Smoke
Done here.
Of course, the Quakers had to reject Christian creeds, Christian theology, Christian sacraments, and Christian churches to get there.
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god and human rights, are they compatible?
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Of course, the Quakers had to reject Christian creeds, Christian theology, Christian sacraments, and Christian churches to get there.
I have no come back to that.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i have a hard time with that idea too...
it seems as though people were more prone to be superstitious and were not yet as educated as the common folks are now...
the age of enlightenment only happened a few hundred years ago compared to a thousand years of perpetuating folklore into becoming the basis for religious beliefs.
the rate of advancement is much faster than it was just 100 yrs ago in regards to the human condition along with technology, medicine, physics and so forth...
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Religious values include beliefs about how God wants us to behave--what God condones.
Yes, and that is the whole point of doctrine. It provides the rationalizations that allow believers to turn a blind eye to all of that stuff in their scripture. I attended Sunday School as a child. I had a lot of questions about such things. The point of Sunday School was not just to teach what was in the Bible, but how to think about it.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
>God and human rights, are they compatible?
Nay, more!
That's why Baha'is have for many decades had a bumper sticker that says:
HUMANN RIGHTS ARE GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS!
Best!
Bruce
Nay, more!
That's why Baha'is have for many decades had a bumper sticker that says:
HUMANN RIGHTS ARE GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS!
Best!
Bruce
waitasec
Veteran Member
>God and human rights, are they compatible?
Nay, more!
That's why Baha'is have for many decades had a bumper sticker that says:
HUMANN RIGHTS ARE GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS!
Best!
Bruce
history reveals something very different
waitasec
Veteran Member
absolutely true...
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
I'm not talking about history: I'm speaking of reality as we see it!
Bruce
Bruce
waitasec
Veteran Member
reality is a reflection of history...and how it will affect our future
history is reality... to deny our history is to deny reality and future progress
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
You are still ignoring my point that we see human rights as a God-given reality--and hence, every person's unconditional prerogative!
Bruce
Bruce
waitasec
Veteran Member
we see human rights as a "god given" reality now...
not in our past, we looked at history and saw the error of our ways of not acknowledging human rights...
or are you implying human rights was never a reality because god did not acknowledge it then but now that he does is why we acknowledge it now?
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Bruce, human rights are an entirely human-given reality. That is what constitutions and laws establish. God doesn't legislate or enforce laws. People do.
David_2010
Member
Religion and Human Rights are compatible (I've just recently graduated in Human Rights, so, I've done various things on this). Many Humn Right abuses have been carried out in the name of religion, or God (or Gods), but, many religious people have used their religion and God(s) to promote Human Rights. For example, while in Ameica, slave owners did use the Bible to promote slavery, there were many Priests, and other Christians, who used the Bible to campaign for an end to slavery. Buddhists, of all denominations, have a long history of promoting compassion for all beings (not just human, or even those who are exist on this physical plane of existence), Jains do not believe in harming any creature at all (and, anyone correct me if this is wrong, but, I believe some go out with mask round their mouths to prevent microbes being sucked in and dying?), there are many great Jewish quotes (from the Jewish Bible, as well as various commentaries, about being compassionate to all - women, kids, animals, etc), same for Christian, and Muslim (especially the more mystically-minded Muslims, like Rumi), etc.
I actually made notes on a subject like this for a presentation on one of my uni modules, and used a couple of great books. I'll try and dig them out, or, at least, the book titles.
IMO, anything can be used and twisted to create evil. I remember reading something about Hitler, that he was Christian to the Christians, Catholic to the Catholics, Pagan to the Pagans, Atheist to the Atheists, he even, apparantly, had Hindu supporters (look up Savitri Devi). What that shows is anything can be twisted, religion is no exception. If religion no longer existed in the world, people would still do evil (and I know Dawkins said that without religion, good people wouldn't do evil, but, that's BS, good people would still manage to commit some kind of evil, it's the nature of being human).
So, I do think God, or Gods, or religion (as religion doesn't necessarily include a belief in God(s)) are perfectly compatiable with Human Rights, as long as they're used rightly, there are, unfortunately, people who want to use them for evil, by twisting things, and appealing to our darker natures (whether you call it the Yetzer Hara like the Jews, the Shadow like Jungians, or whatever).
