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God and the Holocaust

Super Universe

Defender of God
If the God of Abraham led the Israelites out of Egypt because of harsh treatments, what happened with the Holocaust? Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through? Do you think that a significant amount of Jews who had survived the Holocaust became Atheist because of it?

If there has been one thing I've struggled with in regards to God and the Abrahamic perspective of Him, it is this. Would like to hear some perspectives on it!

God never interfered with humans its just that humans who wrote the Old Testament books had no other explanation for natural events so they naturally blamed them on God.

Even today natural events are called "Acts of God".
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
If the God of Abraham led the Israelites out of Egypt because of harsh treatments, what happened with the Holocaust? Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through? Do you think that a significant amount of Jews who had survived the Holocaust became Atheist because of it?

If there has been one thing I've struggled with in regards to God and the Abrahamic perspective of Him, it is this. Would like to hear some perspectives on it!

This is something that every Jew (if not others also) has to struggle with. In the end, though it is an especially egregious and horrific example, it is no more than another facet of the eternal theodicy question: why does God permit the existence of evil?

In part the tradition answers us by pointing out that God, as we understand Him, is not omnibenevolent, and thus may have had overriding reasons for permitting evil-- even especially egregious evil such as this. But the questions remains: how can this be? Omnibenevolent or not, we do believe that God loves us and cares about us-- all human beings, not just Jews; and we do believe that the covenant of Torah between God and Israel is real and meaningful to both parties.

The real answer is that we have no answer. At least, not a single, widely-accepted answer. Theodicy itself as a particularly problematic question of Jewish theology goes all the way back to the Book of Job, and many both wise and great men have written on it since, with no conclusive agreement or treatment of the problem. Many have tried their hand at post-Holocaust Jewish theology, including some of our greatest thinkers of recent years. And while they have come up with many very compelling thoughts, no single answer seems overwhelmingly satisfactory.

Many individuals have struggled with their belief in God in and after the Holocaust, having faced it themselves, or seen its effects upon parents or grandparents. And few can find it in their hearts to be critical of such struggle: how could it not affect any of us so? And some have found faith even amidst the horror. And some seek to isolate it altogether from theology, treating it as a purely human event without higher theological ramifications.

One might wish to read Elie Wiesel, Primo Levi, Reb Kalonymous Kalman Shapira (the Piazetzner Rebbe, who wrote Hasidic commentary from the depths of the Warsaw Ghetto), Yitz Greenberg, Eliezer Berkovits, Emil Fackenheim, David Blumenthal, Emmanuel Levinas, Viktor Frankl, and Hannah Arendt, all of whom wrote stunningly on the question, with responses that span a spectrum of reaction from despair to determination to hope to faith.

Theodicy is complex, more than can really be responded to on an internet forum. But the two-second thumbnail sketch of what I personally believe is that God does not intervene in the world in grandiose showy ways. He may have done so a handful of times in our earliest history, to prove Himself, to create a living memory of His self-declaration to us. But first of all, to constantly intervene in human affairs would be to effectively negate human free will. And second of all, to continuously interfere with the way that He set the universe up to function would be to negate its independent existence. So I think that, as we human beings grow and begin to mature as a species, God restricts Himself to subtle actions that do not unduly contravene human free will, or drastically rearrange the nature of Creation. I think the evil done by the Nazis was just that-- evil: malicious acts perpetrated as part of human choices. God did not do this to the Jews, Nazis did. And as for why God permitted a third of the world's Jews to be killed in the Holocaust, perhaps what we ought to be remarking on is the miraculous survival of two-thirds of the Jewish People. After all, the war could easily have gone the other way, and if Hitler had made different choices and been victorious-- even partially victorious-- the damage might have been incalculably worse, not only to the Jews, but to the whole world.
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Just on a side note, Jews in Auschwitz put God on trial for crimes against humanity and found him guilty. Then they prayed. My people are very interesting haha, but I've never heard a Jewish theist claim something as silly as God is all loving, like the Christians. Scripture even says God is vengeful.

Is that a joke ? Never heard about that.

If the God of Abraham led the Israelites out of Egypt because of harsh treatments, what happened with the Holocaust? Why didn't God do anything to save the Jews from what they were going through? Do you think that a significant amount of Jews who had survived the Holocaust became Atheist because of it?

If there has been one thing I've struggled with in regards to God and the Abrahamic perspective of Him, it is this. Would like to hear some perspectives on it!

I think that it's not in that way that you must think (i mean if you believe in God of course).

Here is my point of view as a muslim.

You have made a parallele with Moses.
Well, when Moses came (to talk with Pharaoe as God asked him), the times were already hard for the Isrealites.

28.4 Indeed, Pharaoh exalted himself in the land and made its people into factions, oppressing a sector among them, slaughtering their [newborn] sons and keeping their females alive. Indeed, he was of the corrupters.

After that he deafeted Pharaoe and the magicians it became worse for the Israelites.

7.127 And the eminent among the people of Pharaoh said," Will you leave Moses and his people to cause corruption in the land and abandon you and your gods?" [Pharaoh] said, "We will kill their sons and keep their women alive; and indeed, we are subjugators over them."

You can make a parallele with what happened to them with Hitler. They were'nt very loved (i don't know very much about jews in that time thought) and after happened the Hollocaust.

