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God and his hatred of homosexuality

Thana

Lady
Because it is so obvious. Here's my rational, in detail:

The setup:

Thana: "His problem is lust, And like money and arrogance and hatred, It can be a powerful influence and can control and ruin people's lives and become a form of idolatry."
  • Without any logical alternative, "His" obviously refers to god.
  • The quandary as I outlined is why god hates homosexuality.
  • Your answer to this quandary is god's "problem" with lust.
The reasoning, spelled out.

Now, heterosexuals lust from time to time but evidently not enough to incur god's wrath. Even if there was only one heterosexual in the world who never lusted, would it be fair for god to include this person in his condemnation of all other lusting heterosexuals by declaring that heterosexuality is an abomination and that any who practiced it should be put to death? Of course not. Not if you're going to be a fair and just god. Instead, god would simply condemn lust, just a he has.

Therefore, for a fair and just god to condemn a behavior, that behavior must always include some condemnable element. In this case the element is lust. Therefore, because god does, in fact, condemn homosexuality because of lust, all homosexuals must lust. There is no exculpatory exception such as the single heterosexual mentioned above that would stop god from condemning heterosexuality.

You asserted that God's problem is homosexuality and I countered that His problem is lust. Not that lust is why God hates homosexuals, I don't believe at all that God hates them. He loves them and says so, He loves all sinners. It is sin that God hates.

Heterosexual or homosexual, It doesn't matter. It is the committing of a sin that is the issue.

Having homosexual sex is the same as having pre-marital heterosexual sex, It's just something God doesn't want you to do and He has legitimate reasons why. But He doesn't hate you for it or send you to hell for it or punish you for it He simply advises against it and asks you not to do it for your own sake and His.

The commands concerning homosexual sex that He gave were to a people where lust, adultery and beastiality among other distasteful things were rampant, far spread and socially accepted and so He passed down laws to help teach the people of Israel morality, a sense of responsibility and self control and to give them a guideline to follow among other things. As a Christian I believe they were never meant to be permanent but to be fulfilled in Christ who is our Salvation. And even if they were meant to be permanent they were never meant to be applied to Gentiles.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Actually, my point is quite simple; to try to figure out why, exactly, god hates homosexuality.

Maybe God is a closet gay and projecting his internal conflict? Well it makes as much sense as the other explanations we hear. ;)
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Having homosexual sex is the same as having pre-marital heterosexual sex, It's just something God doesn't want you to do and He has legitimate reasons why

But what are Gods "legitimate reasons" for making gay sex a sin? I'm still not clear on this.
 

Thana

Lady
But what are Gods "legitimate reasons" for making gay sex a sin? I'm still not clear on this.

I could speculate, but we both know that the bible doesn't clarify this. Just like it doesn't clarify why one shouldn't lie or steal or cheat but no one really questions that.

A believer will understand that if God says not to do it, Then don't do it. The reasons are irrelevant. Of course this all only applies to believers.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
A believer will understand that if God says not to do it, Then don't do it. The reasons are irrelevant. Of course this only applies to believers.

I sort of get that, but it doesn't take into account the fact that the Bible was written by humans in a cultural context. The gay sex issue seems more OT than NT, I can't imagine Jesus would have made a fuss about it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You asserted that God's problem is homosexuality
Yup, and why I was very careful when I indicated what god hates: Homosexuality not homosexuals.

and I countered that His problem is lust.
Then you're addressing a whole other issue. The subject is why god hates homosexuality not that he hates lust. Lust is the reason why he hates homosexuality, which is why I took the time to point out
  • The quandary as I outlined is why god hates homosexuality.
  • Your answer to this quandary is god's "problem" with lust.
Not that lust is why God hates homosexuals, I don't believe at all that God hates them.
Neither do I, which I was careful to make the distinction. Yet you keep bringing it up.
facepalm.gif
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
If you look at the text, it says "as he lies with a woman." That could easily be interpreted as saying that bisexuality is wrong, not homosexuality, as homosexuals are not attracted to and do not "lie" with members of the opposite sex. As for Paul, he has virtually NO credibility. He never met Jesus in person, and his claim of a vision should make modern men laugh ... but, even he only spoke to those who were having sexual relations with more than one person. This is a common teaching of Christianity ... that sex outside of marriage is wrong.

