PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
But are these messengers from god and how do you know they are from any god.
It didn't take any great intelligence to predict the world we lived in was changing.
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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
It didn't take any great intelligence to predict the world we lived in was changing.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
If you tell me something it's up to me to ask for proof. If I ask for it it's up to you to present that truth. Otherwise, I must conclude you can't give any proof and I'm in danger of being conned.
This is what happens with so many religions, they make claims they can't prove and then fall back on the excuse it's not up to them to prove or their god.
Any proof they do present is also easily explained with evolution. Then it comes down to the odds on 1 in 500,000,000 planets containing life with a superior intelligent being. Also, evolution is proven to get things wrong and indicates no intelligent designer.
This is what happens with so many religions, they make claims they can't prove and then fall back on the excuse it's not up to them to prove or their god.
Any proof they do present is also easily explained with evolution. Then it comes down to the odds on 1 in 500,000,000 planets containing life with a superior intelligent being. Also, evolution is proven to get things wrong and indicates no intelligent designer.
PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So these messengers from god. How are they getting their instructions from god?
Are they in communication with him?
Do they talk?
How often do they talk?
How do they communicate?
They must know something more than us mortals because they make wild claims "from a the Message He gave change was inevitable and swift, behind the Message was a promise of One greater then himself."
Baha makes other claims even in the first paragraph of his writing. How does he know this?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Really? You think so? United States of America, at least in parts, will be laid waste?
Shoghi Effendi said that? Was he a prophet?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Read their books. It is all written there. And then read the comments and explanations by the preacher's son and great-grandson. Bahais alone have the truth. All the other religions are wrong. Did not the 'heavenly maid' visit their preacher? Bahaollah's line ended with his great grandson.
World always changes. At the moment it is perhaps the climate which is changing.
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PAUL MARKHAM
Well-Known Member
So how is Bhais getting his information from god?
Is he just making it up as he goes along or is he getting instructions from a god?
At the moment we are on our way to destroying the Earth because we are doing what the bible says, "Go forth and multiply". Soon the sheer number of humans on Earth will cause major problems.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
From the mouth of his manifestation, the uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher.
Yeah, sure, Abrahamics make it up as they go along. Even Jesus and Mohammad did that. Basically you have to swallow what they have said and not question it.
Nature will take care of over-population. It does so with other animals also, lemmings.
Yeah, sure, Abrahamics make it up as they go along. Even Jesus and Mohammad did that. Basically you have to swallow what they have said and not question it.
Nature will take care of over-population. It does so with other animals also, lemmings.
Nova2216
Active Member
Then what is to be trusted?
chinu
chinu
That depends on the type of bottle.
If the bottle is closed, it will NOT let anything in. (Neither truth, nor false/garbage)
If the bottle is open for false/garbage, it will let the false in.
If the bottle is open for only truth, it will NOT let the false in. Only truth can enter.
The Messengers from God are born of a different Spirit than we are.
This is why the Bible talks about being born again and many faiths have practices that try to transcend our human Nature and find our Divine Nature.
From what I have found to date, creation has come into being from the Holy Spirit, given by God and which the Messenger is Born of. I see when science studies this following tablet, then the force that binds creation may be found, and how we can use that force, will guide the exploration of the universe in the future. Tablet of the Universe
How they communicate has been recorded. Words are not needed as it is Spiritual vision and Inspiration. As the Holy Spirit they are made of is eternal, they can source all Truth, they know the beginning and know the end, they know all our thoughts and all our actions past, present and future. As such the guidance given is to foster our unity and warn of what is faced if we do not choose the advice.
This is a link to a small talk on the topic of spiritual communication.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 88-89
Those who meet the Messengers find out first hand how communication of the Spirit unfolds, such as this;
"... It is the language of the spirit which speaks to God. When, in prayer, we are freed from all outward things and turn to God, then it is as if in our hearts we hear the voice of God. Without words we speak, we communicate, we converse with God and hear the answer. … All of us, when we attain to a truly spiritual condition, can hear the Voice of God... " (from a talk reported by Miss Ethel J. Rosenberg).
Big topic, as this is what Faith is all about.
Regards Tony
Shoghi Effendi was no Prophet, but Shoghi Effendi was given the divine authority to interpret what the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha had offered and none knew better what they had offered.
The greater connection one has with the Messenger, the greater becones one's vision of what that Message offered and the knowledge of the consequences of the neglect of that Message.
I will put this letter to America from Shoghi Effendi under a spoiler, we have been warned and to date what is written in this letter is unfolding; (There were many official letters written warning America, this is but one)
AMERICA PASSING THROUGH CRISIS
Moreover, the country of which it forms a part is passing through a crisis which, in its spiritual, moral, social and political aspects, is of extreme seriousness--a seriousness which to a superficial observer is liable to be dangerously underestimated.
