God and his hatred of homosexuality

[we-live-now]

I have converted to Ignosticism.

That is an interesting idea. If I understand it correctly, I hear it saying that we are all assuming we are under law and divided up (and assuming too much), and argue and fight with each other over the divisions we created ourselves. However in the "end" it will be revealed it wasn't true. Essentially, we have all created a "god of our imagination" and worshipped him.

In the end (or beginning depending on your "view") it turns out that we are all one (as the new agers believe). .

Any efforts for man to try to define or even name the one true "God" (source, universe, etc.) immediately fail and thus create a false god as they are not correct. (The true infinite can not be contained, defined or even named in any way!)

That is what I personally believe and what I personally see in the study of the whole Bible (and not just the OT or the NT). But, even the written "Word" will be revealed as "incomplete" truth but really "unfulfilled" truth (lacking true "form") once the true living Word appears. (See Genesis 1:2 as it says the "Earth was without form and was void") The entire written Word (Bible "book" itself) will be destroyed as it is fulfilled in the death of this current creation. This is evidenced by verses like this:

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will Matt 24:21

Christians in the institutional church don't think about this and what it is really saying. Or they don't believe the Bible is true (and can never be false).

The word "now" in original Greek is the word "nyn" which is Strong's 3568 and it means "right now at this very present time". Ponder this: Has this one, massive "tribulation" occurred yet?

No, it has not. (If we believe the Bible is "true") How do we know?

Because we can read this verse.

If the Bible is true and the tribulation has occurred already, then this verse would be a lie. But, if the Bible is true and we can read this verse, we have to assume this tribulation has not occurred yet.

When it does, the very form of the entire world will be completely changed. The earth will no longer be "void and lacking form" as Genesis 1:2 says. We will have no more "written" Word (Bibles) to be able to read this verse. We will then ALL KNOW it internally. It will only be the very "living" Word, who is the fulfillment of all the written Word.

If a person removes all their religious thinking and ponders this, they will be amazed. That is only if they believe the Bible is God's Words and is true.

 

[we-live-now]

I hope you do and I hope that you think with love instead of judgment.

Thanks.

Man, do I like what you said. You are not a follower of man. That is very refreshing to me.

This has been my journey the past 1-2 years.

I have been asking and journaling how to reconcile "love and judgment". I have discovered that there is no single answer or formula. But I do know it always ends up with someone dying. Either me (to what I want) or the other person (to what they want) in any interaction.

I am finding the key is being able to look at what we want vs. what they want and be able to be able to discern which is the highest form of truth? Also, "where does truth and love intersect?"

We have to truly know if we are speaking/thinking/living a higher truth or if they are. Have we died to ourselves and they haven't or vise-versa? The person who has died to their own will is the one who will be able to love more and they will see a higher form of truth.

If they have died or surrendered more than we have, then we have to "repent" and surrender to what we hear. If we have died/surrendered more to "self", then they need to surrender and repent so both "agree" with the truth. The very spirit tells us in each moment. We have to listen closely and know the truth.

I believe this always occurs in any interaction of true love where people are also seeking the highest form of truth. Initially, it does feed death to one (who surrenders) but once the words of truth enter them, they always convert to life inside. That is the powerful thing about real truth. It may "kill" us at first during the "conviction" but we all know the peace and life they bring after that. We call this as humans "getting something off our chest".

I used to think it was always me who would die and "surrender" to the other persons will. However, what if they are the (false) "jailer" who is keeping many in bondage and want me to join them (metaphorically speaking)? That is how I see most of the Christian pastors and teachers who oversee many followers and constantly condemn them of their "sins". They are constantly sending the message "you are a sinner and you need me to help you with that." (Stay in the prison I have convinced you of and I will be your "jailer" feeding you and controlling you. Now, give me your money and believe what I tell you and do what I say.)

Here is the thing I heard that powerfully struck me.

What if I am called to speak bold words of truth to the "jailer" which could ultimately convict them (of their own deceived hearts) so they will set the people free that they are keeping in bondage or "prison"?

In that is the case, wouldn't that be an even deeper form of love and truth? You would have truly sacrificed your own well-being and safety to speak to the powerful "jailer" that way in order to "set the captives free".

Thus, I am not sure that truth and love can be separated.

