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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Neither Krishna nor Buddha established Hinduism or Buddhism. Krishna was the eighth avatara of Lord Vishnu (we do not have messengers. Theist Hindus believe that God himself turns up in human form). One cannot put limits to what a God or Goddess can do, except that they will not engage in evil. Buddha was sixth of the historical Buddhas (and to Hindus the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu).
Who founded Buddhism?
Siddhartha Gautama
Buddhism is a faith that was founded by Siddhartha Gautama (“the Buddha”) more than 2,500 years ago in India.Oct 12, 2017

Buddhism - Definition, Founder & Origins - HISTORY


Who founded Hinduism?

Unlike other religions, Hinduism has no one founder but is instead a fusion of various beliefs. Around 1500 B.C., the Indo-Aryan people migrated to the Indus Valley, and their language and culture blended with that of the indigenous people living in the region.Oct 6, 2017
Beliefs: Saṃsāra
Texts: Puranas; Ramayana; Bhagavad Gita...
Deity Or Deities: Brahma; Shiva; Vishnu; Trimurti; Devi

Hinduism - Origins, Facts & Beliefs - HISTORY
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Why does the Bible, a book of human expressed writings claim that no man is God?

And why does it quote never give God a defined name again?

When science is the only artificial human chosen not natural history application by male group choice of humans living upon a naturally formed planet in space, that owned its own heavenly body?

Are you trying to infer that a human came as an evolved further than body of ground water/living bio form as some other form of a spirit before a bio life organic living human organism. Only quoted human by being cell/blood and chemical bio life owner to be quantified to be a living human?

As a fake God theme, as if the male/man/men telling the scientific thesis own a quote that they believed they first owned the power of God as man/men/male groups? As a science thesis, to think upon first. Without owning either planet body mass or the natural heavenly gas spirits. Seeing we lived inside a water oxygenated body?

For that is the first history, theist, human, group agreement, the sciences, in want of owning the power of the quantified presence of God. Meaning to change God the mass planet by conscious awareness of the spirit gases in the heavens. What we were not using, they just exist as part of the heavenly body. Scientific aware information before the practice of science.

In science that body was the stone body, the only place where human inferred sciences came from.

If you claim in bio Nature that a human came from the one first body of stone like the heavenly gases had, then you would infer that a human owns one spirit body of bones, like stone. Yet no mention of it living as a living bio life form if you compared a human bio living life to the body of God the one stone mass. First reference, where the gases came from...the stone planet body ejection.

Science powers, to change/convert the mass body and get energy/reactions. Science.

Thinking does not in any form of imposition own the power/energy of mass or bodies in space. Space owns it.

So then you ask a male science theist why he intentionally quoted Mother to be space and also Abomination of the Mother, spatial radiation changes?

For as a male and man and human he first owned the presence term natural day light. And evening clear cold night time spatial cold support the Holy Mother theme....in natural life. Hence where is any theory to the contrary of that natural circumstance to claim self a higher evolved presence after water mass, his life supported body?

Going back in time to the gas state is either a non alight gas/water atmosphere which is not a life support as a theme. And going back to gases alight is gases alight.

Water owned the cooling of the gases burning in a spatial vacuum.

So then you read a scientific quote that says I became A meaning alpha and the DAM....for I changed natural balances EVENing....and the Holy spatial night time sky sacrificed my life, male light owner, the ALPHA status.

So quotes, EVE the abomination radiation changes to the night time sky burning for 7 days did it. For you cannot abstract count a day light condition when day light is a constant.

Therefore straight away you realise that a male theist/scientist quotes he sacrificed/converted the male and female natural life by ADAM/ADAM quotes...did it to both selves he quoted equally.

Alpha status owner of living in holy water by natural light day ownership. Life never has owned any other natural history but presence of the day light 12 hours constant not 12 hours. So if you just think light is a constant for 12 hours, first you coerce self mind to think incorrectly. Daylight is non stop constant with no timing evaluation.

Natural day light is just gases burning in a spatial vacuum with ground water/oxygenated microbial mass existing in that history, natural history.

There is no variation to that history.

If you write a document that quotes no MAN is God, we are both a HU MAN, then you quoted that no human was ever a God.

And that science irradiated night time evening sky and changed life in science causes to quote....I A dam life...by the nation. To claim it was an Abomination event that science caused. I A then became outcome AI...the artificial effect...by will of the alpha male status....life owner, scientist converter.

As science is only living human expressed by humans for and on behalf of humans.

