Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Religions were revealed long before Hinduism, since God has sent Messengers since the beginning of human history.
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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
did he just quote what science knew about evolution in his time or tell us facts no one knew in his time?
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg takes a turn at blaming people who never heard for not hearing. He then goes on to call us animals.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Who is BBS?
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
That's not evidence, of there being a god. It's only evidence the Bahal can write a lot.
TBS got in before you, even resorted to calling us animals for not hearing of Bahal.
Again you quote writing and claim it as evidence. The only evidence it is, is one that proves Bahal can write and make wild claims. Prove that by walking on a straight path gets one to the kingdom of god.
It would be very easy for a god that created the world to lift my veil and those of billions of others on Earth. All he has to do is reveal himself and not leave it insignificant people to do his work for him.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Some people did challenge those that held the religious power. If the Baha'is ever became the majority and had control and the Baha'i laws were the laws of the land, do you think all people would follow along or would some still challenge the authority of those Baha'is that are in control?
One thing that was offered, was that the evolution concept of Darwin, where it is assumed we evolve from the Ape species, was not correct.
Whatever form human has taken in the past, the evolution was always as the human species.
This is a talk on that topic.
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
Regards Tony
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Tony Bristow-StaggWho is BBS?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All atheists say "that's not evidence."
And that is why I do not post it anymore unless I am prodded into doing so....
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So God give hundreds of laws to the Israelites... some carry the death penalty of being stoned to death. Have you read those laws? Do they sound like God is the one who composed them? Either way, it was men who wrote them down and enforced them. Were the judges and the enforcers perfect in their following of the law? Were they perfect in how they carried out the law? If not, where was the flaw in the system?
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
This is where you make the mistake of believing a person with limited knowledge.
The immediate ancestors of humans were members of the genus Australopithecus
. The australopithecines
(or australopiths) were intermediate between apes and people. Both australopithecines and humans are biologically similar enough to be classified as members of the same biological tribe--the Hominini
. All people, past and present, along with the australopithecines are hominins
. We share in common not only the fact that we evolved from the same ape ancestors in Africa but that both genera are habitually bipedal
, or two-footed, upright walkers. By comparison, chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas are primarily quadrupedal
, or four-footed. Fossils Reveal the Story of Our Relatives
In the 8 million years or so since the earliest ancestors of humans diverged from the apes, at least a dozen humanlike species, called hominids, have lived on Earth. And this list is getting longer. As scientists discover new fossils, the hominid family tree grows new branches.
But fossils are often difficult to categorize neatly as one species or another. Like all creatures, no two individual hominids were alike. And over the millions of years most of the species existed, hominids changed; they evolved; some diverged and became new species.
This is the story of our distant relatives, as told by the fossil record.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...&ved=0ahUKEwj0rqH1tZnsAhUE2-AKHQXRCJoQ4dUDCA0
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I wonder if the Baha'is think that religions like that of the Aztecs really came from God? I've asked them before, but I don't remember any meaningful answer. It was probably the usual dodging and avoid tactic. But, anyway, the religious system probably worked very well... for those in power. They probably didn't see any flaws in the religion. The Gods needed a blood sacrifice to bring rain or to defeat their enemies.
Where was this mysterious, unknowable true God for the Aztec people? I wonder if Baha'is think that he came with the conquistadors and Catholic missionaries? No flaw there... right. They brought a religion that taught God was three in one and that Satan and his demons are out to get them. But Baha'is say it is not God and his delivery method that is flawed... it is those darn people that take a perfect message and turn it to %*&#.
Obviously that was your interpretation of what was offered.
I can personally only blame my own self for my inactions or mistakes. You are free to see it how you wish to.
RegardsTony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That will never happen simply because God has always separated the wheat from the chaff by leaving the veil in place.
An omnipotent God can CHOOSE to do whatever it wants to do. Obviously, the omnipotent God has chosen not to prove it exists. That is indicative of a smart God who, like good farmer, knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff. The wheat does not need proof because they are satisfied with the evidence God provides. Jesus explained what happens to the chaff.
The proverbial phrase "separate the wheat from the chaff" may not be terribly meaningful to you — unless you happen to be a grain farmer. The chaff is the husk surrounding a seed, the part of the grain that is generally thrown away.
chaff - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Baha'u'llah has basically reiterated what Jesus said about separating the wheat from the chaff, only He went on to also explain God's Purpose in revealing Himself the way He does.
"He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So why do you keep referring to it?
Better evidence would be to say beautiful flowers, blue skies, etc are evidence. They're not but they're better than the ramblings of a 19th century monk with silly ideas.
Baháʼu'lláh[1] (12 November 1817 – 29 May 1892) was a Persian religious leader, and the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, which advocates universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions.
At the age of 27, Baháʼu'lláh became a follower of the Báb, a Persian merchant who began preaching that God would soon send a new prophet similar to Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad.
