God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

No.
He didn't.
He designed me, and the vast majority of human beings, not to recognize your favorite prophets.

God designed the vast majority of human beings so they could recognize His Messengers as evidenced by the fact that 84 percent of the world population has a faith and most of those faiths have a Messenger, holy man, or whatever you want to call him.

God designed me that way. You can keep blaming me for your God's design problem. But that won't change His design. It just makes you look irrational, which supports my belief that Bahai is fiction.

God did not design anyone that way. You can keep blaming God for why more people do not recognize the Baha'i Faith, but here are the reasons

1. Most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

2. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

3. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

4. The rest of the world’s population are agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

5. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion do not believe that God communicates via Messengers.

6. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws.

We are part of God's Creation. Why is that so hard to understand for so many religious folks?

Honestly, I am confident I know why that's so hard to understand. Because religious folks want there to be an ineffable sky king who will fix things(later, usually). They really really want that. So they'll just ignore observation and logic when it interferes with what they prefer to believe.
Tom

It is not the Baha'is who are waiting for the ineffable sky king to fix everything that are wrong in this world, it is the Christians. They are waiting for Jesus to return and FIX everything that is wrong. Several years ago I was talking to my Christian coworker about the problem of race prejudice and she said, "we don't need to do anything because Jesus is coming and nothing will happen till He gets here." I wanted to say something but I knew it would not make any difference... Christians will keep waiting for Jesus to return till hell freezes over, but meanwhile this world is going to hell in a bread basket.

Baha'is do not believe that God is going to fox anything, we believe that God delegated that job to humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't matter if you were making an argument or not, your belief is based on circular reasoning.

No, my belief is based upon the evidence.

But it does not matter because even if my beliefs are subject to circular reasoning, the following holds true:
if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

If (premise) what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, the (conclusion) Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God and God exists.

Saying that I am using circular reasoning is just a common atheist ploy but it does not prove my beliefs are not true.
Any logical person would realize that my beliefs are either true or false, and a logical argument is not going to prove that, evidence is what is needed.

You were making an argument, you said yourself that you were making an argument -
Trailblazer said:
"So here is my perfectly valid circular argument:

If what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, God exists, and, if God exists what Baha'u'llah wrote is true."

When I said: "So here is my perfectly valid circular argument” I said that in jest.
I was just emulating what was in that article about the Bible, and it is a conditional statement, not a logical argument.

“If the bible is true God exists, and, if God exists the bible is true.”

But actually that is not necessarily all true.
If the bible is true God exists, but God could still exist even if the bible was not true.

Likewise, if what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, God exists, but God could still exist even if what Baha'u'llah wrote is not true.

If all you're doing is just showing people what you believe and not providing logical arguments or evidence since as you say, beliefs can't be proven to be true, what's the purpose in making arguments and providing prophetic evidence and debating with others? You're contradicting yourself.

I am not debating with anyone in an attempt to prove my beliefs are true. It is others who keep asking me for evidence and bringing up the prophecies. Then I respond.

I am not going to use a logical argument to try to prove my beliefs are true because beliefs are not subject to logical arguments. I have provided what I consider evidence that supports my beliefs on this forum many, many times, but all anyone ever says is “that’s not evidence” because it is not evidence to them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"He Whoknoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words."

How does One Whoknoweth all things, testifieth the truth of words?

 

[columbus]

You can keep blaming God for why more people do not recognize the Baha'i Faith, but here are the reasons

Here's another way you twist what people say to suit your agenda. I don't blame God for anything.
You keep saying I do because the reality doesn't match what you prefer to believe.

You want to believe that you're smarter than I am, or other non-Bahai folks. That you understand. But you don't even understand the stuff I lay out about myself. You think I blame God. I don't. I never said I did. I'm just pointing out that what you claim about God isn't rational.

Maybe it would help if I used the term "The fictional character you refer to as God", instead of just saying God. It seems a little clunky, and unnecessary, but if I have to do that to carry on a conversation, maybe I will.
Or maybe not. BaHai is less important to me than most religions.
Tom

 

[Aupmanyav]

84 percent of the world population has a faith.
1. Most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.
2. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.
3. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”
4. The rest of the world’s population are agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.
5. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion do not believe that God communicates via Messengers.
6. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws.
It is not the Baha'is who are waiting for the ineffable sky king to fix everything that are wrong in this world, it is the Christians.
Baha'is do not believe that God is going to fox anything, we believe that God delegated that job to humans.

