God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Noone saw this miracle, convenient.

As for the other miracle, how does one verify them?

Miracles are only proof to those who witness them. That's why they are not good proofs.

 

[Trailblazer]

God isn't responsible for proving it exists and prove who is the right messenger. LOL

God absolutely ISN'T responsible for that. LOL. We are responsible for determining that, IF we want to know.

 

[Trailblazer]

So god wants us to do things but can't prove he exists.
And it's our fault for not seeing the flaw in that reasoning.

God is under no obligation to prove He exists. To think that is flawed reasoning.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't have it both ways.

Yes I can.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did this god thing approve any of the messages?

Or did the messengers imagine they communicated with this god thing and went on to write loads of their thoughts?

That is for you to determine.

So you're here to teach and convert us to Bahaism?

Only if people show an interest and ask questions do we teach. We are enjoined to convert anyone.
Belief should always be a choice people make.

 

[Trailblazer]

To write the messages on tablets in a form that no man could do.
To indicate Bahá'u'lláh is its messenger by writing in a way no man can.
Or maybe writing to tell us who is the messenger we should listen to, might not be Bahá'u'lláh.
To show it exists.


An easy one to answer.

To prove it exists
To show us which messenger we should listen to
To stop all the evil things done in its name
So that we know it is there and it loves us
So that we know we will go to heaven after this life at the moment many of us only hope.
To explain why it gives newborn babies crippling diseases

Just saying why should he bother is a bad copout andallows evil peopleto do evil things.

God does not want to prove He exists in the ways you want Him to prove that, and that is the whole ball of wax.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because there are many false witnesses makes it imperative the true ones provide proof.

Baha'u'llah did provide proof.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

The age-old "Unless you follow my messenger my way you're not getting into a place I have no proof of."

I don't believe in heaven or hell, they're made-up places to keep the peasants quiet.

I do not believe that heaven and hell are places either; rather, they are states of the soul, nearness to God or distance from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If his Allah was unknowable then he should have kept silent about it. Why then a life-time of yakking?

The Essence of God is unknowable, but God's Attributes and God's Will are knowable, as revealed through the Messengers.
All the yakking is so God's Will for humans can be known.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Adam was the first Messenger (Manifestation of God) in the Adamic Cycle of religion.

41: THE UNIVERSAL CYCLES​

Question.—What is the real explanation of the cycles which occur in the world of existence?
Answer.—Each one of the luminous bodies in this limitless firmament has a cycle of revolution which is of a different duration, and every one revolves in its own orbit, and again begins a new cycle. So the earth, every three hundred and sixty-five days, five hours, forty-eight minutes and a fraction, completes a revolution; and then it begins a new cycle—that is to say, the first cycle is again renewed. In the same way, for the whole universe, whether for the heavens or for men, there are cycles of great events, of important facts and occurrences. When a cycle is ended, a new cycle begins; and the old one, on account of the great events which take place, is completely forgotten, and not a trace or record of it will remain. As you see, we have no records of twenty thousand years ago, although we have before proved by argument that life on this earth is very ancient. It is not one hundred thousand, or two hundred thousand, or one million or two million years old; it is very ancient, and the ancient records and traces are entirely obliterated.

Each of the Divine Manifestations has likewise a cycle, and during the cycle His laws and commandments prevail and are performed. When His cycle is completed by the appearance of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. In this way cycles begin, end and are renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world, when important events and great occurrences will take place which entirely efface every trace and every record of the past; then a new universal cycle begins in the world, for this universe has no beginning. We have before stated proofs and evidences concerning this subject; there is no need of repetition.

Briefly, we say a universal cycle in the world of existence signifies a long duration of time, and innumerable and incalculable periods and epochs. In such a cycle the Manifestations appear with splendor in the realm of the visible until a great and supreme Manifestation makes the world the center of His radiance. His appearance causes the world to attain to maturity, and the extension of His cycle is very great. Afterward, other Manifestations will arise under His shadow, Who according to the needs of the time will renew certain commandments relating to material questions and affairs, while remaining under His shadow.