So Bab made a prediction that clearly wasn't true. Because I expect more from the second coming than a man the authorities can lock up for 24 years.
Baháʼu'lláh faced further imprisonment under Ottoman authorities, initially in Edirne, and ultimately in the prison city of Acre (present-day Israel), where he spent his final 24 years of life. His burial place is a destination of pilgrimage for his followers, as well as the direction they face for daily obligatory prayers. The Baháʼí World Centre sits in nearby Haifa.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So stop blaming those who never heard of Baháʼu'lláh for not hearing him.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I took a look to see what the context was. Here's some of what came before the verses you quoted. Can you explain them to me?
8 When Muḥammad, 9 unto Yathrib, 10 He continued to turn His face, while praying, unto Jerusalem, the holy city, until the time when the Jews began to utter unseemly words against Him—words which if mentioned would ill befit these pages and would weary the reader. Muḥammad strongly resented these words. Whilst, wrapt in meditation and wonder, He was gazing toward heaven, He heard the kindly Voice of Gabriel, saying: “We behold Thee from above, turning Thy face to heaven; but We will have Thee turn to a Qiblih which shall please Thee.” 11 On a subsequent day, when the Prophet, together with His companions, was offering the noontide prayer, and had already performed two of the prescribed Rik’áts, 12 the Voice of Gabriel was heard again: “Turn Thou Thy face towards the sacred Mosque.” 13 , 14 In the midst of that same prayer, Muḥammad suddenly turned His face away from Jerusalem and faced the Ka‘bih. Whereupon, a profound dismay seized suddenly the companions of the Prophet. Their faith was 15 Notwithstanding the truth of these facts, why should the Qiblih have been changed, thus casting such dismay amongst the people, causing the companions of the Prophet to waver, and throwing so great a confusion into their midst? Yea, such things as throw consternation into the hearts of all men come to pass only that each soul may be tested by the touchstone of God, that the true may be known and distinguished from the false. Thus hath He revealed after the breach amongst the people: “We did not appoint that which Thou wouldst have to be the Qiblih, but that We might know him who followeth the Apostle from him who turneth on his heels.” 16 “Affrighted asses fleeing from a lion.” 17
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18 reached His ears, He went forth from the city, and sojourned in Midian in the service of Shoeb. While returning, Moses entered the holy vale, situate in the wilderness of Sinai, and there beheld the vision of the King of glory from the “Tree that belongeth neither to the East nor to the West.” 19 There He heard the soul-stirring Voice of the Spirit speaking from out of the kindled Fire, bidding Him to shed upon Pharaonic souls the light of divine guidance; so that, liberating them from the shadows of the valley of self and desire, He might enable them to attain the meads of heavenly delight, and delivering them, through the Salsabíl of renunciation, from the bewilderment of remoteness, cause them to enter 20
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21 I swear by God! Such lamenting consumeth the heart and shaketh the being. Such consternation of soul, such despondency, could have been caused by no other than the censure of the enemy and the cavilings of the infidel and perverse. Reflect, what answer could Mary have given to the people around her? How could she claim that a Babe Whose father was unknown had been conceived of the Holy Ghost? Therefore did Mary, that veiled and immortal Countenance, take up her Child and return unto her home. No sooner had the eyes of the people fallen upon her than they raised their voice 22
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And now, meditate upon this most great convulsion, this grievous test. Notwithstanding all these things, God conferred upon that essence of the Spirit, Who was known amongst the people as fatherless, the glory of Prophethood, and made Him His testimony unto all that are in heaven and on earth.
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Behold how contrary are the ways of the Manifestations of God, as ordained by the King of creation, to the ways and desires of men! As thou comest to comprehend the essence of these divine mysteries, thou wilt grasp the purpose of God, the divine Charmer, the Best-Beloved. Thou wilt regard the words and the deeds of that almighty Sovereign as one and the same; in such wise that whatsoever thou dost behold in His deeds, the same wilt thou find in His sayings, and whatsoever thou dost read in His sayings, that wilt thou recognize in His deeds. Thus it is that outwardly such deeds and words are the fire of vengeance unto the wicked, and inwardly the waters of mercy unto the righteous. Were the eye of the heart to open, it 58 would surely perceive that the words revealed from the heaven of the will of God are at one with, and the same as, the deeds that have emanated from the Kingdom of divine power.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Continued...
62
And now, take heed, O brother! If such things be revealed in this Dispensation, and such incidents come to pass, at the present time, what would the people do? I swear by Him Who is the true Educator of mankind and the Revealer of the Word of God that the people would instantly and unquestionably pronounce Him an infidel and would sentence Him to death. How far are they from hearkening unto the voice that declareth: Lo! a Jesus hath appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost, and a Moses summoned to a divinely-appointed task! Were a myriad voices to be raised, no ear would listen if We said that upon a fatherless Child hath been conferred the mission of Prophethood, or that a murderer hath brought from the flame of the burning Bush the message of “Verily, verily, I am God!”