Very true. They always said that the majority consists of fools.
1. Looked and found no evidence, only yakati-yak blah blah blah blah, unless one considers the vision of the 'heavenly maid' as evidence.
2. Yeah, we do not start with the prejudice that their is an Allah and that the uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher was his incarnation.
3. Especially when the new religion offers nothing other than showing the Emperor's new clothes.
4. They have checked and have found no reason to believe in an imaginary entity - Allah / God.
5. You tell us one reason why we should accept prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis who offer no evidence.
6. The uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher did not say anything new whatsoever.
Those who wait for apparitions or those who claim that are one and all foolish and superstitious, not just the Christians.
God / Allah is a fiction of human mind. Neither it fixes anything nor it sends messages.

.. but God could still exist even if what Baha'u'llah wrote is not true.

If anyone thinks that God / Allah exists, then let the person provide evidence. Who other than Bahais cares for what the Iranian preacher wrote?

 

[Ancient Soul]

This is the continuation is a discussion I was having with @ QuestioningMind on another thread.
We got off topic so I decided to start a new thread. Anyone is welcome to contribute their ideas if they are so inclined.

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

QuestioningMind said: Apparently that's the case for EVERY religion. I've had Christians tell me after I read the bible that I'd received god's message, but I'm simply rejecting it. Muslims have said as much after I read the Koran, Hindus have said the same after I read the Vedas... now you've said it too. Yet when I read what you claimed were the most convincing messages from your religion, I found them to be just as vague and unconvincing as all of the other religions I've studied.

It is true that if you reject messages from any of the true religions, you are rejecting God’s message, because all of those messages were true. However they were also time-date stamped, so much of what they revealed is no longer pertinent to the age we now live in. The Spiritual teachings are eternal, but the social teachings and laws are not for this age, and the message is no longer needed in this day since it was intended for another age in history. In addition, those messages were not written by a Messenger of God, they were written by man on His behalf, and as such they are not exactly what the Messenger said. In addition to that, the religions themselves have been changed and corrupted by man over the course of time.

Yet when I read what you claimed were the most convincing messages from your religion, I found them to be just as vague and unconvincing as all of the other religions I've studied.

I do not know what messages you are referring to, but reading a few things I have posted is not the way to determine if a religion is actually the truth from God or not.

What is the flaw and who has the flaw; that is the hundred-dollar question. If religious believers believe they already have the truth from God and they refuse to look at a new message, whose fault is that? I think they are the ones who are flawed. I agree that those who are unaware that there is a new message are somewhat screwed, and that is why it is so important for Baha’is to get the message out. However, those people are not completely screwed because If they were really seeking a new religion they could find the message on the internet and contact the Baha’is in their area who are readily available to talk to seekers.

After reading this several times all I can conclude is that you're saying the 'flaw' is in a person ever believing that they already have the truth from god. Even if you're convinced that you have discovered god's TRUE messenger, you shouldn't accept it and instead continue to look for new messengers who might actually have the truth from god.

I can understand why you concluded that but that is not exactly what I am saying. There is no reason they should not believe they have the truth from God in their religion because they were probably raised in that religion and that is what they learned thus believed to be the truth. However, here is the caveat:

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Because all the major religions foretold that another one would come and fulfill the prophecies of their respective religions, they should be looking, or at least open, to a man who makes such a claim. This is particularly true of the Jews and Christians, as the Jews have been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years, and of course we all know that Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. So if a man such as Bahaullah comes claiming to be the Messiah and the return of Christ, they should at least be willing to check Him out in order to determine if He is who He claims to be.

But shouldn't they ALSO be looking at all of the old messengers who claimed to have the truth of god as well? After all, the true messenger may have come 3000 years ago and you were never fortunate enough to have been exposed to their message.

The Messengers that came thousands of years ago were true Messengers, but as I said above the messages that they brought are not what humanity needs in this age. They should be concerned about what humanity needs now, but instead they cling to their older religious traditions because that is comfortable for them. The older religions do not have the answers to the serious problems humanity is facing NOW. If there is an All-Knowing God who cares about humans, don’t you think that God would know what humanity needs in this age and reveal that to humankind? I believe that is exactly what has happened.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

But why would anyone keep seeking a new religion if they're convinced that they've already found the TRUE religion? That's like saying that after you've determined that the statement 2 + 2 = 4 is TRUE, but you're going to continue to seek evidence that maybe 2 + 2 is ACTUALLY 9. Once someone has found an answer for a question, it's illogical to expect them to keep searching for an answer.

