PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So your god reacts to Man rather than us reacting to him. Strange god.
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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
If Paul is saying that his evidence is better, it is because he goes with science. Those who claim to be messengers / manifestations / mahdis sent by Allah provide no proof either for their Allah nor for their own mission. Bahsollah says that a 'Maid of Heaven' visited him in jail and Mohammad says that Angel Gabriel (Jibrīl) came to him. None of the two offer any other evidence.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So did anyone get to see this miracle? Where is the independent recording of a miracle?
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Let Paul answer for him self, the question was only to him
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Fine if he's a mortal, bad for a Messenger from God.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
The same reason you believe in Baha. You have no verifiable evidence.
What would be proof that a god exists?
Comes down to Earth
Moves a mountain from A to B
Cures Covid
Cures cancer
Limits the overpopulation of Man on Earth this is the biggest problem we have now. The Earth simply can't survive with 7 billion and soon to become 9 billion because religious people think "Go forth and multiply" is a reason to keep adding to the population.
Sends messenger with lots to say about nothing much, is pointless because by your own admission it's not working.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Again judging your messengers as ordinary mortal men and not messengers from god.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
It would only take a god to indicate independently who is the true messenger, not teach us all about their messages. Your reasoning is flawed.
Or does your god respond to Baha'u'llah rather than Baha'u'llah responding to god?
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
That's because I go to science for my proof. Proof the Earth isn't 6,000 years old, proof evolution created us and everything around us, where we are in the universe, the Earth isn't flat, etc. These aren't my opinions they are facts until you can disprove them.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Thank you for the reply.
Science do have its place in human society and yes a lot of science is good.
But so is religious belief too ( in my view)
So to refuse any answer from one side is maybe wrong? That is something i have realized in the last month or so. Even my belief is religious i can still use science when needed.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
Of course, you use science when you need it. But on the basic question of "is there a god or is he man-made" all the evidence points to man-made.
That doesn't mean everything in the bible is wrong, just some of it and religion is still used to today to kill others.
That's because the way god uses to send his message is flawed or no god exists.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So, God is going to write the equivalent if 15,000 Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote in the sky for all of the 7.8 billion people alive on earth to SEE?
God does not 'check in' with humans because God is not our servant, we are God's servants.
No fault is involved. It is only by God's mercy and grace that He sends Messengers, and then people complain about them. That is like if someone gave you a free gift and you threw it back in their face.
“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68
Proof was offered, another thing that people throw back in God's Face. Not God's problem
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah was not trying to convince anyone. Belief has always been a choice and that is how God wants it.
Only a few people recognize God's Messenger in the first centuries but over time more people hop on board the ship that leads to eternal life.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Humans and the world in which humans live in have changed a lot in thousands of years since those were written. Ancient scriptures no longer meet the needs of humanity. The world we live in is a lot more complicated and the problems we face are very different.
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's unfortunate for them. If they believed they would understand who Adam was.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah was not trying to garner followers, that was not the job God gave Him to do. His job was to complete a mission and write scriptures and garner a few disciples who would later carry the message to others, and after that the message would be carried by future generations.
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How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is called the fallacy of argumentum ad populum
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
Examples
This fallacy is sometimes committed while trying to convince a person that a widely popular thought is true or that they're wrong because all the rest do otherwise.
- Billions believe in my religious belief.
The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
There are many reasons why only a few people recognize the new Messenger when He appears on earth. The main reason is because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. Secondly, if they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. Thirdly, if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. You are a case in point.
It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Only if the GOAL was to convince people, but that has never been the goal. God wants us to seek Him and find Him by looking at the evidence He provides, when He sends a Messenger. Every man has that capacity to recognize God in the Person of the Messenger, whether they use their capacity or not is another matter.
“It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143
Atheists want proof, but there will never be the kind of proof they are looking for because God wants us to have faith, and those who seek and have faith will be rewarded..
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The method is not flawed just because the majority do not get the message in the first centuries.
There are many reasons why few people get the message in the beginning and all of them are related to humans, NONE of them are God's fault at all.
Here are the main reasons more people have not become Baha'is to date:
1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.
2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.
3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.
4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”
5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.
6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.
7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It was ushered in in 1844, but the kings and rulers of that time rejected Baha'u'llah so the Most Great Peace did not come, but it will be established during this age, after more people start to follow the counsels of Baha'u'llah.
“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is called the fallacy of argumentum ad populum
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.
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How many Christians do you think there were in the first centuries?
“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.
These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
Christianity grew because it became the official religion of the Roman Empire:
Constantine turns the tide
When a Roman soldier, Constantine, won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity.
Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
Constantine then needed to establish exactly what the Christian faith was and called the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD which formulated and codified the faith.
BBC - Religions - Christianity: The basics of Christian history
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know what you mean.