The Bible is a text written by men with, at the very best, 2nd hand knowledge of Jesus' teachings. People constantly try to read what isn't there. The only type of homosexuality that is forbidden in the Bible is that which exists outside of marriage (or commitment to one person). Add in the fact that overpopulation was not an issue whatsoever when the text was written, it seem completely illogical to claim that you know anything about God's feelings about homosexuals who are committed to one other person.

The Bible says that god really hates those who commit homosexual acts.

Lev. 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Rom. 1:26-27
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even
their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise alsothe men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. "

And that's one harsh judgment: death and all. But as has been argued time and again here on RF, god doesn't necessarily hate the homosexual, just the physical intimacy (s)he shares with those of the same sex. Acknowledging this is correct---I see no reason to contest the point--- why would god be against such intimacy? Evidently he doesn't care that those of the same sex love each other, just as men and women love each other, or even that they desire and yearn for one another. Just don't go shedding your tunics and loincloths, and start rubbing up against one another. God, then, seems to have no trouble with homosexuals sharing any of emotions that occur between men and women. "Go ahead and covet your bro, just don't take it any further."

The crux of god's fury then is physical intimacy between those of the same sex: the touching of another's body for sexual gratification, in whole or in part. In as much as god endowed almost all of humanity with sexual desire; and even when apart of from the purpose of procreation he doesn't regard sexual intimacy as a no-no, I have to conclude that this isn't a bad thing in of itself. In fact, sexual gratification is a good thing! :) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . except among those of the same sex. :( So, it comes down to the actual acts of touching pee-pees or pearl diving themselves, not the purpose or outcome itself that's god's problem (god still smiles down upon sexual gratification). His problem is that a specif part of one body touches a specific part of another body. Parts, all of which he approved of when they were first designed.

So, *sigh* god

1. approves of all our body parts
2. approves of sexual gratification
3. approves of people of the same sex loving one another
4. disapproves of people of the same sex lovingly obtaining sexual gratification among themselves with their approved body parts.
Therefore, I'm asking if anyone has any idea of what is so inherently bad about touching pee-pees or pearl diving that it's worth killing someone over? Just think of how innocuous homosexual acts are (no less so than those engaged in by heterosexuals). On the other hand, a man can play in the sandbox and god's just fine with it, but if a woman dare do the same, she had better start packing for hell. And, a woman can lay some lip, but a man had better keep his mouth shut.

Looked at rationally, I just can't make any sense of it. It's almost as if god randomly decided---no reasoning involved--- "Some people are going to desire those of the same sex much more than those of the opposite sex, which is just fine. And while there's nothing wrong with attaining sexual gratification if two people are of the opposite sex, this will be prohibited of people of the same. Why? Because I don't like it, that's why. And that's that!"

Now, I know that some say that trying to divine god's ways is impossible, in which case you people may be excused from participating here. But for those who do defend god and his ways by seeking to explain them, I welcome your input.



 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Lust cannot exist inside of a committed relationship, so are you in favor of same-sex marriage? Also, there is no mention of homosexuality in the Bible at all, only homosexual acts. Sexual proclivities are merely attractions. So, why would God "hate" anyone whose homosexuality (or sexual ATTRACTION to the same sex) is not acted upon?

Yup, and why I was very careful when I indicated what god hates: Homosexuality not homosexuals.

