God and his free will

[Skwim]

But then I would ask, "Could you have wanted to have done differently?" If so, what would have made you want to do so, and etc. Free will is just too broad a term, open to too many objections to coherently defend.

Oh, I agree that it's indefensible, but not to broad a concept to discuss. I've always let the pro-freewillers lead with their argument and then go into its shortcomings.

 

[Willamena]

All decisions must either be based on some decision-making process (and be determined by it) or random. There aren't any other options.

Does something exempt free will from decision-making? That's a new one.

 

[PolyHedral]

Does something exempt free will from decision-making? That's a new one.

No, but all decision making processes are deterministic.

 

[Nakosis]

But then I would ask, "Could you have wanted to have done differently?" If so, what would have made you want to do so, and etc. Free will is just too broad a term, open to too many objections to coherently defend.

For me, freewill is the ability to do what you want to do.
If I can do what I want to do in any particular moment, I have freewill. If I can't then my freewill will is restricted somehow.

 

[Willamena]

No, but all decision making processes are deterministic.

"Self-determination" would seem to include that in its nomenclature.

 

[Skwim]

For me, freewill is the ability to do what you want to do.
If I can do what I want to do in any particular moment, I have freewill. If I can't then my freewill will is restricted somehow.

Because CarlinKnew is a bit reticent to discuss freewill I'll jump in here.

The freewill I'm talking about in the OP is a freedom that's in opposition to any cause that may make one do something. It's not a freedom in the face of external forces restricting one somehow, but the fact that because of the inevitable chain of cause/effect events in our life, both internal and external to us, we don't (actually, can't) do other than what this chain of events leads us to do. We can't do otherwise. If you buy a hot dog instead of a hamburger it's because you HAD to buy that hot dog, There was no real choice in the matter. To have bought a hamburger instead, the chain of cause/effect events that led up to the moment of buying would have to have been different. But they weren't, so you HAD to buy the hot dog. The freedom to choose is therefore an illusion. This freewill thing simply doesn't exist.

 

[idav]

What could that possibly be?

The fluctuations that occur everywhere do seem to be random. When fluctuations occur then a choice appears that would not have been possible under deterministic conditions. If a slew of random choices appear they would be uncaused choices.

 

[uss_bigd]

I would disagree. God knows who will come because He chooses who will come.

John 6:37 " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. "

Quantrill

Jeremiah 7:31

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

nor did It enter his mind ....:yes:

 

[uss_bigd]

We're going a bit deeper than that. I'm looking at what caused one to come to a decision, and to just say "I did" is ignoring the decision making process.

I only had two alternatives, that is; to ignore or to reply. I don't see why you consider it as a complicated decision making process.

 

[.lava]

So far all the debate on free will v. determinism has focused on we folks, but how about god. It's almost a certainty that Christians will declare their god has free will, but what do the determinists here say?

As a determinsist I say

1) God has free will

2) God does not have free will
​

Even though i believe God is beyond any concept I'll still say 'Both' to be understood. It depends cos God makes promises and keeps them

.

 

[PolyHedral]

The fluctuations that occur everywhere do seem to be random. When fluctuations occur then a choice appears that would not have been possible under deterministic conditions. If a slew of random choices appear they would be uncaused choices.

But a choice doesn't appear; it's a randomly decided outcome.

 

[idav]

But a choice doesn't appear; it's a randomly decided outcome.

Depends on how many times we are given the opportunity to decide on something that was not determined. At the very least it is leaves the door open for an uncaused choice.

 

[PolyHedral]

Depends on how many times we are given the opportunity to decide on something that was not determined. At the very least it is leaves the door open for an uncaused choice.

But we are never given any opportunity to decide; all of the causes in the universes are caused either by the fuzziness caused by quantum mechanics, or deterministic effects. There is never some in-between.

 

[idav]

But we are never given any opportunity to decide; all of the causes in the universes are caused either by the fuzziness caused by quantum mechanics, or deterministic effects. There is never some in-between.

The quantum displacement is in wave form showing that one action has many probabilities at once, multiple causes at once. It would just be a matter of harnessing one path of trajectory. With classical physics there could be only one path so if you stand aside it will miss you. With the quantum affect you could literally stand anywhere you want it will become an option outside of determinism.

 

[Skwim]

I only had two alternatives, that is; to ignore or to reply. I don't see why you consider it as a complicated decision making process.

Because in a way it is, at least if you look at the why of it. Why did you choose as you did. You may say because " I____fill in the blank____ ." Then I'll ask you, "why did this particular reason come to mind rather than a reason that would have you deciding differently?" And so on back down the line of causes and effects. So the fact is you did what you did because the line of causes and effects leading up to your decision was what it was. To come to any other decision the line of causes and effects would have to have been necessarily different. But it wasn't, hence the decision you made.

 

[Thief]

So did anyone say so?....

Cause and effect is all fine and good.

God create the universe. He used His will to do so.

But did He have a reason to?

Did He do it because He felt like it?

If your hand does anything at all, it's because you thought you do so...
or because you felt like it.

So if you're looking for reason...fine....maybe God had a reason.
If not..
Then you're looking for reason where there isn't any.

Either way, God is the Cause....the universe is the effect.
I say He did it of His own freewill.
Can't see anyone twisting His arm.

 

[Skwim]

So did anyone say so?....

Cause and effect is all fine and good.

God create the universe. He used His will to do so.

But did He have a reason to?

Did He do it because He felt like it?

If your hand does anything at all, it's because you thought you do so...
or because you felt like it.

So if you're looking for reason...fine....maybe God had a reason.
If not..
Then you're looking for reason where there isn't any.

If so then god does unreasonable things. He commits unreasonable acts.

Either way, God is the Cause....the universe is the effect.

No one is arguing the point.

I say He did it of His own freewill.

Okay.

Can't see anyone twisting His arm.

And that's not what we're addressing here.

 

[Thief]

If so then god does unreasonable things. He commits unreasonable acts.

No one is arguing the point.
Okay.
And that's not what we're addressing here.

Rebuttal would be better if you speak straightforwardly you viewpoint.

So now I have to ask.?...
Do you think God is unreasonable if He 'wants' to create.not having a 'reason'.

If God has want or reason.....He retains His freewill?

 

[Skwim]

Rebuttal would be better if you speak straightforwardly you viewpoint.

Whaaaat?

So now I have to ask.?...
Do you think God is unreasonable if He 'wants' to create.not having a 'reason'.

If God has want or reason.....He retains His freewill?

You're the one suggesting it's possible he could have no reason.

"maybe God had a reason.
If not..
Then you're looking for reason where there isn't any."​

 

[Thief]

Whaaaat?

You're the one suggesting it's possible he could have no reason.

"maybe God had a reason.
If not..
Then you're looking for reason where there isn't any."​

Either way....
If for a thoughtful cause the creation does exist....freewill.
If for a spontaneous desire the creation exists...freewill.

If His thoughts or His feelings were induce by 'something else'...
then we can approach the notion of 'Something' greater than God.

But then we circle about, and ask if that 'something else' has freewill.