God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I am not making a list for you.

You get the Truth from God for this age, you get the knowledge of who God is, and you get to find out what God's will is for you. By recognizing Baha'u'llah, following His teachings, and observing the ordinances, you can live as God wants you to live in this world and you also gain eternal life in heaven, as I said in my previous post.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

By knowing God you can also love God and feel God's love, and the love of God is something nobody can ever take away from you.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261

So you get to love a being you've never seen, can't prove, has nothing for you, gives you nothing, can't list any benefits, doesn't love you back, etc.

Well done!!!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

You are free to believe whatever you want to, but I believe that God has conferred upon the Messengers of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess, and that is why they alone understand communication from God.

You started the thread with.

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

So does everyone receive the message and choose to reject it, do just the Messengers receive it, or is the method bad because it's such a mess?

The Messengers receive the message and they reveal it to everyone else. Some people choose to reject it and others choose to accept it.

You assume god chooses to stay silent to us mere mortals. This leaves the whole Messengers posts open to exploitation by charlatans. That's a flaw or a con because no god exists. You can't even tell us how the good messengers get their messages.

God is not silent because God speaks through the Messengers. It does not matter if there are charlatans (false messengers), that is not a flaw. It is our job to determine who the true Messengers are by looking at the evidence they present to support their claims.

I told you as much as I know about how the Messengers get their messages, through the Holy Spirit. That is as much as anyone can know. Why would it matter exactly how they get their messages?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you get to love a being you've never seen, can't prove, has nothing for you, gives you nothing, can't list any benefits, doesn't love you back, etc.

Well done!!!!!

That is not what I said so it is a straw man you made.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did this Matthew write the gospel that bears his name?

Did Matthew write his own gospel?

The gospel itself does not specify an author, but he was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.

Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

But these are Hindus. A religion recognized by the Baha'i Faith as being true. Or, it's a true religion but doesn't necessarily have true beliefs and practices? Kind of like the people, the followers, of the religion made somethings up?

I believe that the people, the followers of the religion, changed a lot of the religion over time.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The Messengers receive the message and they reveal it to everyone else. Some people choose to reject it and others choose to accept it.

God is not silent because God speaks through the Messengers. It does not matter if there are charlatans (false messengers), that is not a flaw. It is our job to determine who the true Messengers are by looking at the evidence they present to support their claims.

I told you as much as I know about how the Messengers get their messages, through the Holy Spirit. That is as much as anyone can know. Why would it matter exactly how they get their messages?

Prove it.

Because if you can't it does matter that there are many charlatans.

 

[Trailblazer]

Prove it.

Because if you can't it does matter that there are many charlatans.

As a matter of logic, it does not matter if there are many charlatans because that does not mean there cannot be true Messengers of God, not anymore that junk cars in a junkyard proves there are no new cars in the new car lot down the street.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What I have been trying to say is that I do not CLAIM it is true, because I cannot PROVE it is true, since no religious beliefs can be proven true.

Not all religious beliefs are unprovable, but the problem is that you are fixed in one and you do not look beyond it. What is the fun in believing something which cannot be proved to be true? I would not tolerate it for even one second if I found that my belief is not true.

As a matter of logic, it does not matter if there are many charlatans because that does not mean there cannot be true Messengers of God, not anymore that junk cars in a junkyard proves there are no new cars in the new car lot down the street.

Start with prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis after you have established the existence of your Allah. There is no evidence even for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not all religious beliefs are unprovable, but the problem is that you are fixed in one and you do not look beyond it. What is the fun in believing something which cannot be proved to be true? I would not tolerate it for even one second if I found that my belief is not true.

What religious beliefs do you think can be proven true and how can they be proven true?

I have proven that my beliefs are true to myself, and that is all that matters.
Baha'u'llah did not enjoin us to prove He was a Messenger of God to anyone except ourselves.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that the people, the followers of the religion, changed a lot of the religion over time.

The same has happened with Bahai religion also. Because Abdul Baha, Shoghi and your House of Justice (sic.) decide the meaning of what Bahaollah said. You would say that they are authorized. There are many in the world who take advantage of being authorized for something. Why should we take the explanations of Abdul Baha, Shoghi and the House of Justice as true.
Why not accept what the latest messenger from Allah, i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas said?
We have many manifestations of Allah in India. There were two Sai Babas (Shirdi and Puttaparthy), there is one Sadhguru, there is one female messenger of Allah, Ma Amritanandamayi (Lit. translation of her name - one with inexhaustible happiness), Nithiyananda and Srisri Ravishankar. There are others as well if you would like to know more. Take your pick.

 

[Trailblazer]

The same has happened with Bahai religion also. Because Abdul Baha, Shoghi and your House of Justice (sic.) decide the meaning of what Bahaollah said. You would say that they are authorized. There are many in the world who take advantage of being authorized for something. Why should we take the explanations of Abdul Baha, Shoghi and the House of Justice as true.

