God and Worship

[rojse]

Does God desire our worship? Why/why not?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

God desires that we love Him. Worship is part of loving God, it is the natural expression of our love for him. God does not need our worship, but we might say that we need to worship Him.

I made post in response to a similar question recently, perhaps it might help here. It is my, for the time being, Augustinian reply:

God alone is the one thing eternal, immutable, self-subsistent. (Though God is not aptly understood as a thing, but for the limitations of language...)

Human beings are 'things' and the created world is compromised of "things", however, of mutable and temporary things which can be classified in hierarchy according to lifeforms, from sensless life forms, to sentient, to rational. The proper object of human love is only that which is immutable and eternal, that than which no greater thing can be conceived. Otherwise, human beings attach themselves to what is corruptible and become themselves corrupted by preferring that which is lower to what is higher.

In Augustinian thought therefore, all things that are both impermanent and loved must be loved "en-route" to God, so to speak, so that the human heart gathers all impermanent and mutable things up in itself as it bears them up towards the heavens. In this way we love God alone for his own sake, and our totally pure love for God passes through them, thereby binding them to us and to Him, and the human mind cleaves alone to perfection, yet carrying in itself the things of the world.

From this perspective, worship of God- giving him praise and glory, in a phrase, "loving the Lord your God with your heart, soul and mind"- your totality- is not necessary so that God may be appeased but so that the human being can escape the banality of a life attached to lesser and base pursuits, corrupted by corruptible things, and the mind find rest in the one eternal thing worthy of being loved for its own sake.

 

[YmirGF]

Does God desire our worship? Why/why not?

Quite frankly Rojse, I am not sure where people got the silly notion that gods want worship to begin with. Methinks it is a very shallow god that looks to his devotees for platitudes. To me, worship is a self-serving vehicle based in egotistical expectations and little more.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

YmirGF,

I think that depends largely on one's notion of divinity. If one sees human beings as the creation of God- God as Father- and see the divine being as also the "wholly other", this kind of transcendence warrants worship because He would not only be perfect in all respects- but in such a way that our [eventual] perfection would be dependent on His gratuitousness.

If, however, one sees "God" or "the gods" as all manifestations of a nature or potential which all sentient beings share, then they become guides along the path for us and not actually the goal of our journey. This would seriously alter the meaning or even necessity of worship.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Does God desire our worship? Why/why not?

If a god existed, and if he, for some bizarre reason, desired worship from a small group of primates living on a tiny planet, I think he'd make it clear to us. Why would he be so sneaky about it? Why would he want to test our faith in some ancient book of myths? Why all the secrecy and ambiguity? If he really wanted to be worshipped, he could come out and ask us for it, or even demand it from us, or just reveal himself to all of us in some way. But no, there is nothing, no evidence, no trace whatsoever of such a god. This tells me that if this god exists, he's very careful to keep himself hidden and doesn't want worship from us. Or, more likely, this god does not exist.

 

[logician]

"God desires that we love Him"

Really, why would a supernatural entity capable of creating a multiverse want the love of a hairless primate? Maybe it would prefer the love of a dolphin, or miniature schnauzer, or some alien we know nothing about.

 

[zenzero]

Friend rojse,

Does God desire our worship? Why/why not?

Show me A god and shall get you to ask him [god] the same question for the desired response.

Love % rgds

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

"God desires that we love Him"

Logician:
Really, why would a supernatural entity capable of creating a multiverse want the love of a hairless primate? Maybe it would prefer the love of a dolphin, or miniature schnauzer, or some alien we know nothing about.

True, its great, Logician, that you are so humble and self debasing on behalf of everyone, because it reminds me of something of Christianity:

It is both the audacity and paradox of the Christian religion to say that man is, at the same time, both so very great and so very small. That God, who is Himself infinitely great would become in Christ the lowest and one to be most despised, says something indeed about man who at once, before the divine light and his peers, is not only a terribly base and broken sinner, but a mere speck in the universe.

The audacity that the human being is the most precious of all creation and created to love, be loved and participate in something so very great as God.

This recalls Psalm 8:

When I consider Thy heavens, the works of Thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which Thou has ordained; what is man that Thou art mindful of him? And the son of man that Thou visitest him?
Yet Thou has made him little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor. Thou has made him to have dominion over the works of Thy hands; Thou has put all things under his feet.

Oddly enough, our apparent insignificance, the absurdity of the human race in light of the cosmos and the Divine Being is both the basis of our humility and the sheer marvel at the gratuitousness of a God interested in human affairs.

Man becomes flanked from two sides- one reducing him to mere moment in the vastness of history-and the other making him the heir to the King of Heaven and the Lord of History.

