God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[CG Didymus]

Of course the Baha'i Faith is similar to Islam, it grew out of Islam and it is closest in chronological time to Islam since Islam is a newer religion than Buddhism, Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism.

The 8 Oldest Religions in the World

• Hinduism (founded around the 15th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Zoroastrianism (10th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Judaism (9th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Jainism (8th – 2nd century BCE) ...
• Confucianism (6th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Buddhism (6th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Taoism (6th – 4th century BCE) ...
• Shintoism (3rd century BCE – 8th century CE)

The 8 Oldest Religions in the World - Culture Trip

And why do Baha'i only recognize some of those? And, Since this list has Hinduism and Zoroastrianism prior to Judaism, making them the closest "chronological" religion to Judaism, did Judaism grow out of them?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some people did challenge those that held the religious power. If the Baha'is ever became the majority and had control and the Baha'i laws were the laws of the land, do you think all people would follow along or would some still challenge the authority of those Baha'is that are in control?

As in the other post to you CG, I see the Lesser Peace will not be run by the Baha'i.

There is to be a unity in our diversity. I see the distant Most Great Peace is built on acceptance of One People under One God.

Baha'u'llah offered this as to our way forward;

".. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements...."

The problem is what is said in the next verse;

"... We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy...."

The greatest friend, that many see as the enemy, is Baha'u'llah.

That what I see, no one else has to.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah explained what would happen if God came into this world and revealed His Essence just so atheists could believe He exists. There would be no more atheists or anyone else left because we would all be reduced to utter nothingness:

"That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose. Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

The reason that the Messengers of God (who are the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace) such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah appear to us like ordinary men is so that we can look at why they are more than ordinary men and figure out who they really were... That is how God separates the wheat from the chaff; the wheat look at the Messengers, the chaff only complain about them.

So make the definitions of a manifestation fit Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses? Abraham had lots of wealth. Moses killed a guy. Adam ate the forbidden fruit and got cursed by God. And Noah built a big boat. They were all part of the "story" of the Jewish people. They were not necessarily anything more than ordinary men. Then, there is always the question... were some of them, or any of them, real historical people? I guess so, huh? 'Cause Baha'u'llah says they were manifestations. But what religion did they bring? What Holy Book did they write? They are all characters in a Holy Book. Only Moses, some believe, wrote any of it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So God give hundreds of laws to the Israelites... some carry the death penalty of being stoned to death. Have you read those laws? Do they sound like God is the one who composed them? Either way, it was men who wrote them down and enforced them. Were the judges and the enforcers perfect in their following of the law? Were they perfect in how they carried out the law? If not, where was the flaw in the system?

We can onky do our best CG. In this age we have the choices others in the past did not have. We can see when people are in a position for their own gain.

There are still a few rulers that do not allow the people to have their say, but the Old World Order is collapsing all around us and the New World Order is already implanted in many hearts.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

As in the other post to you CG, I see the Lesser Peace will not be run by the Baha'i.

There is to be a unity in our diversity. I see the distant Most Great Peace is built on acceptance of One People under One God.

Baha'u'llah offered this as to our way forward;

".. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements...."

The problem is what is said in the next verse;

"... We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy...."

The greatest friend, that many see as the enemy, is Baha'u'llah.

That what I see, no one else has to.

Regards Tony

It's the Most Great Peace I'm wondering about. Is it supposed to be a perfect, peaceful world with no crime, no killing, no bad things... including corrupt religious leaders?

 

[Trailblazer]

So why do you keep referring to it?

I only refer to it when asked for evidence and I am prodded into posting it, but I should really know better by now.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is where you make the mistake of believing a person with limited knowledge.

Discovery of Early Hominins​

The immediate ancestors of humans were members of the genus Australopithecus . The australopithecines (or australopiths) were intermediate between apes and people. Both australopithecines and humans are biologically similar enough to be classified as members of the same biological tribe--the Hominini . All people, past and present, along with the australopithecines are hominins . We share in common not only the fact that we evolved from the same ape ancestors in Africa but that both genera are habitually bipedal , or two-footed, upright walkers. By comparison, chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas are primarily quadrupedal , or four-footed.

Fossils Reveal the Story of Our Relatives
​

In the 8 million years or so since the earliest ancestors of humans diverged from the apes, at least a dozen humanlike species, called hominids, have lived on Earth. And this list is getting longer. As scientists discover new fossils, the hominid family tree grows new branches.

But fossils are often difficult to categorize neatly as one species or another. Like all creatures, no two individual hominids were alike. And over the millions of years most of the species existed, hominids changed; they evolved; some diverged and became new species.

This is the story of our distant relatives, as told by the fossil record.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01ec1kxmFc4neg4PMUEJMdQCiM0jw:1601762396501&ei=XPR4X_SQHoS2gweFoqPQCQ&q=How+did+hominids+develop&oq=How+did+hominids+develop&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIECCMQJzICCAAyBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQCBAeOgQIABBHOgcIIxCwAhAnOgQIABANUJqeGljrsBpghc4aaABwAngAgAGGAYgB7wGSAQMwLjKYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6yAEIwAEB&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj0rqH1tZnsAhUE2-AKHQXRCJoQ4dUDCA0

Did you read the link posted? I would say not, or you did not understand what it offered.

If you did, it was absolutly pointless posting that in reply.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

We can only judge them on what they say.

And you won't list those things in a simple way except that we all live in peace and it will take a new form of a human to do that.