No other form consciousness expresses the human inferred/implied references to human sciences, for human and because of human consciousness in a human life form. Yet you all try to convince everyone that natural cosmological history is a God theme owner of your science quoted Numbers for science conditions, Earth owned and Earth built machines.

As the male lying coercive science condition as owned and preached by you ever since you invented the sciences. Always quoting and I know how you human self got created by scientific reasoning. As if thinking owns the words that details how a human before they were a human got invented theorised by the thinker human.

Who pretends that they are a God personally speaking on behalf of the term God as the storyteller.

Human science knows that Trees exist first in bio life oxygenated water atmosphere, then animals. Animals are not any speaking body of God. A human living after animal life however makes past looking back quotes about why those animals exist. What about when the animals did not exist, as some form of theory where they came from as an animal.

An animal spirit would be what a Satanic theist would quote is where the animal came from....a pre existing spirit form that evolved from a cloud image into a manifested life body. So how does a cloud mass evolve past itself, when clouds disappear when water is released?

Are you science brother trying to quote....we are nearly a water bio life because water fell out of the clouds? Which would be an inane theory.

However if you discussed why life Natural was sacrificed then you would own a book writing with a quote that God did it. Quoting your idea of God attacking life was a destructive ground reaction/fission nuclear event. As a correct Bible discussion.

And not some fake thinking human ability to tell stories and theorise thinking when you own no status that links a completed, formed and ended life that owns self presence as the body of your discussion. If a human life/bio body did not live formed, then you cannot talk or infer information about it.

Therefore whenever a human contested the scientific community it was to question, so how did a cloud mass evolve past being a cloud to own a spirit image to become a bio life form as if a spirit existed first?

As a human who can think about spirit I always taught my own self that there is no proof to the claim of spirit pre existing as a spirit before a bio life as a truthful human storyteller.

But in either case of a subject discussion a living human looking back and theorising is just a human thinking telling stories. And neither scientist was ever correct, for science was in fact first used to infer machine designs and for machine reactions.

As a human telling a story in science claiming I know how you got created, is quite a human scientific claim, when they are just a human their own selves. How do they express when they are not a human, as a human? The real answer, when a human is deceased is the only story about when you are not a human.

To talk about the presence human, is because a human is present to talk about.

Animals living as animals are not a theist scientist pretending, and now from my body and life form a human will magically appear for a scientific thesis of where a human came from. When it owns no personal relative historic advice for any reason other than to argue for the sake of egotism. In the claim of I know it all.

What I learnt as a human who has spiritual experience, the eternal was where the creation was released from into burning, so became a hole in the eternal body, which is not space. Space is the hole, the burnt eternal the creation.

So we claim spiritually when we die we still own the eternal, for our eternal spirit never changed, and we are just living a fallen human experience. For the eternal cannot be in our past. It is stated to be in our future when we personally physically die as a human life.

Which is why I quote spiritually that it cannot be proven, for it cannot be proven. And is the one belief that a human can own without science claiming ownership details of it. For it is not in creation by termed reference, the body portion that never changed.

Space itself does change, mass disappears in spatial conversions and so opens more space into expansion of space. Space was quantified to be an infinite number as you could not count how expansive it was. Never was space explained to be the eternal unchanged body.

Science therefore argues against a thinking story that cannot be proven by science or a living human. Yet a spiritual human is allowed to believe in it....science however should not....for when we talk eternal we are not discussing infinite space conditions.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
So, God is going to write the equivalent if 15,000 Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote in the sky for all of the 7.8 billion people alive on earth to SEE?

God does not 'check in' with humans because God is not our servant, we are God's servants.

No fault is involved. It is only by God's mercy and grace that He sends Messengers, and then people complain about them. That is like if someone gave you a free gift and you threw it back in their face.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68


Proof was offered, another thing that people throw back in God's Face. Not God's problem
God doesn't have to tell us Baha writings he only has to tell us he is the messenger. God might say Baha isn't a messenger.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
So, God is going to write the equivalent if 15,000 Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote in the sky for all of the 7.8 billion people alive on earth to SEE?


Proof was offered, another thing that people throw back in God's Face. Not God's problem
god related 14,000 messages inTablets to Baha'u'llah. Then Baha'u'llah wrote them to see them ignored by the majority. It would have been easier and more effective if god told us directly.

