God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[CG Didymus]

Or maybe there is one who is right and all the rest are wrong.

And that's why you keep getting asked for proof and evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come...

23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.​

Was all this about 1844? Did all this happen in 1844? Who were the false messiahs in 1844?

Some of that happened before 1844 and some happened after that.
There have been many false messiahs and there still are many. The verses do not say the false Messiahs would come in 1844.

And then your special verses that you like to quote. Why do you take those out of context? Do you even know the context? Why do you take other verses as symbolic but these as literal? You have said you don't read or study the NT, so how did you find these four verses? Do you just look for verses, and take them out of context to "prove" your point? But then again, just like with Matthew, who is this John? Why do we trust that what he said really is true? Did he follow Jesus around and take notes? How long after Jesus died and raise from the dead did this John write this stuff? But, if we are going to take John at his word, he said he saw the risen Jesus alive. And if it is the same John that wrote Revelation, he was expecting Jesus to come back.

I'll let you wrestle with all of that because it does not matter to me what the Bible says about the return of Christ, unless I am engaged in a conversation with a Christian.

If I see things in the Bible I recognize as an eternal spiritual truth from God, I will quote it, but not to prove anything, but rather just because I like it.

I do not need to prove anything to anyone because that is not the job Baha'u'llah gave me to do.
I already did my job of investigating His claim so I know who Baha'u'llah was.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that's why you keep getting asked for proof and evidence.

I have explained what the evidence is and even provided the links to the books people can read, but AI ma not going to do other people's homework. If they care enough they can do the research, and if not they won't... It will not make any different to God because God us Self-Sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can have one without the other.

That is logically impossible.
When you believe something, then there is a claim that is being believed. It is what "believing" means: to accept a claim as accurate / correct.

If I ask you "what do you believe?", then your answer will be the claim that is being believed.

I can say “I believe it” without claiming it is true, and after all

That makes no sense.
To believe = to accept as true.

logically speaking my believing it does not make it true.

You can certainly say that again. Yes, believing a claim doesn't make the claim true. It only means that you accept it as true.

No, I believe Baha'u'llah, who was more than an ordinary human, and I believe He was infallible.

You believe you believe you believe.
And as you yourself have just stated, you believing it, "does not make it true".

I have never refused to share that evidence, I have shared it many times; but all atheists say "that's not evidence" so I see no point in sharing it again.

Link to some examples?

People can and do believe all sorts of things that are not true, but that does not mean that what I believe is not true; it could be true or false.

Neither does it mean that the woman who drowned her 3 kids was wrong. To my knowledge, nobody has ever demonstrated that she was wrong. She's probably in jail now. But does that mean that god didn't actually command her to drown her 3 kids? No, it doesn't. Can you demonstrate that it was all just in her head? No, you can't.

The point is: mere beliefs are a dime a dozen.

I asked because you were complaining about what God actually does so I wanted to see if you could come up with something better.

Yet you already decided before hand that I couldn't. And the only reason you believed that is because you have simply decided to believe that god is mysterious and infallible and if some action of his seems extremely stupid to us, by definition it must mean that we simply don't get it.

It's one of those cop-outs you always use. It basically comes down to "heads I win, tails you lose".

Even if you could that is a moot point because there is no reason to believe that God is trying to make His presence and Will known to everyone.

If I had the time, I could explain how your plan would not work and how Baha'u'llah's Plan will work.

If "the plan" is to play hide and seek and deceive the vast majority of humans, I'll agree.

God's Plan is no mystery. Baha'u'llah laid it all out with His Own Pen, and it is available online in the Baha'i Reference Library for everyone to read or download for free.

Wouldn't you like to know, it would change your life, but maybe it is best to let sleeping dogs lie, because I am not sure you would like the life of a Baha'i, as it is not an easy life.

I have no reason to waste my time with that. If I had to give a "fair chance" to every single religious idea out there "just in case", I'ld have to spend multiple lifetimes on that.

So I filter ideas a priori, based on evidence.
I let the evidence and data of reality point the direction. I see no use at all in arbitrarily "choosing" a direction.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You have a legitimate point.
They follow false prophets because they are naive and foolish. Why do so many people vote for Trump?
I rest my case.

Or maybe there is one who is right and all the rest are wrong.

So prove your prophet is genuine. It's a reasonable request seeing as you afree there are so manyfalse prophets and it's so easy for them to con us.