True love is not soft or wimpy (as I am now seeing it). It often steps up to the plate and does and says things that others (the "false" jailers) see as hard or harsh or "unloving" or even worse - taking away their source of income. The "jailers" will often come after you as their "prisoners" they have "following them" are the very source of their livelihood. They do not want to lose their "prisoners" whom they call their "flock".

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Essentially, we have all created a "god of our imagination" and worshipped him.

I suspect that is the case.

 

[sojourner]

Man, do I like what you said. You are not a follower of man. That is very refreshing to me.

This has been my journey the past 1-2 years.

I have been asking and journaling how to reconcile "love and judgment". I have discovered that there is no single answer or formula. But I do know it always ends up with someone dying. Either me (to what I want) or the other person (to what they want) in any interaction.

I am finding the key is being able to look at what we want vs. what they want and be able to be able to discern which is the highest form of truth? Also, "where does truth and love intersect?"

We have to truly know if we are speaking/thinking/living a higher truth or if they are. Have we died to ourselves and they haven't or vise-versa? The person who has died to their own will is the one who will be able to love more and they will see a higher form of truth.

If they have died or surrendered more than we have, then we have to "repent" and surrender to what we hear. If we have died/surrendered more to "self", then they need to surrender and repent so both "agree" with the truth. The very spirit tells us in each moment. We have to listen closely and know the truth.

I believe this always occurs in any interaction of true love where people are also seeking the highest form of truth. Initially, it does feed death to one (who surrenders) but once the words of truth enter them, they always convert to life inside. That is the powerful thing about real truth. It may "kill" us at first during the "conviction" but we all know the peace and life they bring after that. We call this as humans "getting something off our chest".

I used to think it was always me who would die and "surrender" to the other persons will. However, what if they are the (false) "jailer" who is keeping many in bondage and want me to join them (metaphorically speaking)? That is how I see most of the Christian pastors and teachers who oversee many followers and constantly condemn them of their "sins". They are constantly sending the message "you are a sinner and you need me to help you with that." (Stay in the prison I have convinced you of and I will be your "jailer" feeding you and controlling you. Now, give me your money and believe what I tell you and do what I say.)

Here is the thing I heard that powerfully struck me.

What if I am called to speak bold words of truth to the "jailer" which could ultimately convict them (of their own deceived hearts) so they will set the people free that they are keeping in bondage or "prison"?

In that is the case, wouldn't that be an even deeper form of love and truth? You would have truly sacrificed your own well-being and safety to speak to the powerful "jailer" that way in order to "set the captives free".

Thus, I am not sure that truth and love can be separated.

True love is not soft or wimpy (as I am now seeing it). It often steps up to the plate and does and says things that others (the "false" jailers) see as hard or harsh or "unloving" or even worse - taking away their source of income. The "jailers" will often come after you as their "prisoners" they have "following them" are the very source of their livelihood. They do not want to lose their "prisoners" whom they call their "flock".

Here's what I know about love, truth and sin:
Love is truth.
Love is always selfless.
Sin is always selfish.
One has to stand up for one's truth and speak one's truth.

 

[okcitykid]

Per Gnostic scriptures that were thrown out as heretical, evidence that there are also false scriptures.

What a person has to ask is - Really?

All the animals on the earth commit homosexual acts. It is a natural act of birth control when a particular species over populates. There is your answer.

If God truly thought that homosexuals should die for committing the act of homosexuality, surely God would kill them.

I don't see this happening, I therefor conclude that these are words of a false god or false scripture.

More evidence of this is the fact that Jesus never brought up the subject even though when Jesus walked the earth this was very common in the Roman empire.

 

[Ingledsva]

Per Gnostic scriptures that were thrown out as heretical, evidence that there are also false scriptures.

What a person has to ask is - Really?

All the animals on the earth commit homosexual acts. It is a natural act of birth control when a particular species over populates. There is your answer.

If God truly thought that homosexuals should die for committing the act of homosexuality, surely God would kill them.

I don't see this happening, I therefor conclude that these are words of a false god or false scripture.

More evidence of this is the fact that Jesus never brought up the subject even though when Jesus walked the earth this was very common in the Roman empire.

Yep, most, but more likely all, of those texts aren't even about homosexuals. They are about Sacred Sex which is Idolatry, thus worthy of death to the Hebrew.