I like your logic and you just nipped it in the bud. Why indeed would they seek a new religion of they are convinced that their religion is the one TRUE religion? And therein lies the essential problem. With some exceptions, most people who hold a religious belief believe their religion is true, the only way, the best and the last religion God will ever reveal, so if course they would not be seeking another religion. It is only a small number of people who are open to the idea that God might have revealed a new religion, a religion that does not invalidate any of the religions of the past but rather fulfills the promises of their religion, as noted above.

So it seems to me that if it's just as easy for someone to convince themselves that religion A is true, when it actually isn't, as it is to convince themselves that religion F is true, when it is, THAT'S a huge flaw in the system. If someone picks the wrong religion it should be as evident as someone claiming 2 + 2 = 9. Otherwise it has virtually nothing to do with what religion is actually true, but rather on which religion a person if first introduced to and indoctrinated into. If we determined the truth of mathematical statements the way we determine the truth of religious claims then anyone taught that 2 + 2 = 9 would have just as reliable evidence as those who claim that 2 + 2 = 4.

You raise a valid point, but according to Baha’i beliefs, there is no WRONG religion, although there are religions whose messages and social teachings and laws are outdated. For example, do you believe that adulterers and homosexuals should be put to death, as the Torah teaches? Those ancient laws have been updated by Baha’u’llah who revealed a new Book of Laws with penalties that are pertinent to the age in which we live.

Once someone grasps the idea that there is only one true God and that God reveals different religions through different Messengers over the course of time, according to the ever-changing needs of humanity, called Progressive Revelation, the sky is the limit. Unfortunately most religious people are so mired in their own religious beliefs they cannot see the forest, they only see one tree. I always hope that an atheist might understand because at least atheists are logical and unbiased towards one particular religion, but hurdle for atheists is that they do not believe in a God that would use Messengers to establish religions.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

(Continued on next post)

You are confusing all the so-called "God's laws" with the man made "laws" in all of the religions/mythologies.

Men made up these silly to horrific "laws" to lie to people and make them do their bidding by falsely claiming they are from "god".

 

[Trailblazer]

Because humans are fallible and aren't good at transmitting or interpreting information.

The caveat is that Messengers of God are not ordinary people so they are not fallible. They are infallible. If God spoke to a fallible human directly that person could not infallibly receive the message the way a Messenger can.

God could just appear to everyone and communicate with them like a normal person rather than using third party Messengers who we can't even verify to be telling the truth. I mean, just imagine how bizarre, messed up and unnecessary it would be if a parent wanted to communicate with a child but decided to use messengers to deliver their messages instead of just communicating with them directly.

No, God cannot show up and appear to everyone and communicate with them like a normal person because God is not a person. It is completely illogical to use the parent-child analogy to compare God communicating to humans to a parent communicating with a child.

We would think that to be absurd but somehow when God does it it's not absurd. He's all powerful for crying out loud, which means it should take him no effort to communicate with us easily and effectively.

It is completely irrelevant that God is all powerful, so hypothetically it would take him no effort to communicate with humans easily and effectively. An all powerful god only does what he wants to do, what he chooses to do, and you cannot order God around, tell Him what He should do, which is essentially what you are doing. This patently absurd, to tell an all powerful and all knowing God how He should communicate. I cannot even think of anything more ridiculous than that.

If He can communicate with the messengers why can't He communicate with us? And don't give me the "Messengers were special and pure" argument because they were humans just like the rest of us and in fact there are normal people who claim to be in constant contact with God some of whom would claim that God reached out to them, so it is possible for Him to reach out to us and speak to us personally.

Anyone can believe whatever they want to believe but that does not make it true. Normal people who claim to be in constant contact with God, some of whom would claim that God reached out to them are delusional, as far as I am concerned.

No, the Messengers of God were not just normal people. Had they been normal people God would not have communicated to them.

God does not want to reach out to people and speak to them personally. God sends Messengers to speak to us. If people do not like the Messengers, that is their problem. It is no skin off God’s nose.

There is absolutely no reason why God should speak to anyone personally, even if they could understand Him, which they never could. Who do you think you are that the Almighty God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, should speak to you personally? Such an expectation is the epitome of arrogance. I am sorry if you cannot understand why this is the case.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't arbitrarily choose to make myself believe, for eg. that Islam is true or that the Sun doesn't exist and is a figment of my imagination... beliefs are formed over time and one is either convinced or not. I can't choose what's convincing or not convincing to my brain.