You don't have to and I don't have to either... I can read the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Why not accept what the latest messenger from Allah, i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas said?
We have many manifestations of Allah in India. There were two Sai Babas, there is one Sadhguru, there is one female messenger of Allah, Ma Amritanandamayi (Lit. translation of her name - one with inexhaustible happiness). There are others as well if you would like to know more. Take your pick.

I do not believe any of these individuals are Messengers of God and you already know why.

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

It literally disgusts me if they claim to be Messengers of God and if they do I hope they get what is coming to them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What religious beliefs do you think can be proven true and how can they be proven true?
I have proven that my beliefs are true to myself, and that is all that matters.
Baha'u'llah did not enjoin us to prove He was a Messenger of God to anyone except ourselves.

How could Bahaollah say anything other than this as he knew it very well that what he was saying is without any evidence all through - his Allah and him being the manifestation of Allah.

Your beliefs are proven to yourself of people from your religion. My beliefs are proven by science - that at the time of Big Bang, what existed was 'physical energy'. All mass in the world is conversion of that energy into mass. That is why in Advaita Hinduism (non-duality), I do not accept the existence of God/Allah as well as any difference between two people, animals, vegetation and non-living things. Advaita doe not accept any kind of differentiation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You don't have to and I don't have to either... I can read the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
I do not believe any of these individuals are Messengers of God and you already know why.
It literally disgusts me if they claim to be Messengers of God and if they do I hope they get what is coming to them.

You cannot read what Bahaollah had written, that will be in Persian or Arabic. You are reading translations and material edited by Abdul Baha and Shoghi.
You are again indulging in a cardinal mistake and not following what Bahaollah said. You should accept when people claim to be prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis. It is a sin to do that.
That is what I think of Bahaollah as well. It is disgusting that Bahaollah claimed to be a manifestation of Allah but had no evidence to prove that.

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot read what Bahaollah had written, that will be in Persian or Arabic. You are reading translations and material edited by Abdul Baha and Shoghi.

They were translated into English by Shoghi Effendi, they were not edited.

You are again indulging in a cardinal mistake and not following what Bahaollah said. You should accept when people claim to be prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis. It is a sin to do that.

Baha'u'llah never said that I should accept when people claim to be prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations.

That is what I think of Bahaollah as well. It is disgusting that Bahaollah claimed to be a manifestation of Allah but had no evidence to prove that.

You can think whatever you want to. Baha'u'llah told us what the evidence is and it is evidence to me...
Not only is it evidence to me, it is proof.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does following Baha'ism give us?

If one wants to get something from having Faith, one is looking at the wrong motivation.

Faith is about the giving of oneself to others and only in that way, can we find what Faith has to offer our heart.

So if one has a lot to give, to give of their time, their resources, their heartfelt help, then one can consider they may offer it all in Faith of a better world.

If one wants to accumulate all that, in an attempt to be happy, Faith is not for them.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the method of delivering messages is poor at best.

So tell me what's in it for us to follow Baha'u'llah. Because so far you only manage to quote his ramblings which promise nothing.

A materialistic mind wanting to feed self gratification will never want to find faith.

Only when one considers what Faith can do for all humanity, will growth happen.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

They were translated into English by Shoghi Effendi, they were not edited.

Well, I cannot vouch for it. For all we know he may have.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I cannot vouch for it. For all we know he may have.

I see that is not possible. The documents are preserved and were signed and sealed by Baha'u'llah. They are available.

All translation by Shoghi Effendi can be reviewed in the future, but at the same time there was no one better than Shoghi Effendi to translate, as he was also in tune to what Baha'u'llah offered.

It is the standard the current translators strive to match.

Now, the issue you may see is that of Interpretation. The Authority to interpret what Baha'u'llah had offered, was lawfully given to Shoghi Effendi and those interpretations also become divine scripture.

So it is possible, that Shoghi Effendi's interpretation of a passage, renders the interpretation not quite like another person may see the passage is written.

In the future this will not be possible, because translators can no longer also interpret. So what Shoghi Effendi has left behind will be a source for future translations.

That is the difference between translations of the Bible and Koran, where translators also interpret, but by no given authority, so we can not be sure the interpretation is correct.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that the people, the followers of the religion, changed a lot of the religion over time.

With Hinduism we have a lot of things that don't fit into the Baha'i progression very well. One is that Krishna didn't "found" Hinduism. Another is that Hindus say Krishna was the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. Did one of them "found" Hinduism? Do Baha'is recognize them? But then, are Zoroaster, Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses recognized by Hinduism as being "avatars"?

 

[CG Didymus]

Prove it.

Because if you can't it does matter that there are many charlatans.

Not to mention that some of the people, like Adam and Noah and others, that Baha'is say were manifestations of God, my not even by real, historical people.