God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Okay, until Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, people wrote the message... then people interpreted the message. The result? Dead on, no errors, an infallible message from God? Or a little bit of corruption? You know just small things like the messenger made into a God and that he came back to life.

I would not refer to it as corruption because that implied intent and we do not know the intent...
I would just say there were errors because men can make errors.
I would say that the resurrection stories were made up with a purpose in mind but we don't know the purpose.

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean directly, not through a go-between.

No, God could not do that because God is not a man who can speak directly to humans.

 

[CG Didymus]

God sends a universal Manifestation of God in every age, but God also sends prophets whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality.

So Confucius and Lao Tzu were "prophets"? But no manifestations to China until they got a very old, and probably not a very exact, message about Buddha? And, Baha'u'llah is a manifestation, but who were the prophets between Muhammad and Baha'u'llah?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, help me. What proof do you have that he is the True Messiah, the return of Buddha, the return of Jesus, the return of all the others?

I cannot prove that to you. You have to prove it to yourself, or fail to do so.

But you know, I have opinions too. I think you should, no matter how hard its going to be for you, is start interacting with your Baha'i community. If we are going to apply the teachings of the Baha'i Faith, it seems to me that a Baha'i should become active and participate in their local community.

I could not do that even if I wanted to, except through Zoom... Maybe you forgot that we are in the middle of a pandemic. It is not business as usual.

If I started interacting with other Baha'is on Zoom, I would no longer have time for this forum, as there are only so many hours in a day.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no reason to believe that the Baha’is have revised anything.

What do you call saying that Jesus did not rise from the dead? Or that thing about Ishmael, not Isaac, being the one taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? But that story's got more problems... Do you think God really told Abraham to stab his son in the heart and burn him? Probably one of those "symbolic" stories huh? But then, if it is fictional, who gives a &%^$ which fictional son it was?

 

[Trailblazer]

So Confucius and Lao Tzu were "prophets"? But no manifestations to China until they got a very old, and probably not a very exact, message about Buddha?

I do not know. I only know what is in the Baha'i Writings:

“Question.—To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?
Answer.—Buddha also established a new religion, and Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but their institutions have been entirely destroyed. The beliefs and rites of the Buddhists and Confucianists have not continued in accordance with their fundamental teachings. The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images.” Some Answered Questions, p. 165

And, Baha'u'llah is a manifestation, but who were the prophets between Muhammad and Baha'u'llah?

I do not know. I only know what is in the Baha'i Writings.

Now I have some questions for you:

1. Why should the Baha'is or the Baha'i Faith have all the information about all the religions that preceded it?
2. Why does it matter to you so much what all those older religions taught?
3. Do you think that their teachings and laws are pertinent to this age?
4. Do you really think it is possible to reconcile all those religions with the Baha'i Faith?
5. Why do you think it is necessary to reconcile all those religions with the Baha'i Faith?
6. Do you think you can prove or disprove the Baha'i Faith by looking at all those religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

I would not refer to it as corruption because that implied intent and we do not know the intent...
I would just say there were errors because men can make errors.
I would say that the resurrection stories were made up with a purpose in mind but we don't know the purpose.

Well, the story was passed on as being literally true, so somebody had a purpose in mind. And I think it goes back to the gospel writers. The NT claims they saw him, that he was real etc. Supposedly hundreds of witnesses. So a few centuries later, Christians were told it really happened and they read the NT and trusted what it said as being true. And, people got in big trouble for not believing this and other Christian doctrines, "Servetus (was sentenced) to death by burning for denying the Trinity and infant baptism. Calvin and other ministers asked that he be beheaded instead of burnt..." Adam Duff O'Toole (in 1328) branded Christian scripture as a fable and denied the resurrection of Jesus Christ. For this he was burned at the stake. Aah, nothing like that good ole fashion religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, God could not do that because God is not a man who can speak directly to humans.

But again, the NT has God speaking, something like, this is my beloved Son. A lie right?

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you call saying that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

A different interpretation of the resurrection stories, just as many liberal Christians have:

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

“Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

 

[CG Didymus]

Trailblazer... I could not do that even if I wanted to, except through Zoom... Maybe you forgot that we are in the middle of a pandemic. It is not business as usual.