There is some degree of truth to that, you cannot just make yourself believe, but that does not mean you cannot change. Since beliefs are according to what we think and understand, if we are willing to try to think and understand differently, beliefs can change. That is proven by the fact that nonbelievers have become believers, there are many of those on this forum. But if people are not willing to try to think and understand differently, they will not change. If they make up their minds that God should/would do x, y, or z if He exists instead of trying to ascertain what God might have actually done, then they will never move forward.

 

[Ancient Soul]

@ QuestioningMind

No, that does not make the system flawed because there are reasons most people won’t look into the evidence that has nothing to do with the quality of the evidence. The main reason people won’t look is because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. Secondly, if they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. Thirdly, if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

I agree, it all comes down to the quality of the evidence. And when the evidence is based on the words of a supposed messenger from god, it's obvious that you get people who feel they have sufficient evidence to conclude that 2 + 2 = 9 or 2 + 2 = 3 or 2 + 2 = 1087. You on the other hand have concluded that 2 + 2 =4. Now, are you still STILL looking for evidence that maybe 2 + 2 =9 or 3 or 1087? If not, why not? Aren't you committing the same flaw that you claim the people who are attached to what they already believe are committing?

I do not have to look for evidence that shows that one of the other religions is TRUE, because I already believe that are all true, and that is the hundred-dollar difference between a Baha’i and a believer in the older religions, who believes that only their religion is true. Does it make sense to you that one of the older religions is the only true religion and all the other religions are false? For example, 29% of the world population is Christians. Would a loving and just God exclude 71% of the world population from knowing the truth about Him? Does it make sense to you that an older religion that does not even have any solutions to the world’s problems, what humanity needs I this age, is the one true religion?

The other very important point I would like to make is that the evidence that a religion is true should never be based solely on the words of a supposed messenger from God; I mean it should never be based upon His claims, because that would constitute circular reasoning. The real proof of Baha’u’llah is His own Person, His early life, but particularly in the 40 year Mission He completed, which can be read about in books that chronicled the history of the Baha’i Faith. What Baha’u’llah wrote is also part of the evidence; His social and spiritual teachings and the message He revealed that has the solutions for the problems the world faces in this age. The prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming and the predictions He made that came to pass are also part of the evidence.

And as an atheist I can tell you that it's not that I don't 'like the idea' of a messenger from god, but simply that all of the messages people have claimed are messages from god are all either so vague they could mean virtually anything or are no different than an accurate prediction.

I do not know which ‘messages’ you are referring to that are vague, but there is nothing vague about what Baha’u’llah wrote and there is nothing vague about His predictions. In fact all the predictions He made have come to pass just as He predicted. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Moreover, Baha’u’llah also made predictions that are coming to pass in the world right now, which can verified if we compare His Writings with what is going on all over the world right now. How do you think He could have known what was going to happen in the future over 150 years ago? Sure, there have been so-called prophets who have made accurate predictions, but show me any other man who has accurately predicted ALL the things Baha’u’llah has predicted?

The Baha’i Faith is not only for people who have not found another religion. It is applicable to everyone and everyone can look at a new religion – if they choose to. This is not a flaw in the method; it is a flaw in the religious people who won’t even consider a new religion because they are so mired in their older religions, and having been indoctrinated is no excuse because we all have free will to choose.

Again, why would people who are convinced they have found the RIGHT religion be searching for a new religion? And how is your belief that you're religion is true any different from their beliefs?

I think I already answered those questions above. In short, I do not believe that only MY religion is true. That is the primary way my religion is different from the other religions.

Are you STILL spending your life studying the words conveyed from the estimated 124,000 to 224,000 that individuals have claimed were prophets over the course of history to see if maybe one of THEM is the true messenger from god?

Why would I need to study the words of every self-proclaimed prophet to determine if they were true prophets? Do I need to look at every house in my city before I decide which one to purchase? Do I need to look at every man in town before I decide who I will marry?

Baha’u’llah revealed who the true Messengers of God of the past were, so once I accepted His claim to be the Messenger of God for this age, I accepted everything He wrote as the truth from God.

I mean, it would require many centuries for an individual to study and evaluate ALL of the claimed prophecies that have been made. So clearly there are thousands of prophetic claims you have not yet investigated, yet you appear to be making the same flawed mistake you accuse others of if you've concluded that this new messenger you found is the true messenger. You've freely chosen to stop focusing on all of the other possible prophets and concentrate exclusively on this new messenger.

