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God and logic

Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Maybe God got sick of not knowing whether he existed or not, so he created the laws of logic to settle the question once and for all. :D
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Heathen Hammer said:
As long as he stays out of it, it doesn't matter, does it? :D

If he comes in, then he must.
Click to expand...

I think we agree...God must play by His own rules.

But to say He doesn't matter?....as you did earlier...
To say that God does not signify?.....what about prophets?

This universe is held together by design.
If the portions fail to hold... we would see it, and our supposed 'sense' of reality would take a hard hit.

Imagine you are standing to the edge of a high place....
and the devil comes tempting....
"Go ahead...jump!....The angels will appear and no harm will come to you."

Or perhaps you would be too far from food and water....
"See this stone. It is bread for you....just say the word!"

Still, that are reports of Man, of whom the weather does obey.
A Carpenter that can walk on water.
A Fellow whose very garment can heal your ills, if you but take hold.

But that much has something to do with 'believing'.

So I take a grain of salt when I hear...."Ask what you will, and it will be done".

Do you see any logic here?
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Nope.

If he stays out, he doesn't matter
If he behaves illogically, he cannot be related to, and thus, doesn't matter.

As for the mythological non sequitur stuff... no logic there either. ;)
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
I think that's just a misinterpretation of my apathy towards certain other God's assertions.

Just as you wouldn't care about the curfew some other kid's dad put upon him. It's not your dad; so who cares?
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Heathen Hammer said:
I think that's just a misinterpretation of my apathy towards certain other God's assertions.

Just as you wouldn't care about the curfew some other kid's dad put upon him. It's not your dad; so who cares?
Click to expand...

But that lessens the discussion sharply.
Of course I don't care how my neighbor raises his kids.....

What if your gods tell you 'No!'....
Have they not done so?.....does it matter?
 
Heathen Hammer

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
In what way does it lessen the discussion, exactly?
If my Gods tell me no, I listen. Naturally.

[edit] Also, you ask if they have done so? Not really. Our lore is not made up of the stringent rules of the Hebrews, but are instead questions to make us think. They encourage us rather than demand or deny. It simply isn't the same. Half of the time we are required to use our own smarts to figure it out, as a helping hand isn't coming. There are things they personally disapprove of, and it is wise to wish to imitate the Gods ourselves, just as we would do our own fathers and mothers. Or, we don't have to. Either way, we eventually must face our Fate, and our souls will be called to defend all the universe from those who seek its destruction.

By the way he talks, your God will probably be one of them.

Can't wait.
 
Last edited:
dyanaprajna2011

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
garrydons said:
God who is unseen is evidenced by the things which are seen.
Click to expand...

That's bad reasoning. If a god was so evidenced by what is seen, then there would be no debate on it's existence. Unless you're arguing for pantheism, then you might have a point. Otherwise, a supposed being that transcends timespace cannot be evidenced by what is in timespace, unless said being is not omnipotent. It would also not be omnibenevolent, but this facet is not part of the OP. If an omnipotent god exists, then it would have no constraints, even of logic, which is absurd. I'm willing to admit for certain metaphysical realities, but an omnipotent god is not one of them.
 
dyanaprajna2011

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Thief said:
I think we agree...God must play by His own rules.

But to say He doesn't matter?....as you did earlier...
To say that God does not signify?.....what about prophets?

This universe is held together by design.
If the portions fail to hold... we would see it, and our supposed 'sense' of reality would take a hard hit.

Imagine you are standing to the edge of a high place....
and the devil comes tempting....
"Go ahead...jump!....The angels will appear and no harm will come to you."

Or perhaps you would be too far from food and water....
"See this stone. It is bread for you....just say the word!"

Still, that are reports of Man, of whom the weather does obey.
A Carpenter that can walk on water.
A Fellow whose very garment can heal your ills, if you but take hold.

But that much has something to do with 'believing'.

So I take a grain of salt when I hear...."Ask what you will, and it will be done".

Do you see any logic here?
Click to expand...

At best, the stories are anecdotal, or mere myth, at worst, fabrications. As Heathen pointed out, and I seem to think that you agreed, if god is transcendent, then, as I think Informed was getting at, there's simply no way to know, but if god is not, if he is immanent, acts in the universe, then he is bound by the rules of logic. So unless prophecy, controlling the weather, and walking on water are logical, then the stories are unreliable.
 
dyanaprajna2011

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
A thought occurred to me. Based on the OP, and what's been discussed, I think we can come to one of two conclusions:
Either:
1. God is wholly transcendent, outside spacetime, therefore, does not need to abide by the laws of logic, but as such, cannot act in the universe.
2. God is wholly immanent, fully a part of spacetime, therefore, has to abide by the laws of logic, but as such, cannot be a personal creator deity, nor can it act outside the laws of logic.
From these two statements, it's obvious to me that said deity, whichever one, is arbitrary, and is not worthy of worship, nor does it perform miracles, give laws, or pass out judgments and rewards. Some would say that god is both transcendent and immanent, but such a being is illogical, as such, would fail point #2. Such a being is not a logical paradox, but an absurdity.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
dyanaprajna2011 said:
A thought occurred to me. Based on the OP, and what's been discussed, I think we can come to one of two conclusions:
Either:
1. God is wholly transcendent, outside spacetime, therefore, does not need to abide by the laws of logic, but as such, cannot act in the universe.
2. God is wholly immanent, fully a part of spacetime, therefore, has to abide by the laws of logic, but as such, cannot be a personal creator deity, nor can it act outside the laws of logic.
From these two statements, it's obvious to me that said deity, whichever one, is arbitrary, and is not worthy of worship, nor does it perform miracles, give laws, or pass out judgments and rewards. Some would say that god is both transcendent and immanent, but such a being is illogical, as such, would fail point #2. Such a being is not a logical paradox, but an absurdity.
Click to expand...

I think you went the wrong way.

Picture yourself as the Creator.....yes you can.

To say 'I AM', some kind of reflection or echo would be needed.
Having made the universe, and it responds to your touch....but....
it does not really 'respond'.
An immediate reflection is only that....you end up talking to yourself.

The only other possibility is to form a blend between the substance and the
spirit.
Man.

So here we are trying to make sense of it all.
And that is exactly what we should be doing.
Learn all you can...then back to God you go.

Abide by logic?....of course He does.
Here you are.

Your above post appears to confuse the laws of logic with the laws of nature.
(Hence my previous post and question....a stone to bread...for your sake?)
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Heathen Hammer said:
In what way does it lessen the discussion, exactly?
If my Gods tell me no, I listen. Naturally.

[edit] Also, you ask if they have done so? Not really. Our lore is not made up of the stringent rules of the Hebrews, but are instead questions to make us think. They encourage us rather than demand or deny. It simply isn't the same. Half of the time we are required to use our own smarts to figure it out, as a helping hand isn't coming. There are things they personally disapprove of, and it is wise to wish to imitate the Gods ourselves, just as we would do our own fathers and mothers. Or, we don't have to. Either way, we eventually must face our Fate, and our souls will be called to defend all the universe from those who seek its destruction.

By the way he talks, your God will probably be one of them.

Can't wait.
Click to expand...

I think we are more akin than not.
I have no religion.....but there is an Almighty.
My fate is in my hands....for now.
 
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