God and omnipotence

[Merlin]

So what is this grand thing that God wants us to do that's bigger than being a good person and helping those in need? These requirements may be "simple" but I have a hard enough time fulfilling them, when I am honest with myself, without searching for some additional spiritual quest.

I believe that whether you choose to search for God's purpose is a personal decision. Very few do this. If you're asking me what God's purpose is for the world, I have no idea. What I do know is that if he has a purpose for me, it will be within my capability.

Helping those in need is something we all should do. I agree that can be time-consuming and very wearing. The point I was making was slightly more subtle. If God created the world, and then created us with the sole purpose of helping needy people, then it is a fairly pointless creation. To create people who have needs, and then expect the rest of the population to look after them as their only purpose in life, I think you can see is slightly futile.

So please, everybody should help everybody they can (even those who don't deserve it). Save some time for listening, and don't believe that all of this useful work is all you need to do to 'get to Heaven'.

 

[TashaN]

Sorry for the delay dear Skavau.

Assumption 1:
Let's assume that out of the 3000 people, an Atheist died in the WTC.

Assumption 2:
A Theist is killed in the WTC. The guy is also a good person. He helps and gives money to charities just like the Theist. Where does he go?

First of all you have to know that all Muslims countries around the world (including me) except Afghnistan didn't agree with what happened in the WTC and they titled the people who did that as TERRORISTS.

Secondly, i don't have the right to judge people wheher they will enter to heaven or hell because i can't even gurantee me myself that i'll enter directly to heaven just because i'm Theist or a Muslim. Only God will decide that not me, you or anyone.

The point is that as you are good to people so it's obvious to be good toward your creater instead of neglecting him.

The problem with the concept of heaven and hell is that is hard to see who goes where and for what reason. If suffering exists to teach us a lesson - then what lesson is this? If someone is shot and survives against all of the odds, and then the person who was shot assumes such is a miracle - then what is the lesson there?

If you worshipped God truly as he wanted us to do and you become a good person toward you family and your community so why you are assuming that God will not let you enter to heaven?

If it is indeed a situation created by God, then what was the meaning? I pin it down to these:

• (a) Did God want the person to be reminded of his awesome power?
• (b) Did God want to inform the person that he is special?
• (c) Is it a test to see if he/she believes in him throughout the whole ordeal?

The lesson is not because God inspired the killer to shot him "as you assumed" but the miracle is when God let him to survive after that shot.

It is reasons such as the unbalance of suffering globally, which lead me to disbelieve that all suffering is just. I cannot grasp the idea.

The suffering you are talking about is a TEST from God and it have nothing to do with being a good person or not.

You have to know that if a good person died so that dosn't mean that God hates him but maybe this a sign of love because this life is just like a break when you travel for example but our target and our home is not here but the real eternal life is after death.

 

[TashaN]

Not true. I am a Christian and do not believe God is omnipotent. Staggeringly powerful, yes, but infinitely powerful, no. That must be obvious to everybody.

Why obvious?

God created you, earth, universe.

Just think how did he even created the micro-living beings, viruses that you can't even see by plain eyes without using some instruments.

So, the one who did all this do not have infinity powerfull?

What do you expect from an infinity God to do and what is the thing that a God with a Staggeringly powerful can't do?

 

[TashaN]

Nobody, including you, has any proof about anything. All of us only have our own beliefs. Of course, you think your beliefs that fact, and they might be - but equally they might not be. You might be completely wrong, that is what is interesting about these debates, the majority of people are wrong!

excatly, but do you think that there is no way to proof that God has infinity power in case you believe in the existance of God from the beginning?

 

[lilithu]

I believe that whether you choose to search for God's purpose is a personal decision. Very few do this. If you're asking me what God's purpose is for the world, I have no idea. What I do know is that if he has a purpose for me, it will be within my capability.

So you have no idea what this grand purpose is, but you're sure that it's something that you can do. Otoh, helping people is a mundane goal, even tho it's something that is beyond our capability.