There would be no reason for me to focus on ALL possible past Messengers, because if they did not even found a major religion there would be no reason for me to believe that were worth checking out. Moreover, I don’t even have to take Bahaullah’s word for it; I could determine who they were by looking at the empirical evidence, those being the religions in the world: BBC - Religion: Religions

There would only be a reason for me to look at any present claimants to be Messengers of God. And that would lead me straight to Baha’u’llah and nowhere else, because no other man has fulfilled the prophecies in the Bible for the return of Christ. As I recall, I posted some of the very specific prophecies He fulfilled, but t you never responded to that post, so I do not know if you read it.

It would not take many centuries to evaluate all the Bible prophecies and in fact that evaluation has already been completed by some Baha’is. The book that is most comprehensive is called Thief in the Night by William Sears. He studied the Bible prophecies for seven years and compared them to what happened before Baha’u’llah appeared and what happened during His life. Sears even went to the holy land for confirmation before he completed his book. Why would I need to reinvent the wheel when he already proved his case? I can read the same Bible he read and I can also read about the history of the Baha’i Faith to confirm his findings. It is all there in black and white for anyone who is a true seeker.

(Continued on next post)

Your stopping and looking no further for any spiritual spiritual truths outside of this, yet ANOTHER man made religion/mythology Baha’u’llah", is a perfect example of the saying that:

A decision is finally made when one tires of trying to make a decision.

Now you seem to be stuck in spiritual stagnation.

I came away with a depressing feeling after reading your above writings, that someone would torture oneself like that, having to blindly follow the writings of man, yet mixed with gladness that God has always given me all the spiritual answers I seek without having to go through all that man made garbage.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Trailblazar said: Messages get received over the course of time.

Fine. But, question here is.. will the message still get received, if the receiver is not yet ready to receive it ? Isn't this like pouring water on a closed bottle ?

Trailblazar said: You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.
Question here is also the same.
Will the message still get received, if the receiver is not yet ready to receive it ? Isn't this like pouring water on the closed bottle ?

Its NOT rejecting, its like bottle NOT opened yet.

There's a very big difference between.. Rejecting VS NOT opened yet.

Conclusion: All answers are useless, until there's a question.

If you really want to do something, try to open that bottle in first place, or do something so that question may arise in that mind. Thereafter, pour the answer in it.

But you overlooked the most important question of all.

What if the religious "message" is just man made garbage?

 

[Trailblazer]

How does One Who knoweth all things, testifieth the truth of words?

"The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

God, who knows all things, testifies to the truth of those words through Baha'u'llah.

 

[Ancient Soul]

In the first century Jesus spoke words to the apostles alone (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13) (Heb.1:1-3) (Jn 17:8,10).

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Jn 14:26)

We learn in (2Tim.3:16,17) the Lords revelation was COMPLETE (perfect). (James 1:25)

We learn from (2Peter 1:3) that men in the first century were given all things pertaining to life and godliness.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,

(Deut.4:2) (1Cor.4:6) (Rev. 22:18,19)

Since they received ALL TRUTH in the first century there is no reason to be looking for more revelation.

If the above information is NOT TRUE, then none of the word of God cannot be trusted.

I believe that's called a double negative:

"then none of the word of God cannot be trusted"

And actually, none of the bible should be trusted.

 

[Ancient Soul]

"The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

God, who knows all things, testifies to the truth of those words through Baha'u'llah.

That's even funny.

Just because a person CLAIMS his/her so-called "god":

"testifieth to the truth of these words"

is laughable "proof" of their claims.

ALL bombastic cult leaders make various similar false claims, none of them are true either.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's another way you twist what people say to suit your agenda. I don't blame God for anything.
You keep saying I do because the reality doesn't match what you prefer to believe.

You want to believe that you're smarter than I am, or other non-Bahai folks. That you understand. But you don't even understand the stuff I lay out about myself. You think I blame God. I don't. I never said I did. I'm just pointing out that what you claim about God isn't rational.

Referring to God, you said:
He designed me, and the vast majority of human beings, not to recognize your favorite prophets.

God designed me that way. You can keep blaming me for your God's design problem. But that won't change His design. It just makes you look irrational, which supports my belief that Bahai is fiction.

So who is it that is trying to look smarter? God has a design problem? Are you smarter than an all-knowing God? Could you design humans better than God? What do I claim about God that isn't rational?

Did you not say that it was not humans who are to blame for not getting the messages of God? So if humans are not to blame then God must be to blame, unless you do not blame anyone. But still, God has a design problem, meaning God designed humans incorrectly, so that is a criticism of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

God has always given me all the spiritual answers I seek without having to go through all that man made garbage.