*

 

[we-live-now]

If there is such a thing as gay it is confined to the (spiritual) or our true "body" under law (death). This true body consists of the outer soul and natural body. QUOTE]

Sorry. I goofed here. I meant it is confined to our "FALSE" body of the outer soul and what we call natural body. Our TRUE body (which is hidden from us outwardly) is our inner soul and inner spirit man who Paul calls our "inner man" but the Bible calls our "heart". 2 Cor 4:16.

All sin has been quarantined to the false, dead outer man who is part spirit, part soul, part body. Jesus calls the false man the "tare" in Matthew 13 and the true inner man "the wheat". The false, outer man is being "cut away" or "circumcised". This is the TRUE (spiritual) circumcision when the foreskin of our spiritual "flesh" is cut away. We fully shed the outer man and become the true person we are.

 

[we-live-now]

Could you say why? Have you talked to many gay people and asked them about this?

It often does in my experience.

I don't disagree with you. My point is that I am convinced that none of us really know who we really are until God speaks to us in our hearts (inner man) and reveals the truth to us. We are all his children regardless of what particular "flavor" of disobedience our body has. Romans 11:32. We were all put into a prison of "disobedience" by God himself. Why? So he can one day set ALL PEOPLE free from it.

Many people who "drink to much" believe they themselves are an "alcoholic". I believe they are a spiritual being who is a son or daughter of God who is simply stuck in a body that is currently addicted to alcohol. They as their true being or person is not their body nor the actions or behavior of their body.

Same for those who call themselves smokers, drug-addicts, over-eaters, etc.

I believe true freedom and spiritual growth/revelation starts when we can separate our behaviors or labels from our true being while truly seeking God on who we really are.

 

[we-live-now]

Both! One's sexual identity is a HUGE part of who one knows oneself to be. One can't change orientation any more than one can change from black to white.

Let's put it this way: How do you know you're heterosexual? How does your attraction to and for females inform your daily life? Probably in a lot of ways that fly under your radar of awareness.

Do you think you could "become" homosexual, if society said you had to? Would that make you happy? Or set you free? Would you feel more authentic and honest about yourself? Do you think you'd be "closer to God?" My guess is that the answer to all of these questions is "no," that is, if you're being really honest with yourself. Why should it be any different for homosexuals?

I hear your points and am thinking about them. I think they are great things for all of us to consider no matter what "side" we feel we are on. Really, I don't believe there are "sides" when we get to the highest level of truth.

I think we are discussing whether a person was born with a homosexual orientation or if they became one due to environmental factors. Is that the essence of this current point?

If so, knowing what I believe about the Bible, sin and this current worlds purpose, I believe some ARE born with the homosexual orientation. No doubt about it.

But, I also believe there also many that became homosexually "oriented" because of their environment, wounding's and what they were taught or told.

What do you think?

 

[we-live-now]

This smacks of thin justification.

Sorry, I don't know what that is. Can you help me to understand what "thin justification" is?

thanks.

 

[we-live-now]

Hmmm... Most Christians I know are trained to do those things.

We can't. It's not intended to be "reconciled" in its entirety.

how do you go about proving one's core identity? I'm convinced that you're trying very hard to justify not accepting homosexuality as a natural and healthy expression of human sexuality.

This is tortured theological justification with no basis in fact.

Can a person prove that they love their spouse?

It's not. It's crazy, schizo theology.

I like and agree that the Bible can't be fully reconciled. Even in the end of Revelation there are still people "outside the gates" who are entering. It's ongoing. But, we can come close and go "higher" than we are told to, can't we?

Are Christians really allowed to think on their own or are they told what to think and believe?

I don't know what your beliefs are. Are you a Christian who attends church regularly?

If you are, try telling your Pastor when you suddenly see a verse of scripture as much better and more powerful than they are allowed to teach or believe (according to their denomination). If you are convinced in your heart, you will be asked to leave. You are not allowed to believe something better than what they teach you to believe.

Let me give you an example. Look at this verse (and there are many more!):

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive 1 Cor 15:22

Nearly all Pastors and Bible teachers are not allowed to believe or teach what this verse clearly says. They rationalize it away in unbelief by utterly confusing the masses about the Greek word "all". They say things like "sometimes it means this, but sometimes it means that". Does God or truth change?

If they actually believed this verse, the truth of their false doctrine of Hell would be destroyed. But, this will happen at the end of the ages. They will be exposed as the "false teachers" they tell their followers to fear and "stay away from". Fear is a great motivator and it causes a LOT of people to go to church and give their money.