Helping those in need is something we all should do. I agree that can be time-consuming and very wearing. The point I was making was slightly more subtle. If God created the world, and then created us with the sole purpose of helping needy people, then it is a fairly pointless creation. To create people who have needs, and then expect the rest of the population to look after them as their only purpose in life, I think you can see is slightly futile.

Maybe God had no preordained purpose for creation. Maybe God created simply because that's what God does. As I've said elsewhere in this thread (or another related one), what is God without creation? Just a thought.

So please, everybody should help everybody they can (even those who don't deserve it). Save some time for listening, and don't believe that all of this useful work is all you need to do to 'get to Heaven'.

It's not that I completely disagree with you Merlin. I do believe that reflection is just as essential to the spiritual life as action. However, I see great danger in placing an illdefined spiritual goal above the physical needs of our fellow sisters and brothers. Whatever that purpose turns out to be, it cannot be at the expense of creation. You think it's pointless for God to create people with needs and expect us to fulfill them. I think it would be even more pointless for God to create people with needs and NOT expect us to fulfill them.

 

[TashaN]

Maybe God had no preordained purpose for creation. Maybe God created simply because that's what God does. As I've said elsewhere in this thread (or another related one), what is God without creation? Just a thought.

Being God that supposed to mean that he is perfect and even he dosn't need any creatures.

 

[lilithu]

Being God that supposed to mean that he is perfect and even he dosn't need any creatures.

Depends on what one means by "need." My argument would be that God exists without creation but not in the same way that God exists with creation. God by definition of the word is relational. What is father without child? What is king without subject? What is creator without created? And what is God without us? These questions are not meant to put us on the same level as God, just as king and subject are not on the same level. And king would still exist in some respect without subject. ie - if there were a person who was king and lost all of his subjects, he would still exist, but could you say that he was still "king"?

In my view of religion it is certainly a mistake to think too highly of ourselves. But it is also a mistake to think too little of ourselves, as that absolves us of our personal responsibilities.

 

[TashaN]

Depends on what one means by "need." My argument would be that God exists without creation but not in the same way that God exists with creation. God by definition of the word is relational. What is father without child? What is king without subject? What is creator without created? And what is God without us? These questions are not meant to put us on the same level as God, just as king and subject are not on the same level. And king would still exist in some respect without subject. ie - if there were a person who was king and lost all of his subjects, he would still exist, but could you say that he was still "king"?

In my view of religion it is certainly a mistake to think too highly of ourselves. But it is also a mistake to think too little of ourselves, as that absolves us of our personal responsibilities.

(IMO) if our current mind couldn't explain how God can't be needy so that dosn't mean that God need us.

before long time a go, there were some people think that the earth was flat (both religious and non-religious) but when someone proved that the earth is not flat as they may think so they get rid of him. I think if you were at that time so you were about to believe strongly that the earth is flat 100% because it's correct logically at that particular time. I guess we can't be sure of somthing releated to God unless we are so sure about it because we can't compare him to a king for example and remember that we are a tiny group living in a specific planet in the range of God's universe and we are nothing comparing to his greatness and altimate power which must surpase for sure our mind ability to be aware of everything around us.

 

[Skavau]

No problem, The_Truth. .

First of all you have to know that all Muslims countries around the world (including me) except Afghnistan didn't agree with what happened in the WTC and they titled the people who did that as TERRORISTS. Secondly, i don't have the right to judge people wheher they will enter to heaven or hell because i can't even gurantee me myself that i'll enter directly to heaven just because i'm Theist or a Muslim. Only God will decide that not me, you or anyone. The point is that as you are good to people so it's obvious to be good toward your creater instead of neglecting him.

I wasn't implying that Muslims support terrorism, I'm sorry if it came off that way.

Yes, if a God exists - then he decides who goes to heaven and hell. But what does that mean? How can you can be good to your creator? Effectively, if you believe that God is omnipotent and all-knowing and the like, then what effect will our praise have on God? God doesn't need praise if he is all all-powerful - so what is the need of praising him?