Baha'u'llah referred to the things we have to do in order to bring about peace on many occasions. For example:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

 

[CG Didymus]

Jainism is a religion, I think, but I am not sure. It doesn't seem to have arisen from a Manifestation of God. That doesn't mean that thee aren't some truths to learn from it if someone wants to investigate it. We are to be sympathetic to ideas even if they are outside of Revelations from God.

Confucianism was not originally a religion, but was the philosophy of Confucius, but was turned into a religion by some. Confucius used reason and his moral compass gleaned from traditional morals to reveal a philosophy.

Taoism also, as far as I can tell, was a philosophy, but does seem more religion-like than Confucianism. Taoism seems to originally have some what I would call mystic attitudes. In China, it was combined by some with Buddhism from India to create a distinctive Buddhist perspective.

Shintoism I haven't liked very much. It sees spirits controlling nature and there are shrines to ancestors in some homes. It is a ritual kind of religion more than a moral religion. Some Japanese still do the rituals without really believing in the underlying perspective of the religion.

I don't have time in my life to investigate all these things further to get whatever truths may be there.

I'll refer you to my thread on the relevance of religion with this link. Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

There is the Baha'i progression that leaves out some religions. Then there is what archeologists have found that show an evolving of people, culture and religion. All those beliefs and religions got us to here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's the Most Great Peace I'm wondering about. Is it supposed to be a perfect, peaceful world with no crime, no killing, no bad things... including corrupt religious leaders?

Abdu'lbaha has given some insight into the possibilities, not sure what keywords I need to find the quotes. It is offered that we bring most of the world's problems and our own health upon our own selves.

In a world where we are in harmony, events happen to keep balance with that harmony and as such are not a calamity.

No point dwelling on that though, the Lesser Peace is what we must build so the future can find the Most Great Peace.

RegardsTony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I wonder if the Baha'is think that religions like that of the Aztecs really came from God? I've asked them before, but I don't remember any meaningful answer. It was probably the usual dodging and avoid tactic. But, anyway, the religious system probably worked very well... for those in power. They probably didn't see any flaws in the religion. The Gods needed a blood sacrifice to bring rain or to defeat their enemies.

Where was this mysterious, unknowable true God for the Aztec people? I wonder if Baha'is think that he came with the conquistadors and Catholic missionaries? No flaw there... right. They brought a religion that taught God was three in one and that Satan and his demons are out to get them. But Baha'is say it is not God and his delivery method that is flawed... it is those darn people that take a perfect message and turn it to %*&#.

What about religions that predate today's religions? Then there are those that came afterwards. There are so many religions that are so different it proves religion is man-made.

A list of religions.
Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

And then we have Paganism. Mythology, etc. Every major group of people seemed to have a different religion to hang onto.

 

[Trailblazer]

I took a look to see what the context was. Here's some of what came before the verses you quoted. Can you explain them to me?

I only wish I had time, but what difference would my explanation make? The important part is what Baha'u'llah concluded with.

"Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee,"
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

 

[CG Didymus]

You have now heard about it. Thee is no one else to blame but our own selves.

And Evangelical Christians, JW's and Mormons are so many others say the same thing. Now that I've heard the "truth" about Jesus, it is up to me to believe or turn away. Baha'is too. They say, "Check it out and see that it is true." And all can't be true, so we ask questions and point out things we disagree with and that contradict the other religions. Baha'is don't have any better "proof" to their claims then any other religion.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I only refer to it when asked for evidence and I am prodded into posting it, but I should really know better by now.

Then please stop calling it evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

What about religions that predate today's religions? Then there are those that came afterwards. There are so many religions that are so different it proves religion is man-made.

A list of religions.
Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

And then we have Paganism. Mythology, etc. Every major group of people seemed to have a different religion to hang onto.

That's why I don't like or agree with the Baha'i concept of "progression revelation". I don't see any reason not to believe that people made up their Gods and their religion.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Did you read the link posted? I would say not, or you did not understand what it offered.

If you did, it was absolutly pointless posting that in reply.

Regards Tony

Tell me where it says we did not evolve from apes. Because I high lighted where it said we did.

I've given you evidence we evolved from an ape, now show where we didn't and if possible evidence of a god in our evolution or creation.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

That's why I don't like or agree with the Baha'i concept of "progression revelation". I don't see any reason not to believe that people made up their Gods and their religion.

It's blindingly obvious that man created all of these religions. Some give very good guidelines on how to live and treat your fellow man. Some have some very bad guidelines.

 

[CG Didymus]

I only wish I had time, but what difference would my explanation make? The important part is what Baha'u'llah concluded with.

"Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee,"
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

If those religions were true and the "spiritual" laws were the same in each, and only the "social" laws changed we would have some continuity. But that's not what we have. All religions are different and many reflect the people and culture from which they came. But wait, you don't have time to explain the paragraphs prior to your quote? Or, you don't have time to read all those words that your leader wrote? Well then, I'm not going to read them. It's way too wordy... has things in it that I have no idea what he's trying to say. I'll wait for the "Baha'i Writings for Dummies" to come out.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Baha'u'llah referred to the things we have to do in order to bring about peace on many occasions. For example:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Stop posting quotesI can't be bothered to read until you give me a list of what Baha'u'llah believes or says. So I can see if there's anything of worth in it.

Like living in peace, so long as we have men with guns to keep the peace that works fine. Because if some choose to do harm the good men with guns will protect you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Religions were revealed long before Hinduism, since God has sent Messengers since the beginning of human history.

Yes, and Hinduism has several avatars prior to Krishna, but Baha'is don't mention them. But they mention several from Judaism?