 

[sojourner]

Quite frankly Rojse, I am not sure where people got the silly notion that gods want worship to begin with. Methinks it is a very shallow god that looks to his devotees for platitudes. To me, worship is a self-serving vehicle based in egotistical expectations and little more.

Worship is not "platitudes."
Worship is the vehicle by which we allow God to create with us, such that we are transformed into God's children.

 

[Storm]

Does God desire our worship? Why/why not?

Doubtful. If it does, it should make itself more clear.

 

[sojourner]

If a god existed, and if he, for some bizarre reason, desired worship from a small group of primates living on a tiny planet, I think he'd make it clear to us. Why would he be so sneaky about it? Why would he want to test our faith in some ancient book of myths? Why all the secrecy and ambiguity? If he really wanted to be worshipped, he could come out and ask us for it, or even demand it from us, or just reveal himself to all of us in some way. But no, there is nothing, no evidence, no trace whatsoever of such a god. This tells me that if this god exists, he's very careful to keep himself hidden and doesn't want worship from us. Or, more likely, this god does not exist.

Y'know, God's not like the 10:00 news. God doesn't broadcast. God speaks through us. We know God desires our worship, because we who are tuned in to God, desire to worship God.
God doesn't "test our faith in some ancient book of myths." God tests our faith against ourselves, in the world in which we live.
There is evidence and trace of God. You just choose not to see it.
God is not hidden, but is revealed through the witness of the faithful.

 

[sojourner]

"God desires that we love Him"

Really, why would a supernatural entity capable of creating a multiverse want the love of a hairless primate? Maybe it would prefer the love of a dolphin, or miniature schnauzer, or some alien we know nothing about.

But, then again, since we are the ones created in God's image, it stands to reason that it is we with whom God desires a special connection.

 

[gnostic]

God desires that we love Him. Worship is part of loving God, it is the natural expression of our love for him. God does not need our worship, but we might say that we need to worship Him.

Have you read the Exodus and other Torah literature? Or that of Judges, and 1 & 2 Kings?

In Judges, he repeatedly punished whole generation of Israelites, for worshipping other gods (idols) than him.

This is a God that demand worship. It even has a clause in the Ten Commandments to worship no other gods than him.

You shall have no other gods beside Me.

You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in heaven above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the Lord am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me, but showing kindness to the thousandth generation of those who love Me, and keep my commandment.

It is quite clear here that he demands worship (or love), or else he would punish not only you, but your children, and children's children to the 4th generation.

An in bold, "For I the Lord am an impassioned God" could read that as being "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God", as is the case with King James version.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Y'know, God's not like the 10:00 news. God doesn't broadcast. God speaks through us.

Maybe this god should give broadcasting a shot. If he really wanted to be known, I'm sure he could figure out a way to reveal himself to everyone.

We know God desires our worship, because we who are tuned in to God, desire to worship God.

Just because you desire to worship a god, does not necessarily mean there is a god that desires to be worshipped.

God doesn't "test our faith in some ancient book of myths." God tests our faith against ourselves, in the world in which we live.

Why would this god keep himself hidden and test us to see if we believe in him? If he wanted to be worshipped, I think he'd reveal himself (if he existed).

There is evidence and trace of God. You just choose not to see it.

Or maybe there is no evidence of this god, and you just choose to see it. What is the evidence, by the way? I'd love to hear it.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Have you read the Exodus and other Torah literature? Or that of Judges, and 1 & 2 Kings?

Yes, of course.

It is quite clear here that he demands worship (or love), or else he would punish not only you, but your children, and children's children to the 4th generation.

I would say, from a catholic and Patristic perspective, you are taking these texts at far too externally or at face value.

When we fail to worship God we fail to find ourselves, for our heart is only quiet when it rests in him. Our priorities fall apart and we become entangled in lower things and neglect the higher.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Further, we might say that the "punishment" spoken of in the Torah is self inflicted- it arises out of the neglect of worship which is also a neglect of human nature and the Truth. It penetrates through the generations because a people that fails to acknowledge God will eventually create a culture that is unable to transcend that society and will become a spiritual toxin to their subsequent generations.

 

[rojse]

Doubtful. If it does, it should make itself more clear.

Perhaps the opaqueness is deliberate.

 

[Storm]

Perhaps the opaqueness is deliberate.

Perhaps, but I can't think of any motive that's compatible with being worthy of worship.

 

[rojse]

Perhaps, but I can't think of any motive that's compatible with being worthy of worship.

Neither can I, but there's that whole unknowable being thing I keep on trying to consider - just because I can't see a motive doesn't mean that there is none.

 

[Storm]

Point.