God and the Holocaust

[PVE1]

If the God of Abraham led the Israelites out of Egypt because of harsh treatments, what happened with the Holocaust? Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through? Do you think that a significant amount of Jews who had survived the Holocaust became Atheist because of it?

If there has been one thing I've struggled with in regards to God and the Abrahamic perspective of Him, it is this. Would like to hear some perspectives on it!

 

[Penumbra]

Well, from a strictly narrative standpoint (rather than a historical one), it took Yahweh 400 years or so to lead the Jews out of Egypt.

 

[dogsgod]

It was belief that caused the holocaust, a belief that Jews (read Christ killers), and homosexuals (another bible driven phobia), were the cause of Germany's woes and so had to be wiped out. The belief in God persists even now.

 

[142857]

perhaps it was allahs will...
A punishment for changing the word they were given?

 

[Nothing]

Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through?

Perhaps the Jews at this time did not ask Him to save them.

 

[Youtellme]

It was belief that caused the holocaust, a belief that Jews (read Christ killers), and homosexuals (another bible driven phobia), were the cause of Germany's woes and so had to be wiped out. The belief in God persists even now.

Don't forget the disabled and JW's.

 

[fallingblood]

It was belief that caused the holocaust, a belief that Jews (read Christ killers), and homosexuals (another bible driven phobia), were the cause of Germany's woes and so had to be wiped out. The belief in God persists even now.

I think you are overly simplifying the situation. The initial cause of tension between Jews and Christians wasn't based on the idea of Jews being Christ killers in the first place.

Jews were a minority. As history has shown, minorities are hated. If the Jews had made up a majority, or even an equal population, they would not have been the scape goat. Some other minority would have been. Which is why it wasn't just Bible driven phobias or hatreds that were persecuted during the Holocaust. To try to make this into a religious thing simply does nothing to help the situation, and certainly ignores the evidence that we have.


As for why God didn't do anything to save the Jews during this harsh and brutal outcome, one has to look back at the history of the people. This is not the first time that the Jews faced massive persecution. The OT is filled with it. After Egypt, they finally gained their promised land. After Joshua and the Elders had passed away, we see turmoil. The Jews do evil, God gives them over to plunderers, the Jews cry out to God for help, God sends a deliverer or a Judge to save them. We see this pattern occur some 12 times.

After that, the Jews gain a King, and are relatively okay. Solomon dies, the kingdom splits, and we start to see the pattern happen again. The North Kingdom first, commits evil in the eyes of God, and is latter destroyed by the Assyrians. Next, the Southern Kingdom commits evil, and then is dispersed by the Babylonians. So there is a definite pattern here of the Jews being persecuted.

And as seen, at one point, it was thought that the persecution came from committing evil in the eyes of God. It was because of the sins of the ancestors that the Jews suffered. Later, we start seeing a new idea evolve. Ezekiel is a good example of this. The new idea is that it wasn't because of the sins of their parents that they suffered, but that everyone is responsible for their own sin. The key is that one has to turn away from their transgressions and then they will live. And that God is just, and they will eventually be restored.

It was out of this idea, that God was a just god, that the apocalyptic idea arose to explain the persecution and misery that some Jews had faced. Even though they may suffer in this time, they will be repaid when the Kingdom of God is set up here on Earth.

Both of these ideas still persist to this day. However, there are also many other reasons as well. Some Jews claim that the Holocaust was a sign of the breaking of the covenant, and we are now in a time a free acceptance of the Covenant.

Another explanation I've seen is that God is not actually omniscient or omnipotent. So he couldn't have stopped what was happening, and didn't know it would happen.

Yet another explanation is that since God allows free will, bad things are naturally going to happen.

Basically, there isn't just one answer. There are many different answers. It is similar to the many answers there are to why God would allow bad things to happen.

 

[Webbster101]

I think you are overly simplifying the situation. The initial cause of tension between Jews and Christians wasn't based on the idea of Jews being Christ killers in the first place.

Jews were a minority. As history has shown, minorities are hated. If the Jews had made up a majority, or even an equal population, they would not have been the scape goat. Some other minority would have been. Which is why it wasn't just Bible driven phobias or hatreds that were persecuted during the Holocaust. To try to make this into a religious thing simply does nothing to help the situation, and certainly ignores the evidence that we have.