If you worshipped God truly as he wanted us to do and you become a good person toward you family and your community so why you are assuming that God will not let you enter to heaven?

Well, what does God require to get into heaven? It was an example of what God could potentially be. What if, to get into heaven you had to reject God, his works and become someone who helps humanity. The test is if you will reject his word (which is the Qu'ran in this case). What if that was the true will of God?

God could be anything and could value anything.

The lesson is not because God inspired the killer to shot him "as you assumed" but the miracle is when God let him to survive after that shot.

But what does God say to other people who have been in similar or the same situations - but died?

The suffering you are talking about is a TEST from God and it have nothing to do with being a good person or not. You have to know that if a good person died so that dosn't mean that God hates him but maybe this a sign of love because this life is just like a break when you travel for example but our target and our home is not here but the real eternal life is after death.

If God is so unknowing and undefinable - then how can you know God's real agenda and test to mankind?

 

[michel]

Not true. I am a Christian and do not believe God is omnipotent. Staggeringly powerful, yes, but infinitely powerful, no. That must be obvious to everybody.

May I ask why you say that?

 

[TashaN]

I wasn't implying that Muslims support terrorism, I'm sorry if it came off that way.

It's ok

then what effect will our praise have on God? God doesn't need praise if he is all all-powerful - so what is the need of praising him?

Wether you praised God or not that will never affect him and it's up to you wether to obey him or not but don't forget the consequencess after death because this life is just a test for us so some people may prefer to enjoy in this life and to forget about the life after death and vise versa.

Well, what does God require to get into heaven? It was an example of what God could potentially be. What if, to get into heaven you had to reject God, his works and become someone who helps humanity.

Do you mean if you have a son would you feel great if he said to you: GET LOST !!!
I guess you will feel bad in how your son is treating you this way. Now think how God will feel when you reject him even though you are doing good deeds to others while he is the most important one to do good deed to in order to win his forgivness and his heaven.

The test is if you will reject his word (which is the Qu'ran in this case). What if that was the true will of God?

If you are talking about Quran so God said:

[56] "I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me". (Quran 51:56)

[38] "There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end". (Quran 6:37)

I guess it's nonsense to tell people to follow certain raod then to change his mind.

But what does God say to other people who have been in similar or the same situations - but died?

It's ok if they died because this life is just temporary and the real life is waiting for us after death.

If God is so unknowing and undefinable - then how can you know God's real agenda and test to mankind?

If you mean me so i found all my answers in Quran but in general the nature is full of secrets and miracles which may guide you one day to the real path of God.

[53] "Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?" (Quran 41:52)

That means God is telling us to observe how perfect we are in terms of creation so why would we neglect his existance?

[21] "As also in your own selves: will ye not then see?"

[22] "And in heaven is your Sustenance, as (also) that which ye are promised".


[23] "Then, by the Lord of heaven and earth, this is the very Truth, as much as the fact that ye can speak intelligently to each other".
(Quran 51:20-23)

 

[Katzpur]

Who set God's rules? A higher God?

God himself established all of the laws that govern the universe. They are His laws, but He is bound to them – by choice. If He were not, He could not be described as “constant.” This is one of His attributes. Because He is constant, we know we can trust Him to keep His word. We can know that when He says He will do something, He will do it. Sometimes it appears that He breaks one of His own laws, and when this happens, we say that a miracle has occurred. The truth of the matter, however, is simply that He understands His laws better than we do. When He performs a miracle, He is really just operating according to a higher manifestation of natural law than we can, at present, comprehend.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't see why the Christian God couldn't have created us already progressed...if you're going to throw logic out the window to believe anyway, then why would it be impossible to believe that we were only just created and all of the memories/exeriences/history, and everything was created by God and so that we just start here in this time and progress from here....just a thought.

Hi, Michelle.

(Did I guess right?)

Technically, I believe that He could have created us in any degree of progression He wanted to. But I see the issue as concerning His purpose in creating us. To Aqualung and me, experiencing mortality is essential to our progression. We need to learn by experience to know the difference between good and evil. We need to develop the capacity to have faith in Him. And we need to learn the importance of repentance. If He had created us progressed to the point where He wants us to eventually be, there would have been little reason for Him to create us at all.

