch of species, we are not even unique.

If you mean that the evidence of evolution proved that the Creation story in Genesis is wrong I agree, but that does not prove there is no God; that only proves that Genesis was not literally true, it was a metaphor. I do not believe that the earth was created in six days, as I believe in evolution, but I also believe in God.

These are evidence not beliefs. Your beliefs are based on a book that tells untruths as facts. The book is a human compilation made by leaders to keep the people in line. These leaders are in the bible. Moses, most certainly the leaders of the Jews in exile in Babylon, Constantine, etc.

My beliefs are not based upon the Bible, they are based upon the Baha'i Writings. I believe the Bible is true in substance, but not all the stories are literally true, some of them are metaphorical.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you're twisting my metaphor.

If someone designed the radio receivers to pick up AM-FM signals, and the transmitter to broadcast short-wave, then the problem isn't the radios or users. It is the designer.
You're blaming everything but the designer.
Which is irrational.

That would be true if that was actually the case.

I agree that if someone designed the radio receivers to pick up AM-FM signals, and the transmitter to broadcast short-wave, then the problem isn't the radios or users. It is the designer.

So if God had designed humans to only pick up certain signals and then transmitted another kind of signal, then the problem would not be the humans, it would be God.

But that is not what happened. Rather, God designed humans with the ability to pick up the signals He planned to transmit.

God designed humans so that they would be able to recognize the Messengers that He sends, so if humans do not recognize the Messengers then the flaw is in the humans, not in God.

 

[Jos]

I said there is no PROOF that God exists but I did not say there is no EVIDENCE that God exists. I believe that the Messengers of God are the evidence that God exists

Again that's circular reasoning because you're assuming that God has messengers in order to show that God exists.

And with regards to your posts about circular reasoning they are fallacious... the argument below is predicated upon conditionals and thus isn't really an argument, it's more of a hypothetical scenario and it still does nothing to show that you're right.

If what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, God exists, and, if God exists what Baha'u'llah wrote is true.

 

[Jos]

That post was not addressed to you, it was addressed to Jos, because he said he did not like the idea of Messengers.

It's not a matter of me not liking the idea of messengers but rather that I find the idea to be unreasonable.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again that's circular reasoning because you're assuming that God has messengers in order to show that God exists.

I said: I believe that the Messengers of God are the evidence that God exists.
I am not trying to show that God exists…

I was not making a logical argument, so why turn it into one?
Beliefs cannot be proven to be true so they are not subject to logical arguments.

And with regards to your posts about circular reasoning they are fallacious... the argument below is predicated upon conditionals and thus isn't really an argument, it's more of a hypothetical scenario and it still does nothing to show that you're right.

You are correct. What I said above is predicated upon conditionals and thus isn't an argument.
It is a hypothetical scenario and does nothing to show that I am right.

Beliefs cannot be proven to be true so they are not subject to logical arguments.

 

[Jos]

I'm not sure why you're replying to me with this?

I apologize, I made a mistake, I thought I had quoted Trailblazer but I was wrong, sorry. I'll delete it now

 

[Jos]

God did clear it all up when He sent Baha'u'llah. It's all there in the Writings of the Baha'i Faith. It is not God's fault that most people have chosen to reject Baha'u'lah and what He wrote.

People don't usually choose their beliefs especially with respect to the existence of God or the question of which, if any religion/s is/are true so it's not someone's fault if they don't find the evidence to be convincing.

 

[columbus]

God designed humans so that they would be able to recognize the Messengers that He sends, so if humans do not recognize the Messengers then the flaw is in the humans, not in God.

No.
He didn't.
He designed me, and the vast majority of human beings, not to recognize your favorite prophets.

God designed me that way. You can keep blaming me for your God's design problem. But that won't change His design. It just makes you look irrational, which supports my belief that Bahai is fiction.

We are part of God's Creation. Why is that so hard to understand for so many religious folks?

Honestly, I am confident I know why that's so hard to understand. Because religious folks want there to be an ineffable sky king who will fix things(later, usually). They really really want that. So they'll just ignore observation and logic when it interferes with what they prefer to believe.
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not a matter of me not liking the idea of messengers but rather that I find the idea to be unreasonable.

Can you explain why you think the idea is unreasonable?

Can you come up with a better way whereby God could communicate to humans?
If you can, please explain why you think it would be better.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I apologize, I made a mistake, I thought I had quoted Trailblazer but I was wrong, sorry. I'll delete it now

No worries.

 

[Trailblazer]

People don't usually choose their beliefs especially with respect to the existence of God or the question of which, if any religion/s is/are true so it's not someone's fault if they don't find the evidence to be convincing.

Tell that to God.
Tell God that He really did not give you free will.

 

[Jos]

I said: I believe that the Messengers of God are the evidence that God exists.
I am not trying to show that God exists…

I was not making a logical argument, so why turn it into one?
Beliefs cannot be proven to be true so they are not subject to logical arguments.

It doesn't matter if you were making an argument or not, your belief is based on circular reasoning.

You are correct. What I said above is predicated upon conditionals and thus isn't an argument.

You were making an argument, you said yourself that you were making an argument -
Trailblazer said:
"So here is my perfectly valid circular argument:

If what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, God exists, and, if God exists what Baha'u'llah wrote is true."

Beliefs cannot be proven to be true so they are not subject to logical arguments.

If all you're doing is just showing people what you believe and not providing logical arguments or evidence since as you say, beliefs can't be proven to be true, what's the purpose in making arguments and providing prophetic evidence and debating with others? You're contradicting yourself.

 

[Jos]

Can you explain why you think the idea is unreasonable?

Because humans are fallible and aren't good at transmitting or interpreting information

Can you come up with a better way whereby God could communicate to humans?
If you can, please explain why you think it would be better.

God could just appear to everyone and communicate with them like a normal person rather than using third party Messengers who we can't even verify to be telling the truth. I mean, just imagine how bizarre, messed up and unnecessary it would be if a parent wanted to communicate with a child but decided to use messengers to deliver their messages instead of just communicating with them directly. We would think that to be absurd but somehow when God does it it's not absurd. He's all powerful for crying out loud, which means it should take him no effort to communicate with us easily and effectively. If He can communicate with the messengers why can't He communicate with us? And don't give me the "Messengers were special and pure" argument because they were humans just like the rest of us and in fact there are normal people who claim to be in constant contact with God some of whom would claim that God reached out to them, so it is possible for Him to reach out to us and speak to us personally.

 

[Jos]

Tell that to God.
Tell God that He really did not give you free will.

I can't arbitrarily choose to make myself believe, for eg. that Islam is true or that the Sun doesn't exist and is a figment of my imagination... beliefs are formed over time and one is either convinced or not. I can't choose what's convincing or not convincing to my brain.