63
If the eye of justice be opened, it will readily recognize, in the light of that which hath been mentioned, that He, Who is the Cause and ultimate Purpose of all these things, is made manifest in this 59 day. Though similar events have not occurred in this Dispensation, yet the people still cling to such vain imaginings as are cherished by the reprobate. How grievous the charges brought against Him! How severe the persecutions inflicted upon Him—charges and persecutions the like of which men have neither seen nor heard!
64
Great God! When the stream of utterance reached this stage, We beheld, and lo! the sweet savours of God were being wafted from the dayspring of Revelation, and the morning breeze was blowing out of the Sheba of the Eternal. Its tidings rejoiced anew the heart, and imparted immeasurable gladness to the soul. It made all things new, and brought unnumbered and inestimable gifts from the unknowable Friend. The robe of human praise can never hope to match Its noble stature, and Its shining figure the mantle of utterance can never fit. Without word It unfoldeth the inner mysteries, and without speech It revealeth the secrets of the divine sayings. It teacheth lamentation and moaning to the nightingales warbling upon the bough of remoteness and bereavement, instructeth them in the art of love’s ways, and showeth them the secret of heart-surrender. To the 60 flowers of the Riḍván of heavenly reunion It revealeth the endearments of the impassioned lover, and unveileth the charm of the fair. Upon the anemones of the garden of love It bestoweth the mysteries of truth, and within the breasts of lovers It entrusteth the symbols of the innermost subtleties. At this hour, so liberal is the outpouring of Its grace that the holy Spirit itself is envious! It hath imparted to the drop the waves of the sea, and endowed the mote with the splendour of the sun. So great are the overflowings of Its bounty that the foulest beetle hath sought the perfume of the musk, and the bat the light of the sun. It hath quickened the dead with the breath of life, and caused them to speed out of the sepulchres of their mortal bodies. It hath established the ignorant upon the seats of learning, and elevated the oppressor to the throne of justice.
65
The universe is pregnant with these manifold bounties, awaiting the hour when the effects of Its unseen gifts will be made manifest in this world, when the languishing and sore athirst will attain the living Kawthar of their Well-Beloved, and the erring wanderer, lost in the wilds of remoteness and nothingness, will enter the tabernacle of life, 61 and attain reunion with his heart’s desire. In the soil of whose heart will these holy seeds germinate? From the garden of whose soul will the blossoms of the invisible realities spring forth? Verily, I say, so fierce is the blaze of the Bush of love, burning in the Sinai of the heart, that the streaming waters of holy utterance can never quench its flame. Oceans can never allay this Leviathan’s burning thirst, and this Phoenix of the undying fire can abide nowhere save in the glow of the countenance of the Well-Beloved. Therefore, O brother! kindle with the oil of wisdom the lamp of the spirit within the innermost chamber of thy heart, and guard it with the globe of understanding, that the breath of the infidel may extinguish not its flame nor dim its brightness. Thus have We illuminated the heavens of utterance with the splendours of the Sun of divine wisdom and understanding, that thy heart may find peace, that thou mayest be of those who, on the wings of certitude, have soared unto the heaven of the love of their Lord, the All-Merciful.
66
And now, concerning His words: “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” By these words it is meant that when the sun of 62 the heavenly teachings hath been eclipsed, the stars of the divinely-established laws have fallen, and the moon of true knowledge—the educator of mankind—hath been obscured; when the standards of guidance and felicity have been reversed, and the morn of truth and righteousness hath sunk in night, then shall the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven. By “heaven” is meant the visible heaven, inasmuch as when the hour draweth nigh on which the Day-star of the heaven of justice shall be made manifest, and the Ark of divine guidance shall sail upon the sea of glory, a star will appear in the heaven, heralding unto its people the advent of that most great light. In like manner, in the invisible heaven a star shall be made manifest who, unto the peoples of the earth, shall act as a harbinger of the break of that true and exalted Morn. These twofold signs, in the visible and the invisible heaven, have announced the Revelation of each of the Prophets of God, as is commonly believed.
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Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald 63 who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.
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After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression. 64
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah explained what would happen if God came into this world and revealed His Essence just so atheists could believe He exists. There would be no more atheists or anyone else left because we would all be reduced to utter nothingness:
"That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose. Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72
The reason that the Messengers of God (who are the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace) such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah appear to us like ordinary men is so that we can look at why they are more than ordinary men and figure out who they really were... That is how God separates the wheat from the chaff; the wheat look at the Messengers, the chaff only complain about them.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So stop giving ramblings from a 19 century nobody as proof, because according to you god isn't going to provide proof. which is a great cop-out for conmen. We can only judge them on what they say.
And you won't list those things in a simple way except that we all live in peace and it will take a new form of a human to do that. Meanwhile, we live in this world and need men with guns to keep the peace.