Then you're addressing a whole other issue. The subject is why god hates homosexuality not that he hates lust. Lust is the reason why he hates homosexuality, which is why I took the time to point out
  • The quandary as I outlined is why god hates homosexuality.
  • Your answer to this quandary is god's "problem" with lust.
Neither do I, which I was careful to make the distinction. Yet you keep bringing it up.
facepalm.gif
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Of course. Why wouldn't it be OK?! I cannot imagine a merciful God who would "damn" homosexuals for no valid reason. I've been discussing this for quite some time now, and I have not heard any logical reasoning against committed homosexual relationships. There is no indication or reason to believe that our ability to procreate will be harmed or diminished in any way. There are so many children that are in desperate need of adoption and not nearly enough heterosexual couples to fill the need. I also know from personal experience that they make terrific parents as well, and, beyond speculation, no one has even presented a valid argument against this point.

So if two gay people are in a committed relationship the sex they have is fine, and not a sin?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
lol. I know, it's tough, but reasonable people like yourself have to keep forcing the religious to explain their views and eventually they will see the foolishness of their ways.

Neither can I, but we have had people here arguing that gay sex is a "sin", regardless of the circumstances. I still don't understand why.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Lust cannot exist inside of a committed relationship, so are you in favor of same-sex marriage?
As Spiny Norman points out, then sex within any kind of committed relationship, heterosexual homosexual or bisexual, can never be bad, yet god has an unqualified hatred for homosexuality, or bisexuality as you would have it. And yes, I am in favor of same-sex marriage.

Also, there is no mention of homosexuality in the Bible at all, only homosexual acts.
But, this is the definition of homosexuality as it's being used in this thread: "erotic activity with another of the same sex." (source: Merriam Webster online dictionary.).

Sexual proclivities are merely attractions. So, why would God "hate" anyone whose homosexuality (or sexual ATTRACTION to the same sex) is not acted upon?
And he isn't, just the "erotic activity with another of the same sex." Gotta pay attention to how words are used here. It isn't cricket to redefine them to suite your argument. We ain't buying it. And just to make it clear, in this thread we adhere to the following definitions:

Homosexual: those who are pretty much exclusively attracted to people of the same sex

Homosexuality
: the erotic activity with another of the same sex.​
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Sorry, I did not realize we were allowed to redefine words to fit our arguments, but good to know.

Nevertheless, according to your definitions, it is a logical impossibility for bisexuality to occur in a committed relationship between two people. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that would necessitate a third person.

As Spiny Norman points out, then sex within any kind of committed relationship, heterosexual homosexual or bisexual, can never be bad, yet god has an unqualified hatred for homosexuality, or bisexuality as you would have it. And yes, I am in favor of same-sex marriage.

But, this is the definition of homosexuality as it's being used in this thread: "erotic activity with another of the same sex." (source: Merriam Webster online dictionary.).

And he isn't, just the "erotic activity with another of the same sex." Gotta pay attention to how words are used here. It isn't cricket to redefine them to suite your argument. We ain't buying it. And just to make it clear, in this thread we adhere to the following definitions:

Homosexual: those who are pretty much exclusively attracted to people of the same sex

Homosexuality
: the erotic activity with another of the same sex.​
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
So, according to your definition of "lust" there is not action needed (see definition provided from dictionary.com), but it is still sinful? I just don't think that could be the case.

I take your point here, but I think some people use the word in a particular Biblical way where it has a pejorative meaning.
Something like No. 2 here: Lust | Define Lust at Dictionary.com
Though of course that could apply to heterosexual sex as well.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I could speculate, but we both know that the bible doesn't clarify this. Just like it doesn't clarify why one shouldn't lie or steal or cheat but no one really questions that.

A believer will understand that if God says not to do it, Then don't do it. The reasons are irrelevant. Of course this all only applies to believers.
So... you're guessing that "God has a legitimate reason." IOW, when you do a literalistic reading of Leviticus & etc. and find that "homosexuality is frowned upon," that's OK, but when the bible doesn't clarify a reason, it's simply OK to infer that there "must be one?"

It only applies to believers? So non-believing homosexuals are OK?

This is tantamount to, "but Gee, Mr. Banker! I can't be overdrawn! I still have some checks left!"
 
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