We are in the cycle which began with Adam, and its supreme Manifestation is Bahá’u’lláh.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 160-161

There is not a lot written about Adam, as noted on the links below:

Adam - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Adam - Bahai9

Adam was the first Messenger (Manifestation of God) in the Adamic Cycle of religion.

​

​

So that's who and as the 1st messenger he wouldn't have been the 1st man as the bible claimed.

The rest is pure gobblygook within any scientific evidence.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

There is a lot more written about America, but I have time limits so I cannot look up everything that is in the Baha'i Writings.

Post what's asked of you and stop posting walls of text.

 

[Trailblazer]

So that's who and as the 1st messenger he wouldn't have been the 1st man as the bible claimed.

Of course Adam was not the first man, as the Bible claims. Man has existed for about 200,00 years.
There were many universal cycles of religion before the Adamic Cycle. God sent Messengers during those cycles but there is no record of those Messengers because that is long before the art of writing was developed.

As you can see on the outline below, the present Universal Cycle of religion includes the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and the Baha’i Cycle (Cycle of Fulfillment). The Baha’i Cycle will last no less than 500,000 years and all the Messengers of God (Manifestations of God) that appear during the cycle will be under the shadow of Baha'u'llah.

TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY

I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

· A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 years

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets

· B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle

a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum)

i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)

b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -

i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere
iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans
iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development
v. Successive further Epochs

c. Golden Age
Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace

3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh

· END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Ages and Cycles

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you.

• Non-violence and love
• The independent investigation of reality – each person must set aside superstitious beliefs, traditions and blind imitation of ancestral forms of religion
• The personal courage to speak out against war and injustice
• Elimination of prejudices of all kinds
• An individual commitment to the fundamental unity of all the peoples on the Earth
• The recognition that belief must be in conformity with science and reason
• Daily prayer and meditation
• Commitment to a spiritual path and participation in a spiritual community
• A consciousness of world citizenship
• The acceptance of individual responsibility to be a productive member of society, with a useful trade, craft or profession
• Charitable service to others
• And kindness and concern for all human beings.

So what happens if a small group decide to get more than the rest by using violence? These are great ideals, but in practice won't work.

It does work, I do kot know why, but Trailblazer is still responding to your replies, even though you have thrown it back at her for hundreds of posts. That shows a personal courage to speak out about the injustice faced in delivering the message, that is our only hope to peace.

The question is, if they are sound principles, then are people willing to embrace them? The answer is many millions are practising them and they do work. There is a world community built up from people of all Nations and all faiths and no faith, working as one people practising peace amongst the chaos and supporting all others working for peace.

So it can and will work, one person at a time, with continuing culvulsions changing minds as to what this life is all about.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Convince His jailers of what? Sorry, I do not know the entire history of the Baha'i Faith, maybe Tony would know more.

Trailblazer, Baha'u'llah changed the heart of all that met him. This is recorded and one of the greatest proofs of His person as even his enemies could say not a thing about his character.

This person is just playing a game with you, letting you pour out your heart so they can make fun of it.

Your persistent amazes me, I have become very impatient with this world, the opposite of you and God works in mysterious ways. Love your heart Susan.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, Baha'u'llah changed the heart of all that met him. This is recorded and one of the greatest proofs of His person as even his enemies could say not a thing about his character.

Thanks for that information. I am sure I read that somewhere but I could not find the source.

This person is just playing a game with you, letting you pour out your heart so they can make fun of it.

Yes, I know, but that is on him, not on me. I just do my work for Baha'u'llah and God as best I can.

Your persistent amazes me, I have become very impatient with this world, the opposite of you and God works in mysterious ways.

My rope is long but I am getting to the end of my rope with some people on this thread, and I might cut and run soon and leave them to themselves soon if it continues, as even I have limits. If they do not want what we have, they don't want it, and that's fine by me. I can leave this thread as easily as I started it. Moreover, what they do not know is that you and I are holding all the high cards in this game and they cannot take those cards away.