The steady and alarming deterioration in the standard of morality as exemplified by the appalling increase of crime, by political corruption in ever widening and ever higher circles, by the loosening of the sacred ties of marriage, by the inordinate craving for pleasure and diversion, and by the marked and progressive slackening of parental control, is no doubt the most arresting and distressing aspect of the decline that has set in, and can be clearly perceived, in the fortunes of the entire nation.
Parallel with this, and pervading all departments of life--an evil which the nation, and indeed all those within the capitalist system, though to a lesser degree, share with that state and its satellites regarded as the sworn enemies of that system--is the crass materialism, which lays excessive and ever-increasing emphasis on material well-being, forgetful of those things of the spirit on which alone a sure and stable foundation can be laid for human society. It is this same cancerous materialism, born originally in Europe, carried to excess in the North American continent, contaminating the Asiatic peoples and nations, spreading its ominous tentacles to the borders of Africa, and now invading its very heart, which Bahá'u'lláh in unequivocal and emphatic language denounced in His Writings, comparing it to a devouring flame and regarding it as the chief factor in precipitating the dire ordeals and world-shaking crises that must necessarily involve the burning of cities and the spread of terror and consternation in the hearts of men. Indeed a foretaste of the devastation which this consuming fire will wreak upon the world, and with which it will lay waste the cities of the nations participating in this tragic world-engulfing contest, has been afforded by the last World War, marking the second stage in the global havoc which humanity, forgetful of its God and heedless of the clear warnings uttered by His appointed Messenger for this day, must, alas, inevitably experience. It is this same all-pervasive, pernicious materialism against which the voice of the Center of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant was raised, with pathetic persistence, from platform and pulpit, in His addresses to the heedless multitudes, which, on the morrow of His fateful visit to both Europe and America, found themselves suddenly swept into the vortex of a tempest which in its range and severity was unsurpassed in the world's history.
Collateral with this ominous laxity in morals, and this progressive stress laid on man's material pursuits and well-being, is the darkening of the political horizon, as witnessed by the widening of the gulf separating the protagonists of two antagonistic schools of thought which, however divergent in their ideologies, are to be commonly condemned by the upholders of the standard of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh for their materialistic philosophies and their neglect of those spiritual values and eternal verities on which alone a stable and flourishing civilization can be ultimately established. The multiplication, the diversity and the increasing destructive power of armaments to which both sides, in this world contest, caught in a whirlpool of fear, suspicion and hatred, are rapidly contributing; the outbreak of two successive bloody conflicts, entangling still further the American nation in the affairs of a distracted world, entailing a considerable loss in blood and treasure, swelling the national budget and progressively depreciating the currency of the state; the confusion, the vacillation, the suspicions besetting the European and Asiatic nations in their attitude to the American nation; the overwhelming accretion of strength to the arch enemy of the system championed by the American Union in consequence of the re-alignment of the powers in the Asiatic continent and particularly in the Far East--these have, moreover, contributed their share, in recent years, to the deterioration of a situation which, if not remedied, is bound to involve the American nation in a catastrophe of undreamed-of dimensions and of untold consequences to the social structure, the standard and conception of the American people and government.
No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty--so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by `Abdu'l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation--of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of `Abdu'l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities.
The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed, from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in the hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery tribulations will not only firmly weld the American nation to its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by `Abdu'l-Bahá's unerring pen--a role which she is bound to fulfill through travail and sorrow.
The steady and alarming deterioration in the standard of morality as exemplified by the appalling increase of crime, by political corruption in ever widening and ever higher circles, by the loosening of the sacred ties of marriage, by the inordinate craving for pleasure and diversion, and by the marked and progressive slackening of parental control, is no doubt the most arresting and distressing aspect of the decline that has set in, and can be clearly perceived, in the fortunes of the entire nation.
Parallel with this, and pervading all departments of life--an evil which the nation, and indeed all those within the capitalist system, though to a lesser degree, share with that state and its satellites regarded as the sworn enemies of that system--is the crass materialism, which lays excessive and ever-increasing emphasis on material well-being, forgetful of those things of the spirit on which alone a sure and stable foundation can be laid for human society. It is this same cancerous materialism, born originally in Europe, carried to excess in the North American continent, contaminating the Asiatic peoples and nations, spreading its ominous tentacles to the borders of Africa, and now invading its very heart, which Bahá'u'lláh in unequivocal and emphatic language denounced in His Writings, comparing it to a devouring flame and regarding it as the chief factor in precipitating the dire ordeals and world-shaking crises that must necessarily involve the burning of cities and the spread of terror and consternation in the hearts of men. Indeed a foretaste of the devastation which this consuming fire will wreak upon the world, and with which it will lay waste the cities of the nations participating in this tragic world-engulfing contest, has been afforded by the last World War, marking the second stage in the global havoc which humanity, forgetful of its God and heedless of the clear warnings uttered by His appointed Messenger for this day, must, alas, inevitably experience. It is this same all-pervasive, pernicious materialism against which the voice of the Center of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant was raised, with pathetic persistence, from platform and pulpit, in His addresses to the heedless multitudes, which, on the morrow of His fateful visit to both Europe and America, found themselves suddenly swept into the vortex of a tempest which in its range and severity was unsurpassed in the world's history.