Lol.

 

[columbus]

Referring to God, you said:
He designed me, and the vast majority of human beings, not to recognize your favorite prophets.

God designed me that way. You can keep blaming me for your God's design problem. But that won't change His design. It just makes you look irrational, which supports my belief that Bahai is fiction.

So who is it that is trying to look smarter? God has a design problem? Are you smarter than an all-knowing God? Could you design humans better than God? What do I claim about God that isn't rational?

Did you not say that it was not humans who are to blame for not getting the messages of God? So if humans are not to blame then God must be to blame, unless you do not blame anyone. But still, God has a design problem, meaning God designed humans incorrectly, so that is a criticism of God.

Just replace the word God with "the fictional character referred to as God" and we'll be getting somewhere.
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

Just replace the word God with "the fictional character referred to as God" and we'll be getting somewhere.
Tom

Okay.

 

[Neuropteron]

Greetings,

"All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial [...] for setting things straight, that the man of God may be fully equiped and fully competent for every good work" 2 Timothy 3:16,17

Jesus, God's own son, quoted God's written and spirit inspired scripture rather than speaking of his own originality (ie. 'It is written' Matthew 4:4 ); likewise the apostles supported the holy scriptures as the accurate and reliable expression of God stating under inspiration "prophecy was at no time brought by man's will but men spoke from God as they were borne along by Holy spirit" (2 Peter 1:19-21)

This 'word of God' is very much alive as a result: "the word of God is alive and exerts power" (Hebrews 4:12)

Therein is the evidence of inspiration that surpasses and differentiates it from both human and spirit inspired expressions.

"Do not believe every inspired expression beloved ones, but test the expression to see if it originates with God" ( John 4: 1-6) by comparison with what is already known to be inspired to determine if it is truly inspired of God.

Furthermore, the apostle Paul recommended the trust attributable to God's now complete inspired word stating "even if we or an angel from heaven were to declare to you anything different" to what is written it was not to be accepted. (Galatians 1:8) Thus we are encouraged "do not go beyond what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Following Armagedon the Bible book of Revelation referes to new 'scrolls' being opened. These scrolls also will be of divine inspiration but until such time we have the complete word of God to guide the faithful in a narrow road to everlasting life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God, who knows all things, testifies to the truth of those words through Baha'u'llah.

What a pitiable Allah / God who does not have any proof other than what an uneducated 19th Century Iranian snake-oil seller says, who himself does not have the any proof of what he says - in 15th Century English! What knoweth, what testifieth!

 

[CG Didymus]

It would not matter how far you wished to break it down CG.

The end of age Prophecies all point to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

But doesn't it matter to "personally investigate" the claims of religions and their messengers to see if it is true? Like one religion makes the outrageous claim that their leader will rise from the dead. They use a Bible verse that says that God won't let his Holy One see corruption, meaning his body won't rot away. Should we question that claim? Another one they make is that he will be born of a virgin. They use one verse in Isaiah that might mean "virgin" or it just might only mean a "young maiden". But if we investigate, does the context in Isaiah clearly point to their messenger? Upon investigation, I don't think it does. How about you... have you read Isaiah in context and agree with them? Have you broken it down and think that the one verse is about their leader, even though the context doesn't have anything to do with him? Yet, they make the same claims about their leader as Baha'is make about theirs... the prophecies point to him... only to them, because they want them too. Should they or you be trusted? Or, should we check them out, thoroughly?

This "prophecy" might say "He" will come from Assyria, or it might say "They" will come from Assyria. Your leader came from Persia. That is not Assyria. But, for a time, Assyria ruled over part of Persia. Is that close enough? Let's double check. Who made the claim that these verses in Micah were about your leader? If that person wasn't your infallible leader, then was it one of his "fallible" followers? Not all translations say "He". But this person used a version, the KJV, that uses "He" and not "They". Should we just assume this is the correct translation, or should we double check?

End of the age prophecies? Like there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end? There will be many "false" Messiahs but don't believe them? What are we supposed to think? There are still wars and rumors of wars? Does that mean it is not yet the end and the "true" Messiah hasn't come yet? Only fake Messiahs that are making claims are to deceive many? Who do you say were those "many" false Messiahs that deceived many are? If your leader came in the mid 1800's, then who were these fake ones just before that time that deceived many?

It does "not" matter? No, it does matter. Is your guy, The Guy? Let's break it down.