God didn't offer us anything as you say it's not god's job to talk to us. We threw the messages back in the face of false men.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
It was ushered in in 1844, but the kings and rulers of that time rejected Baha'u'llah so the Most Great Peace did not come, but it will be established during this age, after more people start to follow the counsels of Baha'u'llah.
So the age of peace never happened. Stop making false claims.

The method is not flawed just because the majority do not get the message in the first centuries.
Circular reasoning.

That's unfortunate for them. If they believed they would understand who Adam was.
You didn't answer my question. Who, where, when is Adam.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is called the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How many Christians do you think there were in the first centuries?

“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

Christianity grew because it became the official religion of the Roman Empire:

Constantine turns the tide

When a Roman soldier, Constantine, won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Constantine then needed to establish exactly what the Christian faith was and called the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD which formulated and codified the faith.

BBC - Religions - Christianity: The basics of Christian history
So Constantine and the Council of Nicea compiled the NT. Were they in touch with god throughout that job or was it a political exercise.

Did Constantine decide what books belonged in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...hUKEwjgvKLZ3p_sAhUGqaQKHVUFD_0Q4dUDCA0&uact=5

A lot of proof he did it for political reasons.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
“This question of the union of the white and the black is very important,” He warns, “for if it is not realized, erelong great difficulties will arise, and harmful results will follow.” “If this matter remaineth without change,” is yet another warning, “enmity will be increased day by day, and the final result will be hardship and may end in bloodshed.”
The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 39
So no mention of America, just a vague piece of gobblygook about black and white.

If in the early 19th century anyone could predict the rise of America and then it's later fall to 2nd or even 3rd place in the pecking order that would indicate a special power.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
No, it is the usual case for a Messenger of God, in the first centuries:

“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193). Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
Today we have far better means of communication. So your example misses by a country mile.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I guess you do not know much about the history of the Baha'i Faith.

Abdu’l-Baha wrote that the rulers of Palestine envied the respect Baha’u’llah received, and that the growing spiritual influence of his Faith made confinement impossible:

Although the royal [command] specifically decreed that Baha’u’llah was to be held in solitary confinement within the Akka fortress, in a cell, under perpetual guard; that He was never to set foot outside; that He was never even to see any of the believers — notwithstanding such a [command], such a drastic order, His tent was raised in majesty on the heights of Mount Carmel. What greater display of power could there be than this…? – Memorials of the Faithful, p. 27.

The Prophet Leaves the Prison
So he couldn't convince his jailers. You confirmed what I said.

Just like Jesus couldn't convert the temple priests only kicks over the benches of the merchants, Pontius Pilot and many more. Not so good for the son of god. Normal for a mere mortal.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I do not know w[exactly how it would work, but I am sure other Baha'is know more than I do.
I am always too busy answering posts to have time to read.

Oh thank God, someone else has already done the work for me. :)
Google is my friend.

Understanding the Baha’i Peace Plan

The Baha'i Peace Plan
Thank you.

  • Non-violence and love
  • The independent investigation of reality – each person must set aside superstitious beliefs, traditions and blind imitation of ancestral forms of religion
  • The personal courage to speak out against war and injustice
  • Elimination of prejudices of all kinds
  • An individual commitment to the fundamental unity of all the peoples on the Earth
  • The recognition that belief must be in conformity with science and reason
  • Daily prayer and meditation
  • Commitment to a spiritual path and participation in a spiritual community
  • A consciousness of world citizenship
  • The acceptance of individual responsibility to be a productive member of society, with a useful trade, craft or profession
  • Charitable service to others
  • And kindness and concern for all human beings.
So what happens if a small group decide to get more than the rest by using violence? These are great ideals, but in practice won't work.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Nobody saw that miracle because the Muslims who agreed to it never showed up.

“The envoy found the answers of Bahá’u’lláh so convincing and His wisdom so amazing, although evidently not acquired by study, that he was obliged to confess that in knowledge and understanding Bahá’u’lláh was peerless. In order, however, that the Mullás who had sent him should be satisfied as to the reality of Bahá’u’lláh’s Prophethood, he asked that some miracle should be produced as proof. Bahá’u’lláh expressed His willingness to accept the suggestion on certain conditions, declaring that if the Mullás would agree regarding some miracle to be performed, and would sign and seal a document to the effect that on performance of this miracle they would confess the validity of His mission and cease to oppose Him, 29 He would furnish the desired proof or else stand convicted of imposture. Had the aim of the Mullás been to get at the truth, surely here was their opportunity; but their intention was far otherwise. Rightly or wrongly, they meant to secure a decision in their own favor. They feared the truth and fled from the daring challenge.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 28-29

