God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[TransmutingSoul]

Ṛta is not a God. It is the law of the universe. Like a star with less than 1.6 solar masses turning into a red dwarf (which, one day some 5 billion years from now, our sun would be).
'Dharma' are the rules which a society creates for its peaceful conduct.
God is not necessary for any of the two, 'Ṛta' as well as 'Dharma'.

I did not say Rta was God, we have no idea as to the Essence of God, but I do see it the Message from God, the law of creation.

From what I have read of the concepts, In this world Rta is revealed through an Avatar, Messenger, who show us the Dharma.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, the track record of people that put their "faith" in religion isn't very good. Maybe the Baha'is will be better, but the other religions sure killed and exploited a lot of people. That's why some people demand proof.

It is up to each of us to change that track record, if we do not like what happened, then change ourselves and make it better.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the system had a flaw. People were capable of corrupting the true message. But, with the Baha'i Faith, God finally figured out how to avoid that?

There is no flaw in the way God gives the Message CG, it is perfect for the purpose and age it was given in.

It is up to us to avoid the mistakes men have made in the past.

We are just as capable of getting it wrong, we can only hope we can find the humility and a more mature attitude before we destroy each other and this planet.

The mentality of the chosen leaders are not giving us much hope, but then what mentality elected them?

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Any method of delivering messages that allow for so many conmen, evil, wrongdoing to flourish is by definition flawed.

You can clearly see the flaws in this thread as people who believe a god is sending messages are all getting different messages.

That is if there is a god sending anything which is the most probable.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There can never be proof that anyone got a message from God, only evidence that indicates that happened.
So we either see the evidence as evidence, or not.

So give us the evidence. Don't make a claim about anyone most of us have never heard of.

You don't seem to understand that if few actually hear the messenger or message, that's a flaw. You then go to blaming humans for not getting a message they never knew anything about. Your reasoning is flawed.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

So the system had a flaw. People were capable of corrupting the true message. But, with the Baha'i Faith, God finally figured out how to avoid that?

The Baha'i Faith hasn't figure anything out. Because few have actually heard of it.

TB will now blame us for not hearing about it. Her reasoning is flawed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, by virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah we had appointed interpreters of the Writings ..

You interpret and that makes it different from the original, although the original also is word salad. However, does it matter? God / Allah is human imagination and prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis have not offered any proof or evidence, since there is none.

 

[Aupmanyav]

From what I have read of the concepts, In this world Rta is revealed through an Avatar, Messenger, who show us the Dharma.

I do not know what and where have you read anything. But Rta existed even before Gods. RigVeda says it very clearly.

"The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?"
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I have no idea how the Bible came to be written the way it was written but I imagine there must have been a reason. However, I do not think it is relevant to this new age. Baha'u'llah wrote that dwelling on the stories of the past is a grave mistake and a grievous transgression

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

The bible was written like Kitab-i-iquan byMen who could write long paragraphs that say little. That make unproven claims. Then provide zero proof.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Of course the Baha'i Faith is similar to Islam, it grew out of Islam and it is closest in chronological time to Islam since Islam is a newer religion than Buddhism, Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism.

The 8 Oldest Religions in the World

• Hinduism (founded around the 15th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Zoroastrianism (10th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Judaism (9th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Jainism (8th – 2nd century BCE) ...
• Confucianism (6th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Buddhism (6th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Taoism (6th – 4th century BCE) ...
• Shintoism (3rd century BCE – 8th century CE)

The 8 Oldest Religions in the World - Culture Trip

BS. I'll refer you to my thread on the relevance of religion with this link. Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

Men were inventing religions long before Hinduism.

 

[Truthseeker]

Of course the Baha'i Faith is similar to Islam, it grew out of Islam and it is closest in chronological time to Islam since Islam is a newer religion than Buddhism, Hinduism, or Zoroastrianism.

The 8 Oldest Religions in the World

• Hinduism (founded around the 15th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Zoroastrianism (10th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Judaism (9th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Jainism (8th – 2nd century BCE) ...
• Confucianism (6th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Buddhism (6th – 5th century BCE) ...
• Taoism (6th – 4th century BCE) ...
• Shintoism (3rd century BCE – 8th century CE)

The 8 Oldest Religions in the World - Culture Trip

Jainism is a religion, I think, but I am not sure. It doesn't seem to have arisen from a Manifestation of God. That doesn't mean that thee aren't some truths to learn from it if someone wants to investigate it. We are to be sympathetic to ideas even if they are outside of Revelations from God.

Confucianism was not originally a religion, but was the philosophy of Confucius, but was turned into a religion by some. Confucius used reason and his moral compass gleaned from traditional morals to reveal a philosophy.

Taoism also, as far as I can tell, was a philosophy, but does seem more religion-like than Confucianism. Taoism seems to originally have some what I would call mystic attitudes. In China, it was combined by some with Buddhism from India to create a distinctive Buddhist perspective.

Shintoism I haven't liked very much. It sees spirits controlling nature and there are shrines to ancestors in some homes. It is a ritual kind of religion more than a moral religion. Some Japanese still do the rituals without really believing in the underlying perspective of the religion.

I don't have time in my life to investigate all these things further to get whatever truths may be there.