That is if you can, if you can't just dodge proving yourself.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It has nothing to do with God, because God is not the one who is responsible for getting the message of Baha'u'llah out.

And it will only be through the work of the Baha'is that the message of Baha'u'llah gets out.

If it is a con, it would be the biggest con job ever foisted upon humanity.

That's right, that is the beauty of free will.

So Baha'u'llah is in charge of getting his message across. Where does god come into it?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Trailblazer said: I never said only the messengers get the messages and in a form, us mere mortals won't understand.
In fact, I said the exact opposite. I said that the Messengers get the message in a form humans CAN understand; and that is the whole reason why God uses Messengers, because their communication is understandable to humans.

No, I did not forget.
What's your point?
Cut to the chase.

But you did, give it up I caught you out.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is logically impossible.
When you believe something, then there is a claim that is being believed. It is what "believing" means: to accept a claim as accurate / correct.

If I ask you "what do you believe?", then your answer will be the claim that is being believed.

Correct, I believe the claim because I have accepted it as true.

What I have been trying to say is that I do not CLAIM it is true, because I cannot PROVE it is true, since no religious beliefs can be proven true.

That makes no sense.
To believe = to accept as true.

I can say “I believe it” without claiming it is true.
I accept it is true but I do not claim it is true.

You can certainly say that again. Yes, believing a claim doesn't make the claim true. It only means that you accept it as true.

And that is why I accept it is true but I do not claim it is true.

Link to some examples?

As I said yesterday in another post to you, it would take too long to find those posts I had posted and give you links to them, so I found my Word document and posted what I believe the evidence is again.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

The point is: mere beliefs are a dime a dozen.

Mere beliefs are but true beliefs are not.

Yet you already decided before hand that I couldn't. And the only reason you believed that is because you have simply decided to believe that god is mysterious and infallible and if some action of his seems extremely stupid to us, by definition it must mean that we simply don't get it.

I did not decide that for the reasons you gave. The only thing I can say is that you could not come up with something better than God has already come up with because as a matter of logic, an All-Knowing God has to know the best way to communicate to humans. So even if something seems stupid to you and other atheists, if that is what God used as a way to communicate, it has to be the best way, because an All-Knowing God would have to know the best way. Do you understand?

It's one of those cop-outs you always use. It basically comes down to "heads I win, tails you lose".

Why make it a win/lose game? This is not a game to me, it is serious business. I am not trying to be 'one up' on atheists, I am sincerely trying to communicate what I believe.

If "the plan" is to play hide and seek and deceive the vast majority of humans, I'll agree.

God has not played hide and seek. He clearly revealed Himself through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Just because not that many people have found the Baha'i Faith to date, for various reasons, THAT does not mean God is hiding.

I have no reason to waste my time with that. If I had to give a "fair chance" to every single religious idea out there "just in case", I'ld have to spend multiple lifetimes on that.

I never suggested that you look at every religious idea that ever existed. I looked only at the Baha'i Faith and then after looking at it I knew it was the Truth so I joined. I did not look at all the other religions before I joined, why would I have to? I got married 3 weeks after I met my husband and we are still married 35 plus years later. I never compared him with other men before we got married. I just knew he was the one.

I realize that all people do not make decisions the way I do but my point is that you do not have to look at all the religions before deciding is one is true. Why would you look at ancient religions that have nothing that humanity needs in this new age? Maybe you do not realize that religion has to have a practical side to be of any real use to humans; it is not just about praying and meditating and worshiping God. To be of any real value, religion should address the problems the world is facing. Do you see any of the older religions such as Christianity addressing the world's problems?

This is what I meant when I said that God has a Plan, and that plan was revealed to Baha'u'llah who wrote it down. The Bahai Faith has a spiritual side and a practical side as it addresses the problems the world is facing and it has solutions to them.

So I filter ideas a priori, based on evidence.
I let the evidence and data of reality point the direction. I see no use at all in arbitrarily "choosing" a direction.

I fully agree that this is the best approach, let the evidence be your guide.

If you look at what I consider evidence for Baha'u'llah being a Messenger of God and say "that's not evidence" I cannot help you any further. You can try to find evidence like that for any of the older religions, but you won't find it. I am talking about verifiable evidence, as all of what I listed above can be verified since Baha'u'llah appeared in modern history and there are accurate historical records of His life and mission. That does not prove He got a Revelation for God, because nobody can prove that as a fact; all one can do is prove it to themselves, and then they know.