You can read all about the Opposition of Mullás on this page.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The following story by Haji Mirza Haydar-‘Ali confirms the power of the revealed Word. Haji was introduced to a person who was opposed to the Faith and found it very difficult to be convinced of its truth. This is a summary of his account:

A certain person who was a pious and devoted Muslim was introduced to me. No matter how much I spoke to him, he kept on insisting that he would never accept the Faith unless he was shown a miracle. In the end I was powerless to convince him of the truth of the Faith. So I said to him, ‘There is an inherent ability within every soul by which it can distinguish the words of God from the words of man.’ He agreed with me on this. I then said to him, ‘I will now recite some words for you, so incline your inner ears to them and judge for yourself who is the Speaker.’ I then chanted a Persian Tablet in which the overpowering majesty of the Words was clearly manifested. He had heard only a few verses when he lowered his head, prostrated himself or the ground, and said, ‘These are the words of God, exalted be His glory. There are many miracles hidden in each word. I testify that these utterances unmistakably proclaim the advent of the Day of God . . .’ He stayed with us for the whole night, during which he learnt about the teachings and the laws of the new Dispensation. This man became enraptured and set aglow with the fire of the love of God. (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah v 4, p. 238)

Again, Google is my friend. You can read that story and some other accounts of Miracles on the link below.:

Famous Miracles in the Baha'i Faith
  • The Bab. The Báb cured Munírih Khánum's parents of infertility; and their daughter later became 'Abdu'l-Bahá's wife: ...
  • Bahá'u'lláh. One time, the religious leaders in Persia asked Baha'u'llah to perform a miracle to prove the reality of His mission. ...
  • 'Abdu'l-Bahá ...
  • Shoghi Effendi. ...
  • The Biggest Miracle of All!
May 6, 2015

Famous Miracles in the Baha'i Faith | Ninestar Solutions
Noone saw this miracle, convenient.

As for the other miracle, how does one verify them?
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
God is not responsible to prove he exists.
God is not responsible to DO any of what you listed even if He could.
God has entrusted humans with those responsibilities.

You want some kind in instant solution to fix all the problems humans have created for centuries, but that is not reality. Implementing solutions to all the world's problems take a long time.
God isn't responsible for proving it exists and prove who is the right messenger. LOL
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Yes, sadly the joke is on all those poor saps blindly believing in their respective spiritually void religions based upon some self-ordained spokesperson for some made up "god".
Oneonly has to look at the peace plan and America falling to see Bahais just a self-appointed messenger.

This god didn't approve the 14,000 tablets so Baha made them up.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Fine if He is a Messenger of God, because I have already listed the seven reasons why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth.

#1017 Trailblazer, Today at 2:23 PM
Which is fine for mortal men, bad for messengers of god.

Judge them however you like. It won't make any difference to anyone except yourself.
It would make a huge difference to the world.

It is your reasoning that is flawed, because if an Omnioptent God wanted to do what you propose He would have done it by now.

God will never do that because nobody deserves to know unless they do the work of finding out for themselves.
You want a free ride, but there are no free rides.
So god wants us to do things but can't prove he exists.
And it's our fault for not seeing the flaw in that reasoning.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Yes, sadly the joke is on all those poor saps blindly believing that God speaks to them directly.
No, the sad ones are the people who believe their messenger speaks to a god. The one's who claim they speak to a god are the clever ones. Pulling off the ultimate con. The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

I could defend it if I wanted to, but I don't waste my time on people who only want to prove they are right.
You waste time by posting walls of text that say little. The little verifiable proof you offer is always shot down.

The peace plan is stupid, there is no foretelling of the fall of America.

Allah cannot write Tablets because Allah is Spirit, not flesh.
This is logic 101 stuff.
Allah as god created the world.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
That is not what Baha'is say:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible
So free reign to pick and choose what fits to your thinking. As you say the bible was made by men, prove Baha is a messenger.

You can't have it both ways.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
God did not ever write anything, Please spare me any more Bible anthropomorphisms.
Did this god thing approve any of the messages?

Or did the messengers imagine they communicated with this god thing and went on to write loads of their thoughts?

I am doing what Baha'u'llah enjoined me to do, what He said is most important for a Baha'i to do, because there can be no peace plan without Baha'is to work it....

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds....” Gleanings, p. 278

I see nothing in there about teaching the older religions.
So you're here to teach and convert us to Bahaism?
 
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