"All" mean's "all" each and every time. It doesn't sometimes mean everyone with no exceptions and then other times mean "there are exceptions". The Greek word "all" ("Pas" Strong's #3956) always means "everyone with no exceptions". That is the TRUE "Gospel" and its very good and it's for EVERYONE! But, see what man does? He changes the definition to suit himself. That is hypocrisy. (I am sometimes guilty of this too!) "All" means "no single person missing each and every time with not a single exception".

Now, if you have surely arrived at that conclusion yourself and are convicted in your own heart plus very excited about what that verse is really saying, try telling your Pastor that. Good luck. If he doesn't believe you, you will have to leave that church. If he does believe you, HE will have to leave! They (the particular denomination or "flavor of religion") tells you the "list of things you must believe" called the "statement of beliefs". You must believe them even if scripture is contrary to them or you will have to leave. They love their "religion" while you want truth.

Are true Christians really allowed to think or are they told what they must believe?

 

[sojourner]

Sorry, I don't know what that is. Can you help me to understand what "thin justification" is?

thanks.

Post #s 228 and 229 are examples of the same. What I'm trying to get at is that you appear to want to justify why people may "feel" that they're homosexual, when, really, it's probably only that they don't "really know" who they are. And it's a thin justification, because it fails to take under consideration 1) medical/psychiatric science, 2) the depth of self-knowledge that many people have, 3) the reasons for the biblical injunctions against homosexuality, 4) the whole human being -- both "outer" and "inner" -- as equally valid and integral.

 

[sojourner]

Are Christians really allowed to think on their own or are they told what to think and believe?

I think there are both. I've never been part of (and would never be part of) a denomination that did not allow for individual differences.

If you are, try telling your Pastor when you suddenly see a verse of scripture as much better and more powerful than they are allowed to teach or believe (according to their denomination). If you are convinced in your heart, you will be asked to leave. You are not allowed to believe something better than what they teach you to believe.

I've never known a clergy person who was not "allowed" to teach, believe, or speak their truth. I've never personally known a clergy person to curtail my own truth.

Let me give you an example. Look at this verse (and there are many more!):

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive 1 Cor 15:22

Nearly all Pastors and Bible teachers are not allowed to believe or teach what this verse clearly says. They rationalize it away in unbelief by utterly confusing the masses about the Greek word "all". They say things like "sometimes it means this, but sometimes it means that". Does God or truth change?

If they actually believed this verse, the truth of their false doctrine of Hell would be destroyed. But, this will happen at the end of the ages. They will be exposed as the "false teachers" they tell their followers to fear and "stay away from". Fear is a great motivator and it causes a LOT of people to go to church and give their money.

"All" mean's "all" each and every time. It doesn't sometimes mean everyone with no exceptions and then other times mean "there are exceptions". The Greek word "all" ("Pas" Strong's #3956) always means "everyone with no exceptions". That is the TRUE "Gospel" and its very good and it's for EVERYONE! But, see what man does? He changes the definition to suit himself. That is hypocrisy. (I am sometimes guilty of this too!) "All" means "no single person missing each and every time with not a single exception".

I think this is a somewhat picayune example. I've never heard anyone argue this particular passage in this way.

Now, if you have surely arrived at that conclusion yourself and are convicted in your own heart plus very excited about what that verse is really saying, try telling your Pastor that. Good luck.

I've actually had very good luck in the listening/respect department.

If he doesn't believe you, you will have to leave that church.

That simply has never been my experience.

If he does believe you, HE will have to leave!

Nor has this been my experience.

They (the particular denomination or "flavor of religion") tells you the "list of things you must believe" called the "statement of beliefs". You must believe them even if scripture is contrary to them or you will have to leave.

I've never been part of a denomination that insists on believing certain things. I've had denominations point out, but not dictate, beliefs.

Are true Christians really allowed to think or are they told what they must believe?

I've never known anything but being allowed to think and allowing others to think.

Sounds like you need to find a different denomination...

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think we are discussing whether a person was born with a homosexual orientation or if they became one due to environmental factors.

Does it even matter though? Surely "love thy neighbour" is the point, not judging and condemning people who are different.

 

[we-live-now]

I think there are both. I've never been part of (and would never be part of) a denomination that did not allow for individual differences.