As for why God didn't do anything to save the Jews during this harsh and brutal outcome, one has to look back at the history of the people. This is not the first time that the Jews faced massive persecution. The OT is filled with it. After Egypt, they finally gained their promised land. After Joshua and the Elders had passed away, we see turmoil. The Jews do evil, God gives them over to plunderers, the Jews cry out to God for help, God sends a deliverer or a Judge to save them. We see this pattern occur some 12 times.

After that, the Jews gain a King, and are relatively okay. Solomon dies, the kingdom splits, and we start to see the pattern happen again. The North Kingdom first, commits evil in the eyes of God, and is latter destroyed by the Assyrians. Next, the Southern Kingdom commits evil, and then is dispersed by the Babylonians. So there is a definite pattern here of the Jews being persecuted.

And as seen, at one point, it was thought that the persecution came from committing evil in the eyes of God. It was because of the sins of the ancestors that the Jews suffered. Later, we start seeing a new idea evolve. Ezekiel is a good example of this. The new idea is that it wasn't because of the sins of their parents that they suffered, but that everyone is responsible for their own sin. The key is that one has to turn away from their transgressions and then they will live. And that God is just, and they will eventually be restored.

It was out of this idea, that God was a just god, that the apocalyptic idea arose to explain the persecution and misery that some Jews had faced. Even though they may suffer in this time, they will be repaid when the Kingdom of God is set up here on Earth.

Both of these ideas still persist to this day. However, there are also many other reasons as well. Some Jews claim that the Holocaust was a sign of the breaking of the covenant, and we are now in a time a free acceptance of the Covenant.

Another explanation I've seen is that God is not actually omniscient or omnipotent. So he couldn't have stopped what was happening, and didn't know it would happen.

Yet another explanation is that since God allows free will, bad things are naturally going to happen.

Basically, there isn't just one answer. There are many different answers. It is similar to the many answers there are to why God would allow bad things to happen.

I agree with this point but may I also point outthat it was God that lead the Hebrews into Egypt in the first place, he used the egyptions to build the Hebrews up to where they were stronger in number, he also needed a leader for them and if Moses had not been raised by the pharohs family then he would nothave been the leader he was when he lead the hebrews out of Egypt.

Now to apply this to the Holocaust, God was waiting for a strong leader to stand up and like in the Bible it was not exactly someone from the Jewish community is was the rest of the world.

Maybe I am way out in left field but I think this may be a possibility.

 

[dogsgod]

I think you are overly simplifying the situation. The initial cause of tension between Jews and Christians wasn't based on the idea of Jews being Christ killers in the first place.

Jews were a minority. As history has shown, minorities are hated. If the Jews had made up a majority, or even an equal population, they would not have been the scape goat. Some other minority would have been. Which is why it wasn't just Bible driven phobias or hatreds that were persecuted during the Holocaust. To try to make this into a religious thing simply does nothing to help the situation, and certainly ignores the evidence that we have.

It goes without saying that the Jews were the minority, that the Christians had the upper hand. It can't be over emphasized that Jews, a group of people recognized by their religion, were killed for religious purposes, purely on religious grounds by Christians. The gospel story has a Jewish mob demanding the execution of Christ. No Christians, no Jewish holocaust, and yes, it is that simple and history will be repeated if the facts are denied.

 

[fallingblood]

It goes without saying that the Jews were the minority, that the Christians had the upper hand. It can't be over emphasized that Jews, a group of people recognized by their religion, were killed for religious purposes, purely on religious grounds by Christians. The gospel story has a Jewish mob demanding the execution of Christ. No Christians, no Jewish holocaust, and yes, it is that simple and history will be repeated if the facts are denied.

So then the Jews killed in Soviet Russia were killed by who? And the persecution of the Jews, under Stalin, were fueled by what?

Also, Jews were not simply recognized by their religion. They were deemed to be a race during WWII, and the Nazis treated them as such. Their religious background did not necessarily matter, as a Jew can be an atheist, or whatever as well.

Finally, this was not a Christian movement. Christianity isn't what fueled Hitler and his Nazi regime. And that is why it wasn't just individuals who Christians had a problem with that were persecuted. It was anyone who was deemed inferior.

You really need to do some more research on this subject as what you are proposing is on the line of bigotry.