Collateral with this ominous laxity in morals, and this progressive stress laid on man's material pursuits and well-being, is the darkening of the political horizon, as witnessed by the widening of the gulf separating the protagonists of two antagonistic schools of thought which, however divergent in their ideologies, are to be commonly condemned by the upholders of the standard of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh for their materialistic philosophies and their neglect of those spiritual values and eternal verities on which alone a stable and flourishing civilization can be ultimately established. The multiplication, the diversity and the increasing destructive power of armaments to which both sides, in this world contest, caught in a whirlpool of fear, suspicion and hatred, are rapidly contributing; the outbreak of two successive bloody conflicts, entangling still further the American nation in the affairs of a distracted world, entailing a considerable loss in blood and treasure, swelling the national budget and progressively depreciating the currency of the state; the confusion, the vacillation, the suspicions besetting the European and Asiatic nations in their attitude to the American nation; the overwhelming accretion of strength to the arch enemy of the system championed by the American Union in consequence of the re-alignment of the powers in the Asiatic continent and particularly in the Far East--these have, moreover, contributed their share, in recent years, to the deterioration of a situation which, if not remedied, is bound to involve the American nation in a catastrophe of undreamed-of dimensions and of untold consequences to the social structure, the standard and conception of the American people and government.
No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty--so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by `Abdu'l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation--of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of `Abdu'l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities.
The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed, from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in the hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery tribulations will not only firmly weld the American nation to its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by `Abdu'l-Bahá's unerring pen--a role which she is bound to fulfill through travail and sorrow.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How can you know what their intent was?
I do not think we can know that. There might have been another reason that fictional stories were told.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
People ask for proof of Baha'u'llah, constantly....
What us going on in America right now ALONE is proof because it was all predicted 150 years ago..
Are people really that blind?
Nuff said.
People ask for proof of Baha'u'llah, constantly....
What us going on in America right now ALONE is proof because it was all predicted 150 years ago..
Are people really that blind?
Nuff said.
There may be still time to build communities, but I see the world is so distracted with many issues being faced and Covid-19 has really shown what happens if we fail to unite and work together.
It does appear the world will choose to suffer for some time yet.
Saw an interesting show yesterday where Japan sees the need for a Universal Language, but they were suggesting it should be simple Japanese and not English.
Looks like all the issues that Baha'u'llah mentioned are all being discussed!
Regards Tony
This subject has been answered in detail in the Baha'i Writings.
This link will explain why stories are used to explain spiritual concepts
Basically... "when you undertake to express these intelligible realities, you have no recourse but to cast them in the mould of the sensible, for outwardly there is nothing beyond the sensible. Thus, when you wish to express the reality of the spirit and its conditions and degrees, you are obliged to describe them in terms of sensible things, since outwardly there exists nothing but the sensible. For example, grief and happiness are intelligible things, but when you wish to express these spiritual conditions you say, “My heart became heavy”, or “My heart was uplifted”, although one’s heart is not literally made heavy or lifted up. Rather, it is a spiritual or intelligible condition, the expression of which requires the use of sensible terms....."
The stories would be based in events that happened, used loosely to explain deeper spiritual realities and were not stories based on entirely material happenings.
Regards Tony
That is very easy to say after the fact. Remember Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi offered great detail, before the facts.
Do not forget those that persecuted and banished Baha'u'llah did so because they could not prove Him wrong, all He said, that they thought they could use to show him false, soon turned against them when they found he had quoted a source they did not know about, or had predicted what would happen.
If the greatest enemies of Baha'u'llah could not find him false in word and claim, then why should we be trying to do that? If what Baha'u'llah offered is true, why have we not chosen unity and peace?
This is where faith is up to each of us, this is the judgement that is in all the Holy books, it is our response that defines us in this life.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That all depends upon what you are reading.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Because sadly, to date most people either do not know about Baha'u'llah or if they know they have rejected Him.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What if they define their one God different than a Baha'i? But then we also have people that say there are many Gods. So, for a Baha'i, those people are wrong, but all those that say there is only one God, yet define him differently, are correct? Like the trinitarian Christian definition... One God but in three parts.
I see the many God's that people see and have made of One God, I also see the trinity aspect that Christians built a doctrine upon our One God.
There is no person, or even a Messenger that can define God.
What we can do, given that there is now an answer given, is consider how One can be seen to be many in ways we may not yet have considered.
In the end what have we given up to know that One God is seen in our diversity of practice. It may just change our lives for the better, remove many built up predudices.
Regards Tony