I've never known a clergy person who was not "allowed" to teach, believe, or speak their truth. I've never personally known a clergy person to curtail my own truth.

I think this is a somewhat picayune example. I've never heard anyone argue this particular passage in this way.

I've actually had very good luck in the listening/respect department.

That simply has never been my experience.

Nor has this been my experience.

I've never been part of a denomination that insists on believing certain things. I've had denominations point out, but not dictate, beliefs.

I've never known anything but being allowed to think and allowing others to think.

Sounds like you need to find a different denomination...

I understand that this wasn't your experience, but it has been mine. Try staying in most churches while believing that 1 Cor 15:22 and 2 Tim 2:4-6 (plus many others) mean that all people will be made alive in Christ and all people will be "saved" and be in "Heaven" one day. Btw, this "heaven" is right here on a newly formed, perfect Earth.

You won't last long if you really do believe it (as you won't be able to keep it to yourself). They will kick you out and label you as "deceived" and you will be rejected by all the rest of the "Christians" for believing something so good and radically different about God. This is because this truth destroys their doctrine of "hell" as forever punishment and separation from God. Who wants to admit they were severely blinded and mistaken for 2000 years and taught so many others the same?

I see others as well who are standing up for what they see and believe in God's word too. They are getting persecuted and harassed and ejected. But, that is what God's word says will happen in the "last days".

Check this article out.

The Continued Crucifying Of Rob Bell, And What It Says About The State Of Modern Christianity | john pavlovitz

My point is truly good that "all are included" no matter what you classify yourself as. If this is true, isn't this really good?

 

[we-live-now]

Does it even matter though? Surely "love thy neighbour" is the point, not judging and condemning people who are different.

No, really doesn't (in the grand-scheme of things). But that is the discussion many are having, isn't it?

Thus, if one (who believes in an all-powerful and all-sovereign God) is convinced a person can be born with a homosexual orientation, don't they then have to put the responsibility, ultimately, on God (and extend grace and kindness to the person)?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Thus, if one (who believes in an all-powerful and all-sovereign God) is convinced a person can be born with a homosexual orientation, don't they then have to put the responsibility, ultimately, on God (and extend grace and kindness to the person)?

Why not just extend grace and kindness unconditionally? I think that's what Christ would have wanted.

 

[sojourner]

I understand that this wasn't your experience, but it has been mine.

I understand that this is your experience, but it's not the experience of everyone. You're grossly overgeneralizing here, and then finding "coincidences" in prophecy. I'm a universalist, and I've found a lot of opposition to that position -- that's to be expected, because people do hold differing strong opinions. But I've experienced nothing so drastic as being thrown out of a church. I've also encountered some opposition (not nearly as much as one might think) to the stance that God is OK with homosexuality. Again, opposition is to be expected. But I don't label people as quote-Christians, or as non-Christians, just because they disagree with me.

 

[sojourner]

Why not just extend grace and kindness unconditionally? I think that's what Christ would have wanted.

Yeah, I don't see any reason for all this convoluted justification just in order to love people. Why does love require justification?

 

[leibowde84]

I understand that this wasn't your experience, but it has been mine. Try staying in most churches while believing that 1 Cor 15:22 and 2 Tim 2:4-6 (plus many others) mean that all people will be made alive in Christ and all people will be "saved" and be in "Heaven" one day. Btw, this "heaven" is right here on a newly formed, perfect Earth.

You won't last long if you really do believe it (as you won't be able to keep it to yourself). They will kick you out and label you as "deceived" and you will be rejected by all the rest of the "Christians" for believing something so good and radically different about God. This is because this truth destroys their doctrine of "hell" as forever punishment and separation from God. Who wants to admit they were severely blinded and mistaken for 2000 years and taught so many others the same?

I see others as well who are standing up for what they see and believe in God's word too. They are getting persecuted and harassed and ejected. But, that is what God's word says will happen in the "last days".

Check this article out.

The Continued Crucifying Of Rob Bell, And What It Says About The State Of Modern Christianity | john pavlovitz

My point is truly good that "all are included" no matter what you classify yourself as. If this is true, isn't this really good?

I agree with everything you've said, but you might just want to try switching to new Church. There are plenty out there (sounds like Unitarianism might be a good fit for you) that are non-judgmental and open minded. Like you said, it doesn't have to be a Christian Church.