Also, just wanted to add, for a Jewish group that actively encourages and promotes Human Rights, see Tikkun, there are many more examples too, and I could pull up Buddhist groups, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc. I think more people of all denominatons (e.g. all religions and ideologes, including Atheists) should work together to promote Human Rights, not fight with each other about who's more compassionate or ethical. That's more ego-boosting than anything.
I actually made notes on a subject like this for a presentation on one of my uni modules, and used a couple of great books. I'll try and dig them out, or, at least, the book titles.
IMO, anything can be used and twisted to create evil. I remember reading something about Hitler, that he was Christian to the Christians, Catholic to the Catholics, Pagan to the Pagans, Atheist to the Atheists, he even, apparantly, had Hindu supporters (look up Savitri Devi). What that shows is anything can be twisted, religion is no exception. If religion no longer existed in the world, people would still do evil (and I know Dawkins said that without religion, good people wouldn't do evil, but, that's BS, good people would still manage to commit some kind of evil, it's the nature of being human).
So, I do think God, or Gods, or religion (as religion doesn't necessarily include a belief in God(s)) are perfectly compatiable with Human Rights, as long as they're used rightly, there are, unfortunately, people who want to use them for evil, by twisting things, and appealing to our darker natures (whether you call it the Yetzer Hara like the Jews, the Shadow like Jungians, or whatever).
Also, just wanted to add, for a Jewish group that actively encourages and promotes Human Rights, see Tikkun, there are many more examples too, and I could pull up Buddhist groups, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc. I think more people of all denominatons (e.g. all religions and ideologes, including Atheists) should work together to promote Human Rights, not fight with each other about who's more compassionate or ethical. That's more ego-boosting than anything.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
yes, thank you, i would be interested in reading those books... titles would be great.
i started this thread in response to "What does the Bible say about Slavery" thread where "god" or jesus never speaks against it. jc uses slavery in parables to make a point. you will find in the judeo/christian and muslim religions their god never says anything against having one person have dominion over the other. on the contrary, their scripture condones it and commands it.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
I don't see religion as being "twisted" for good or evil. It can be used for either end, but it is not itself inherently one or the other.
That doesn't seem to me to be something that Dawkins would say, so could you please provide a source for this claim? I have read passages in which he has said the exact opposite. The man has been endlessly demonized on the internet, so I am interested in primary sources, as opposed to hearsay and innuendo.
David_2010
Member
yes, thank you, i would be interested in reading those books... titles would be great.
I'll try and dig the titles out for you then
. He said it for an advert for a recent documentary he did for Channel 4 (one of the main TV channels over here) called 'The God Delusion', I never saw the programme, but, he did say it in an advert (BTW, I'm not knocking Dawkins, I think he is a really intelligent man, and, his work on evolution is probably one of the greatest (well, so far anyway)).
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Again, I must disagree: It it GOD Who creates Divine Law, and human rights as part of this!
Man-made laws may then follow, but that's a different category entirely.
Peace,
Bruce
Man-made laws may then follow, but that's a different category entirely.
Peace,
Bruce
waitasec
Veteran Member
i don't know anything about your religion, but do you believe that the bible and the quran, for instance, are the word of god?
these 2 "holy" books contain scripture that condone and command one persons dominion over the other...
i can understand where you are coming from... in terms of "divine law" but i see it as mother nature's law and sometimes it can be quite brutal, especially for the weak, and even in those instances the weaker are never subjected to the stronger but eliminated: survival of the fittest
maybe the idea of having the "right" to have dominion over the other is a weak idea and that is why this notion is in the process of being eliminated...
or maybe we'll end up eliminating our selves in the process
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Thanks for the reply. I have no way of verifying that, and your wording suggests to me that you are paraphrasing rather than quoting. His statements tend to be far more shocking when taken out of context, although you do catch him saying things about Christians that are as shocking as the things that many Christians say about atheists.
It is true that religion can cause good people to do evil, but so can a strong political ideology such as Communism or Nazism. Religion has a history of turning otherwise decent, moral individuals into those willing to commit atrocities. I can certainly imagine him saying that, and I happen to agree with the claim when put in those terms.