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

So, where, my friend, in the Bible, does it say that God was unable to create "already progressed" people ? - I would have thought, that as such an ardent Bible reader, you would have realized that he did created people who were already progressed - namely Adam and Eve; until that time when he 'demoted' them for being silly with apples and snakes........

God created Adam and Eve as mortals with the potential to become even greater than they started out. I believe that what Aqualung is saying is that, as God's own offspring, we have the opportunity to become godlike ourselves. He could have created us any way He wanted to, but not without entirely defeating His purpose for creating us in the first place -- which was not, incidentally, just so that He'd have a few billion playthings who would eventually sit and sing praises to Him throughout eternity. We can honor Him more fully by trying to emulate Him than by any other thing. But it is in emulating Him that we progress.

 

[Katzpur]

I think I know where you are going with this. God as a higher being would be relative to us in greatness, but finite in His own respect.

Right on! You have understood perfectly. :clap

 

[ChrisP]

Being God that supposed to mean that he is perfect and even he dosn't need any creatures.

Hi Truth

This is a very important question to me. I think that from a Human's perspective God is perfect because he a) is Immortal b) can have a physical presence if he chooses or not, if he chooses and c) because he created us.

However the second part of your statement, about the need for others (creatures), is the part that has made me question if from God's own perspective he is perfect.

Something that is perfect and serene does not need messy noisy humans to irritate him

Anyway, your thoughts on why god needs us

 

[Merlin]

you think it's pointless for God to create people with needs and expect us to fulfill them. I think it would be even more pointless for God to create people with needs and NOT expect us to fulfill them.

So you think God created the people with needs? If he did, and it is part of his plan for us to try to satisfy these needs, the logical conclusion is that needy people were created just to see who among us would bother to help them. A sort of 'entrance exam for heaven'.

There must have been less cruel tests he could have set mankind.

It never seemed logical to me that a God would create a world in which all of this pain and suffering occurs, and where he would allow this to continue even though he could solve it if he wanted to. It makes even less sense that you think he has created these people as tests for the rest of us.

 

[JerryL]

There must have been less cruel tests he could have set mankind.

You mean like what he did to Job to win a bet with Satan?

 

[michel]

Hi, Michelle.

(Did I guess right?)

Technically, I believe that He could have created us in any degree of progression He wanted to. But I see the issue as concerning His purpose in creating us. To Aqualung and me, experiencing mortality is essential to our progression. We need to learn by experience to know the difference between good and evil. We need to develop the capacity to have faith in Him. And we need to learn the importance of repentance. If He had created us progressed to the point where He wants us to eventually be, there would have been little reason for Him to create us at all.

Kathryn

Absolutely.

God created Adam and Eve as mortals with the potential to become even greater than they started out. I believe that what Aqualung is saying is that, as God's own offspring, we have the opportunity to become godlike ourselves. He could have created us any way He wanted to, but not without entirely defeating His purpose for creating us in the first place -- which was not, incidentally, just so that He'd have a few billion playthings who would eventually sit and sing praises to Him throughout eternity. We can honor Him more fully by trying to emulate Him than by any other thing. But it is in emulating Him that we progress.

I couldn't agree more with your post; I just 'assumed' that when Adam and Eve were first created, they were pretty near to perfection - and subsequently went down the wrong road.........It could be an interesting concept to see them as having been created 'near perfect', but with God already knowing that they would falter at the first opportunity to sin.

Perhaps that is why I do not follow Genesis to the letter; I believe most of it is in parable format. I dare say most will disagree with me, and that is fine - I respect anyone's view.

 

[TashaN]

So you think God created the people with needs? If he did, and it is part of his plan for us to try to satisfy these needs, the logical conclusion is that needy people were created just to see who among us would bother to help them. A sort of 'entrance exam for heaven'.

(IMHO) YES.

he could solve it if he wanted to.

Excatly.