 

[arimoff]

perhaps it was allahs will...
A punishment for changing the word they were given?

excuse me? so over billion Muslims living poorly is a punishment from G-D and stop with the crap of changing the crap, no body changed anything Jews existed while all Arabs were still pagan so you are the ones who changed the words and now G-d punishing you in Afghanistan in Iraq and everywhere else.

This was one of the most hateful things i have read in a while. no wonder there is no difference between Nazism and Islam, same crap.

 

[arimoff]

Allah used his prophet Moses to lead them out of egypt. Then, after they had recieved the word of God through his prophet Moses, they changed the word and added to it so as to suite themselves. Thus becoming infidels.

the Holocaust was simply part of the slaughter to come. It has been fortold. Just rewards so to speak.
God dose not deal unjustly.

Are you justifying slaughter? if yes I will go and slaughter millions of Muslims and will call it a punishment from G-D will you feel happy?

 

[dogsgod]

It is not bigotry to blame Christians for killing Jews, it's simply a matter of observation:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.

To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922


Hitler appealed to long held anti Semitic prejudices.

 

[142857]

Are you justifying slaughter? if yes I will go and slaughter millions of Muslims and will call it a punishment from G-D will you feel happy?

I'm no muslim....slaughter whom you will.

and:
Yes, Jews existed while all Arabs were still pagan. And they changed and minupulated the word.

Which is why that very same god sent a new prophet (muhammad) and the true word, to clear up some of the mess created by the jews and the christians.

 

[arimoff]

I'm no muslim....slaughter whom you will.

and:
Yes, Jews existed while all Arabs were still pagan. And they changed and minupulated the word.

Which is why that very same god sent a new prophet (muhammad) and the true word, to clear up some of the mess created by the jews and the christians.

aha and that new prophet created an even bigger mess that is messing up everything to this day.

 

[fallingblood]

It is not bigotry to blame Christians for killing Jews, it's simply a matter of observation:
Hitler appealed to long held anti Semitic prejudices.

It is bigotry to blame the holocaust on Christians. I've already pointed out why.

What you fail to see though is that anti-semitism wasn't strictly a Christian thing. As well that Hitler was speaking in a speech, and we all know politicians say what the public wants to hear.

 

[javajo]

There is a false theology that God is done with the Jews and has turned to the church so some people let persecution take place. But God is not done with them, for Daniel's 70th week has not taken place yet. It is a period of 7 years in the last days when God turns his full attention back to the Jewish people, the church having been taken up (he that letteth will let til he is removed, the Holy Spirit in each believer). God pronounced a blessing or a curse, for obedience or disobedience, and this was times seven. It ended May 1948, and soon the Great Seven Year Tribulation will be upon the world. And God will save his people and they will turn to Christ, amen.

 

[idea]

If the God of Abraham led the Israelites out of Egypt because of harsh treatments, what happened with the Holocaust? Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through? Do you think that a significant amount of Jews who had survived the Holocaust became Atheist because of it?

If there has been one thing I've struggled with in regards to God and the Abrahamic perspective of Him, it is this. Would like to hear some perspectives on it!

Israel became a nation in 1948....
can you tell me why?

 

[142857]

aha and that new prophet created an even bigger mess that is messing up everything to this day.

Is anybody messing up the world today to any greater extent that the christian elected govt of the united states of america?

but back to the ovens:
I guess you could say that the christian god figured that 6million lives was a fair price for buying his people their county back.

Or you could say that the faithful among the 6mil were carried to their heavenly reward as soon as the shower came on, just like anybody else who dies.

Everybody dies(so far).....Sometimes it's accidental, sometimes not, sometimes it's just, sometimes it's not, sometimes you die alone, sometimes you die with 6 million of your firends.....

.....this life is fleeting anyway yes? we're just prepairing for the next? yes?
So it all comes down to who was right with "god" on their way out.....it's for god to take you out when and how he chooses?

mysterious ways....

?

 

[1137]

If the God of Abraham led the Israelites out of Egypt because of harsh treatments, what happened with the Holocaust? Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through? Do you think that a significant amount of Jews who had survived the Holocaust became Atheist because of it?

If there has been one thing I've struggled with in regards to God and the Abrahamic perspective of Him, it is this. Would like to hear some perspectives on it!

Just on a side note, Jews in Auschwitz put God on trial for crimes against humanity and found him guilty. Then they prayed. My people are very interesting haha, but I've never heard a Jewish theist claim something as silly as God is all loving, like the Christians. Scripture even says God is vengeful.