If I started interacting with other Baha'is on Zoom, I would no longer have time for this forum, as there are only so many hours in a day.
My favorite memories of the Baha'i Faith was hanging out with Baha'is. But most didn't get into the deep Baha'i beliefs, just the basics... peace, unity, love all people. It was great. I only have a problem with those deeper beliefs.

Me... The pandemic? I thought Fearless Leader said it was a hoax? Who ya gonna believe him or a bunch of doctors?

 

[Trailblazer]

Or that thing about Ishmael, not Isaac, being the one taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? But that story's got more problems... Do you think God really told Abraham to stab his son in the heart and burn him? Probably one of those "symbolic" stories huh? But then, if it is fictional, who gives a &%^$ which fictional son it was?

Apparently you care, but why you care so much is something only you know.
God also knows why you care because God is all knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

My favorite memories of the Baha'i Faith was hanging out with Baha'is. But most didn't get into the deep Baha'i beliefs, just the basics... peace, unity, love all people. It was great. I only have a problem with those deeper beliefs.

What are those deeper beliefs you have a problem with, that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God?
I hope you know that the entire Baha'i Faith edifice rests on that ONE belief.
When I signed the card in 1970 I had to declare that I believed that.

 

[CG Didymus]

The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God,

That would be nice to find some proof of that. Do you think there is some, or is it part of the "lost" original teachings of the Buddha?

 

[Trailblazer]

But again, the NT has God speaking, something like, this is my beloved Son. A lie right?

The question is, speaking how and to whom? Did anyone hear that voice?

The Baptism of Jesus
…16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no reason to believe that the Baha’is have revised anything.

What do you call saying that Jesus did not rise from the dead? Or that thing about Ishmael, not Isaac, being the one taken by Abraham to be sacrificed? But that story's got more problems... Do you think God really told Abraham to stab his son in the heart and burn him? Probably one of those "symbolic" stories huh? But then, if it is fictional, who gives a &%^$ which fictional son it was?

Apparently you care, but why you care so much is something only you know.
God also knows why you care because God is all knowing.

You said that Baha'is don't revise anything. Those aren't examples of revising things?

And God is all knowing? Huh, I wonder why he was so surprised when his creation turned so evil? Gen 6:6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

 

[Trailblazer]

That would be nice to find some proof of that. Do you think there is some, or is it part of the "lost" original teachings of the Buddha?

There cannot be any proof of that unless we have original writings of the Buddha.

Google is my friend:

Did the Buddha write anything?

The Buddha did not write anything down. The earliest known scriptures were recorded hundreds of years after the Buddha's death. Still, the Buddhavacana (Words of the Buddha) are claimed to be the literal utterances of the Buddha as the Sangha orally maintained them since the Buddha's death.

How can we know what the Buddha taught and how does this ...
The first Buddhist texts were initially passed on orally by Buddhist monastics, but were later written down and composed as manuscripts in various Indo-Aryan languages (such as Pali, Gāndhārī and Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit) and collected into various Buddhist canons.

Buddhist texts - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

What are those deeper beliefs you have a problem with, that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God?
I hope you know that the entire Baha'i Faith edifice rests on that ONE belief.
When I signed the card in 1970 I had to declare that I believed that.

Yes, that and progressive revelation. Then having a bunch of laws just like other religions. But, I don't see how those rules are going to work now when they didn't work then. But the basics are great... peace, love, unity, all people are one. But all religions are one? I believe that if there is one true God that all religions should be one. But that's not what it looks like to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said that Baha'is don't revise anything. Those aren't examples of revising things?

No, absolutely NOT.
They are just examples of different interpretations of the Bible.

I think you should take a look at this thread and my two responses on it:

The Bible Tells Me So

 

[CG Didymus]

The question is, speaking how and to whom? Did anyone hear that voice?

The Baptism of Jesus
…16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!

Why try and prove it. Let's just say it probably didn't happen... it was just another embellished lie, I mean symbolic/fictional story, that the writers added in.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, the story was passed on as being literally true, so somebody had a purpose in mind. And I think it goes back to the gospel writers. The NT claims they saw him, that he was real etc. Supposedly hundreds of witnesses.

But we do not know what the purpose was, so why bother to conjecture?
You either believe it is literally true or not. I would think that by now you should have a position.