Regarding the world, since I live in the United States, well, you can only imagine what I am going through if you watch the news.

Love your heart Susan.

Thanks Tony, I love yours as well.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Regarding the world, since I live in the United States, well, you can only imagine what I am going through if you watch the news.

Yes I can Susan, and I pray for you all. In Australia Materialism is also very deep and in a way, we seem to reflect the issues faced in America. Our race relationships are also not good and are like a powder keg ready to ignight. Racism is deep in the minds of many white Australians. As a child I lived amongst extreme racist views and I understand why many Aboriginal find it hard to come to terms with what they faced.

Hang on Susan and all the best for you, your other half and your cats.

It will be interesting to see how we connect with the animal spirit in the next world, somehow I see any compassion shown to animals in this world, will shed light in the world's to come.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for that information. I am sure I read that somewhere but I could not find the source.

Some answered questions is one source of a short talk on this, Abdu'lbaha mentions this aspect in this talk;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

The main place to find these topics are in the Dawnbreakers and The 4 volume Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Here is an article I found on that subject:

Understanding and Eliminating Oppression

"But when I tried to explain it to my neighbor, he couldn't understand what I was talking about. Or why it mattered."

Much like my understanding of it. If you can't answer in a clear and concise manner, don't send me to pages of gobblygook that can't explain it.

Again how do you think a world of peace and harmony can exist without men with guns to protect the weak from the evil. Unless you're waiting for a change in Human nature.

Yes, you get to decide whether or not to believe God exists.

No, God never changes any of His rules to suit us. He does whatever He chooses.

But he does according to you he changes the rules to suit the times. I only believe in what I think is credible and has evidence. Like I believe junk yards have cars in them because I can see. This god fellow I can't.

That is for you to determine.

Only if people show an interest and ask questions do we teach. We are enjoined to convert anyone.
Belief should always be a choice people make.

It'sup to you to educate us, stop dodging.

It would be nice if you could answer my questions.

God does not want to prove He exists in the ways you want Him to prove that, and that is the whole ball of wax.

So this god fellow doesn't want to prove he exists, a nice copout. Did it ever occur to you that there is no god, you have no proof of a god. Baha'u'llah can't provide the proof by writing gobblygook. He can only indicate it by foretelling the rise and fall of America by predicting it in the early 19th century when America was way down the list. The Ottoman Empire, Britain, France, Russia were big powers in the 19th century. List of modern great powers - Wikipedia

Now if you took time to quote Baha'u'llah predicting the rise and fall to 2nd or 3rd place, you would get me believing Baha'u'llah was a visionary. As you have so far refused and given nothing. I'm thinking one of us has it wrong. I will ask you again, where did Baha'u'llah predict the rise and fall of America. Give me the plan to bring world peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some answered questions is one source of a short talk on this, Abdu'lbaha mentions this aspect in this talk;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

I just discovered that the older version of Some Answered Questions in the Baha'i Reference Library does not have the Foreword or the Author's Preface as does the newer version of BRL you linked to.... So now I have something to add to my collection of Word documents.

I normally do not use the newer version of the BRL because it is very difficult to navigate and search for what I am looking for.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Trailblazer, Baha'u'llah changed the heart of all that met him. This is recorded and one of the greatest proofs of His person as even his enemies could say not a thing about his character.

This person is just playing a game with you, letting you pour out your heart so they can make fun of it.

Your persistent amazes me, I have become very impatient with this world, the opposite of you and God works in mysterious ways. Love your heart Susan.

Regards Tony

Did he change the heart of the people who put him in jail for 24 years? Did he change the heart of the actual jailors?

His aims are wonderful targets but they need men with guns to make sure peace is kept. In America there are many places where there is no peace even with police on the streets. List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

The world is plagued by wars and strife. List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia

The aims of Baha'u'llah are nice but writing them down isn't going to achieve much. Because there are men who will do harm to others unless stopped.