 

[Truthseeker]

There is no 'Bahai interpretation' of Hinduism. Baha'u'llah did not address Hinduism so there is no way to know which of the many Hindu beliefs are accurate, if any. I never see Baha'is talk about Hinduism in the United States unless they are goaded into it on forums. By contrast, American Baha'is have a reason to talk about Christianity because most people they talk to are Christians.

There is a book called "Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith" by Moojen Momen that talks about mainly what Hinduism and Baha'i have in common, but of course it is his perspective is his own and is not an official Baha'i view of Hinduism, though he is intelligent and has good insight into things, I have found.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not know what and where have you read anything. But Rta existed even before Gods. RigVeda says it very clearly.

"The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?"
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

From my reading of those passages, I see those passages talk of the One God and the Mystery of Creation, that man has made the many God's

Luckily, Baha'u'llah has explained the mystery of creation in great detail, detail that is in compliance with science.

The explanation of the questions your quoted Passage asks have now been given, and the closing passage is the possible key;

"... Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not..."

I see this talks of the One God, but who has that Knowledge of God and Creation? We now know that the Messengers have and can give us that knowledge.

This is the opening paragraph of the 'Tablet of the Universe', to me it explains a few of the questions asked in the passage you offered

"... Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification...."

We no longer have to live with past scriptures, they have all been explained in what Baha'u'llah offered.

At the same time I also say, you do not have to see it that way, and I am not here to convince you either way. I can only offer there are different frames of references available. Truth is subjective, how willing are we to search into all things?

Regards Tony

 

[night912]

I never said it is based upon logic, but it is based upon evidence. The evidence indicates that most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe; and that if they do not have a religion most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger; and that if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Logic is required for accepting "information" as evidence for a proposition.

But let's move on to what's in bold above, and compare it to your claim below.

There are many reasons why only a few people recognize the new Messenger when He appears on earth. The main reason is because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. Secondly, if they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. Thirdly, if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. You are a case in point.

Your initial claim is false. Let's look at it logically.

Your claim only represent one particular group out of the whole. So unless if it includes everyone or at the very least, the majority, then it is not the "MAIN" reason. The reason that I gave included everyone. So in short, which one can be seen as logically true as the "main" reason?

Mine: because they don't believe.

Yours: because some people believes this, while some believes that, and others just don't like it.

That evidence can be found in the many posts that have been posted on this forum, what peoples say.

Here's evidence for your irrational thinking. It's irrational to take what's posted on this forum and claim that it represents everyone in this world.

I'll address your other comments later when I have the time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Baha'i Faith hasn't figure anything out. Because few have actually heard of it.

TB will now blame us for not hearing about it. Her reasoning is flawed.

You have now heard about it. Thee is no one else to blame but our own selves.

There is no excuse in this life if we choose not to look at, and develop our spiritual selves.

If one wishes to remain but an amimal in this world, that is their choice. I personally see it is not a good choice.

Jesus did offer one must be born again, a simple truth is this;

John 3:6 "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit".

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't have time in my life to investigate all these things further to get whatever truths may be there.

Neither do I.... I can barely keep up answering all my posts.

 

[Trailblazer]

proof or evidence, since there is none..

None that you like.

 

[Trailblazer]

So give us the evidence. Don't make a claim about anyone most of us have never heard of.

I posted the evidence here: #688

You don't seem to understand that if few actually hear the messenger or message, that's a flaw.

A flaw in what? The message is out there for anyone who is a true seeker. Back in my day when there was no internet people even found the message of Baha'u'llah, how much easier it is to find it now. It is even listed among the world religions:

BBC - Religion: Religions

BBC - Religion: Bahá'í

You then go to blaming humans for not getting a message they never knew anything about. Your reasoning is flawed.

I am not blaming anyone for anything, you are the one doing all the blaming....
They can find it of they are really seeking Truth, but if they never find it they are not held accountable for rejecting it, as long as they led a life according to the teachings of Jesus.

"Then as to what thou hast asked me for pious people who died before they heard the Voice of this Manifestation. Listen: Those who have mounted to God before hearing the Voice, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path,they have obtained this Dazzling Light after their rising to the Kingdom of God. I pray God to lift the veil for thee and to corroborate by the spirit of experience, so that all may be evident to thee, by the Holy Spirit of God."

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 478)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't have time in my life to investigate all these things further to get whatever truths may be there.

I would agree and as the Hidden Words is the Essence of all past scriptures, as such, all that can be gained from those scriptures, can be pursued from a study of the Hidden Words.

At the same time, people quote scriptures trying do disprove Baha'u'llah and all I see is affirmation of what Baha'u'llah offered.

Thus I see it is just our chosen frame of reference, are we looking for God in all things, or have we limited the scope of where we look for God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i Faith hasn't figure anything out. Because few have actually heard of it.

The fact that few people have heard of it does not mean it hasn't figured anything out. There is no correlation.
Before there were airplanes only a few people had figured out we could fly in the air, but now everyone knows.

TB will now blame us for not hearing about it. Her reasoning is flawed.

I am not blaming anyone for not knowing about it, but now that you know, what difference does it make?

It would be good if more Baha'is were spreading the message of Baha'u'llah , but people do not have to hear about it in order to find it. If they are really searching, they can find it. This is the information age.