 

[Trailblazer]

So prove your prophet is genuine. It's a reasonable request seeing as you afree there are so manyfalse prophets and it's so easy for them to con us.

That is if you can, if you can't just dodge proving yourself.

No, that is not a reasonable request. It is not my job to prove anything to anyone except myself. I can tell you what the evidence is and answer your questions about the Baha'i Faith, but that is where my job ends.

 

[Trailblazer]

So Baha'u'llah is in charge of getting his message across. Where does god come into it?

Baha'u'llah was only responsible to garner a few followers who would carry the message of Baha'u'llah to other people. After that the message is carried to future generations by word of mouth and by the written Word.

God does not come into it at all, as God finished His job after He revealed His message to Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you did, give it up I caught you out.

You did not catch me doing anything. If you had caught me you would be able to tell me precisely what you caught me doing, but you can't.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, that is not a reasonable request. It is not my job to prove anything to anyone except myself. I can tell you what the evidence is and answer your questions about the Baha'i Faith, but that is where my job ends.

You can't prove anything to anyone but yourself and the already conned. That's your massive problem because you have totally failed to give us a list of what following Baha'ism will give us. Your notion about living in a world of pace is always going to require men with guns to protect us from the evil some choose to do. The fact that you have now adopted this life of peace only confirms my opinion because you have men with guns to protect you. Unless you live in the worse of neighbourhoods or countries.

What does following Baha'ism give us?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You did not catch me doing anything. If you had caught me you would be able to tell me precisely what you caught me doing, but you can't.

You answered one of my quotes, very badly.

Answer them all and we will let the others judge for themselves who is right.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Baha'u'llah was only responsible to garner a few followers who would carry the message of Baha'u'llah to other people. After that the message is carried to future generations by word of mouth and by the written Word.

God does not come into it at all, as God finished His job after He revealed His message to Baha'u'llah.

So the method of delivering messages is poor at best.

So tell me what's in it for us to follow Baha'u'llah. Because so far you only manage to quote his ramblings which promise nothing.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does following Baha'ism give us?

That is a huge subject as it gives us many things. You'd have to be more specific.

 

[Trailblazer]

You answered one of my quotes, very badly.

Answer them all and we will let the others judge for themselves who is right.

I do not know what quotes you are referring to.

I do not care if others think i am right. This is not a contest, at least not for me.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That is a huge subject as it gives us many things. You'd have to be more specific.

Try giving me a list of what we can get from following Baha'u'llah. And stop avoiding answering the question. Because if you can't answer it we can draw our own conclusions.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I do not know what quotes you are referring to.

I do not care if others think i am right. This is not a contest, at least not for me.

You are free to believe whatever you want to, but I believe that God has conferred upon the Messengers of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess, and that is why they alone understand communication from God.

You started the thread with.

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

So does everyone receive the message and choose to reject it, do just the Messengers receive it, or is the method bad because it's such a mess?

You assume god chooses to stay silent to us mere mortals. This leaves the whole Messengers posts open to exploitation by charlatans. That's a flaw or a con because no god exists. You can't even tell us how the good messengers get their messages.

 

[Trailblazer]

So the method of delivering messages is poor at best.

It has to be the best way if God chose it, and God is All-Knowing and All-Wise. Moreover, the method has always accomplished what God wants to accomplish, which is all that matters. Since God is the one doing the communicating, God sets the goals of that communication. Humans do not set goals for God.

So tell me what's in it for us to follow Baha'u'llah. Because so far you only manage to quote his ramblings which promise nothing.

Among other things, you gain eternal life in heaven, which is much more than anything you could ever gain in this material world, which is only transitory, a very small part of our total existence.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Trailblazer]

Try giving me a list of what we can get from following Baha'u'llah. And stop avoiding answering the question. Because if you can't answer it we can draw our own conclusions.

I am not making a list for you.

You get the Truth from God for this age, you get the knowledge of who God is, and you get to find out what God's will is for you. By recognizing Baha'u'llah, following His teachings, and observing the ordinances, you can live as God wants you to live in this world and you also gain eternal life in heaven, as I said in my previous post.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

By knowing God you can also love God and feel God's love, and the love of God is something nobody can ever take away from you.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261