So, let's back to what happen to Israelites in the time of Moses. How they acted.

7.128 Said Moses to his people, "Seek help through Allah and be patient. Indeed, the earth belongs to Allah . He causes to inherit it whom He wills of His servants. And the [best] outcome is for the righteous."

7.129 They said, "We have been harmed before you came to us and after you have come to us." He said, "Perhaps your Lord will destroy your enemy and grant you succession in the land and see how you will do."

Didn't God detroyed also Hitler and what the Nazis done ?

Well, I'm not happy about what happen to the Palestinians of course, but here they are.

That's why i don't understand why some of them turned into atheists.
I know what happen to them was horrible but well, I understand the things like that.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Is that a joke ? Never heard about that.

It's true. Elie Wiesel actually wrote a well-known play loosely based on the incident.

The theme of putting God on trial for abrogating His responsibilities to the Jewish People is actually one that recurs in Jewish history over the past thousand or so years. Reb Levi Yitzchak of Berdichev (one of the first Hasidic masters, 18th century) famously did so during a particularly grievous famine, and there are stories of the Hasidei Ashkenaz (the early pietists of 12th century Rhineland) doing the same in the wake of the First Crusade. There are some other examples as well, and many more apocryphal instances in midrash.

It stems from the idea put forth by the Rabbis of the Talmud, based in part on the argument of Abraham with God over the destruction of Sedom and 'Emorah and the midrashim surrounding that incident, that God Himself is subject to the moral codes He propounds to us, and to some extent even to His own laws.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It stems from the idea put forth by the Rabbis of the Talmud, based in part on the argument of Abraham with God over the destruction of Sedom and 'Emorah and the midrashim surrounding that incident, that God Himself is subject to the moral codes He propounds to us, and to some extent even to His own laws.
... and the diminished enthusiasm about Noah. It's a great example of a theology with integrity.
 

Fiddler

Lerner
It's true. Elie Wiesel actually wrote a well-known play loosely based on the incident.

The theme of putting God on trial for abrogating His responsibilities to the Jewish People is actually one that recurs in Jewish history over the past thousand or so years. Reb Levi Yitzchak of Berdichev (one of the first Hasidic masters, 18th century) famously did so during a particularly grievous famine, and there are stories of the Hasidei Ashkenaz (the early pietists of 12th century Rhineland) doing the same in the wake of the First Crusade. There are some other examples as well, and many more apocryphal instances in midrash.

It stems from the idea put forth by the Rabbis of the Talmud, based in part on the argument of Abraham with God over the destruction of Sedom and 'Emorah and the midrashim surrounding that incident, that God Himself is subject to the moral codes He propounds to us, and to some extent even to His own laws.

There is also a movie about God on trial in Auschwitz. Holocaust was because of transferring huge jewish capital into german . Everything was about the money,nothing else.

We could not have had today's Israel unless there was a holocaust.

Holocaust was bad. But it was necessary to have an Israel. Baruch Hashem now I have at least some safe country to go in case they would like to kill me like a vermit again just because I know how to trade and earn some money.
 

Fiddler

Lerner
Please do not put the word the disgusting next to G-d in a sentence. By the way telling your ideas in this way is so offending.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Anybody who thinks they can judge God isn't actually worshiping God. That's idolatry.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
What a truly feeble and disgusting God you imagine.

I don't think he meant God made the holocaust happen. Adolf Hitler made the holocaust happen, God just allowed it. It is not a problem fir Judaisn because God is not all loving.
 

Chisti

Active Member
I don't think he meant God made the holocaust happen. Adolf Hitler made the holocaust happen, God just allowed it. It is not a problem fir Judaisn because God is not all loving.

It is just as silly to subscribe to the great man theory - and conveniently ignore material conditions that lead to the holocaust. Seen in that context, a lot more people aside from hitler were responsible.
 

Fiddler

Lerner
I think that's style of mr. hawker,anyways...

İmagine the earthquakes,devastating. But if we did not have these quakes,the larger quake would have destroyed half of the planet coz a lot of energy might not stand still there forever.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
There is also a movie about God on trial in Auschwitz. Holocaust was because of transferring huge jewish capital into german . Everything was about the money,nothing else.

We could not have had today's Israel unless there was a holocaust.

Holocaust was bad. But it was necessary to have an Israel. Baruch Hashem now I have at least some safe country to go in case they would like to kill me like a vermit again just because I know how to trade and earn some money.

I strongly question both this hypothesis of motivation for the causation of the Holocaust, and its alleged theological value as a motivator for the existence of the State of Israel.

While I think I am just as ardent a supporter of Israel's existence as the next Jew, I think it was an inevitability that was only slightly hurried by our own response to the Shoah. The idea that God would have caused either with directed intent is, IMO, absolutely appalling. No God who was so callous and calculating with the suffering of his people, equating their torment with the minor advance of a nationalistic agenda, could truly deserve to be called El rachum v'chanun.

As a side note, the movie was based on the play by Wiesel.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
We could not have had today's Israel unless there was a holocaust.

Well duh of course not. The world we live in has its foundation in all the actions that were done in the past.

You could also claim that there is todays Israel because of the Mongol or Hun invasions.



Why cant we say Secularism and Holocaust?

Elaborate and stuff.
 
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